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Instrumental and byc - Polish grammar issue


Lyzko  41 | 9694  
12 Dec 2015 /  #31
Indeed, Poland, like the States, I've found to be educationally polarized! Many native Polish speakers will typically say or write "Jestem Polak" or "Ja poszłem" etc.. Lech Wałęsa was teased in the press for his poor Polish, much like "W" was teased for his poor English and whose "Bushisms" were embarrassingly legion:-)

Yet one more "wrinkle":-)
To jest książka. = This is a book.
To jest stół. = This is a table.

Both of the above are in the Nominative!

BUT
To jest dobrą książką. = This is a good book.
To jest pięknym stołem. = This is a lovely/beautiful table.

With an adjective added, both of the above are in the Instrumental!

On jest PolakIEM. (Instrumental with "być") = He is Polish.
Ona jest Polką. = She is Polish
Oni ("One" only for neuter/collective or for things, not persons!!) są PolakAMI. - Men or children only! = They are Polish.
Oni są PolKIMI. - Females only! = They are Polish.

BUT

To Polak. = That guy's Polish.
etc..

The above without "być" will be in the Nominative again.
kpc21  1 | 746  
12 Dec 2015 /  #32
This is a good book

"To jest dobra książka." or "To jest piękny stół. "will be also ok. Even better.

"To jest książką.", "To jest stołem." - it's, maybe, not gramatically incorrect (and not less correct than "To jest dobrą książką"), but it's just stupid. "To jest dobrą ksiązką." - it doesn't sound SO stupid as in the case before, but I would still say rather "To jest dobra książka".

You may say for example:
Ten samochód jest mercedesem. = This car is a Mercedes.
but you cannot say:
Ten samochód jest mercedes.
you may say, though:
Ten samochód to mercedes.
or just:
To jest mercedes.
or even shorter (but it's rarely used):
To mercedes.

[[[It's a rule in Polish usage of capital letters, that if you use a brand name in the meaning of just a single object, a single thing of the given brand, you should write it with a small letter. It's not often obeyed, especially nowadays, though. The same way, you should write: "Ten panasonic jest zepsuty" = "This Panasonic (for example a TV of the Panasonic brand) is out of order".]]]

When you use "to" with Instrumental, it works so that "to" is a pronoun replacing the subject in the sentence.

"Władca pierścieni" jest dobrą książką. = "The Lord of the Rings" is a good book.*
->
Ta książka jest dobrą książką. = This book is a good book.
(this sentence doesn't look good, normally you would rather say:
Ta książka jest dobra. = This book is good.)
->
To jest dobrą książką. = This is a good book.
(but it still doesn't look good in Polish, it's better to say:)
To jest dobra książka. = It is a good book.

[[[* - again an inclusion about usage of capital letters: in the titles of books, movies etc. only the first letter is in Polish capitalised; BUT in the names of newspapers, magazines etc. all the words begin with a capital letter]]]

In the version with Nominative, the "to" doesn't replace anything. I think it's still considered a pronoun then, from the grammar point of view, but it has, basically, a meaning "this thing".

To order it:
1. Normally after a subject (also a pronoun, like "on", "ona", "oni", "my" etc.) and a form of "to be" - "być" (jest, jesteśmy, jestem, są etc.), when you want to put a noun here, put it in Instrumental. For example:

On jest prawnikiem. -> He is a lawyer.
Ten komputer jest serwerem. -> This computer is a server.
Każdy kwadrat jest prostokątem. -> Each square is a rectangle.
2. "To" is a very special word, whithout which you could live, but it is helpful when you like to use Nominative instead of Instrumental for some reasons. Don't be afraid of it, it's used very frequently.

2a. It can replace a "standard" pronoun of the third person (use it instead on, ona, ono, oni, one), then you put the noun after it in Nominative. Another thing here is that you lose the information about the gender when you do it.

You replace:
On jest prawnikiem. -> He is a lawyer.
with:
To jest prawnik. -> This is a lawyer. (you don't know whether this is a man or a woman)
What is more, while the pronouns on, ona, ono, oni, one are restricted rather for people only, they are rarely used for things, you can use "to" safely also for things.

Having the sentence:
Ten komputer jest serwerem. -> This computer is a server.
you won't rather say:
On jest serwerem. -> It is a server. (it sounds more like: He is a server. - which doesn't make sense in English, and it also doesn't make much sense in Polish, although it makes more sense in Polish than in English, where you virtually never treat non-people as something of a masculine or a feminine gender)

(maybe when someone asks you:
Jaką rolę pełni ten komputer? -> What is the function of this computer?
you can answer shortly, neglecting the subject:
Jest serwerem. -> It's a server.
and this is totally ok, because you don't use the personal pronoun, so there is no problem with that)
It's sounds much better when you say:
To jest serwer. -> This is a server./It is a server. (I don't know which one sounds better in English, I have always problems with that; choose the one which sounds better in English for you :) )

2b. It can replace the verb "to be" - "być" when there is a noun after it, especially in the third person (otherwise it sounds bad). You replace:

Ten komputer jest serwerem. -> This computer is a server.
Każdy kwadrat jest prostokątem. -> Each square is a rectangle.
with:
Ten komputer to serwer. -> This computer is a server.
Każdy kwadrat to prostokąt. -> Each square is a rectangle.
2c. Something in between these two usages is replacing:
To jest prawnik. -> This is a lawyer.
with:
To prawnik. -> This's a lawyer.
It's not used frequently - it's usage is limited mainly to exclaimations. For example:
"Patrz, to Polak!" -> "Look, that's a Pole!"

Or in school primers, because it doesn't demand from the reader to know all the letters of which the word "jest" consists :-) For example:

"To Ala, a to Ola" (Ala and Ola are name diminutives: Ala for Alicja - Alice and Ola for Aleksandra - Alexandra)
It's enough for the child to know the letters: t, o, a and l to be able to read this sentence :-) Try to construct a sentence with the word "jest" that would use only the letters: j, e, s and t. Rather impossible.

Oni są PolKIMI. - Females only! = They are Polish.

One są Polkami.
or with "to":
To są Polki.
or:
To Polki.
also in such a way it wouldn't be very bad (but I would definitely avoid it):
One to Polki.

There is no rule that for children I would use "Oni są Polakami" and not "One są Polkami". "One są Polkami" for women/girls only (regardless of their age), and for other cases "Oni są Polakami".
Lyzko  41 | 9694  
12 Dec 2015 /  #33
A nice post, kpc21! Always good to have post infos. especially regarding grammar and such, confirmed by an educated native speaker:-)

Nice to see though, that I wasn't really off the mark eitherLOL
kpc21  1 | 746  
12 Dec 2015 /  #34
Yet about writing the titles, the proper quotation marks in Polish look so: "A title or a quotation". In the Internet they are often replaced by "", because they aren't easily accessible from the keyboard, but in handwriting you should remember about this. Also when you are using a text processor (MS Word, LibreOffice Writer, or whatever you are using), when you set it to the Polish language of the text you are writing, it will be always replacing the "" marks with "".

The same is with dashes. The "-" dash should be used only as a connector within a single word. The proper dash used as a punctuation mark between the words in a sentence, sometimes replacing a comma or a colon, is "-" (or sometimes, especially in books, even a longer version is used - so called "full pause", while this is a "half-pause"). The same is used in writing dialogues, for example between two people in a book. We don't use quotation marks for writing dialogues, as it happens in English, but only dashes. In this case the text processors also help. They replace the "-" dash with the "-" one, when it is separated from the text by spaces and you put then a word after it, and a space after this word.

I used the proper Polish punctuation in this post - even though it is written in English.

----

No, the forum software changed my proper Polish puntuation to a totally incorrect one... It should look so:

The proper Polish punctuation
Lyzko  41 | 9694  
12 Dec 2015 /  #35
kpc21,"to be off the mark", to oznaczy po angielsku "być pomyłka", "robić błąd", it had nothing here to do with "punctuation MARKS" in the literal meaning:-)

The rule then with all professions (and "być") is that the Instrumental is used, no matter what?

Marek jest tłumaczem. = Mark is a translator/interpreter.

Karolina jest aktorką. = Caroline's an actress.

etc.

Correct basically?
kpc21  1 | 746  
12 Dec 2015 /  #36
kpc21,"to be off the mark", to oznaczy po angielsku "być pomyłka", "robić błąd", it had nothing here to do with "punctuation MARKS" in the literal meaning:-)

I didn't even notice what you had written then :) This was just an addition to what I started to write about the uppercase and lowercase letters usage.

About professions, yes. And not only professions. It holds always, unless you use "to". "Marek jest tłumaczem" but "Marek to tłumacz".
KrzysiaL  1 | 3  
12 Dec 2015 /  #37
I am really impressed by these answers. O.o
Off to more studying!
Polonius3  980 | 12275  
12 Dec 2015 /  #38
What a rock

Another, possibly more common way of expressing "what a ...." is "co za...."

Co za samochód! (What a car!), Co za dzeiwczyna! (What a girl!) -- also the nominative.

The preposition za ususally requires the accusative (Podał się za milionera) or instrumental (Mieszka w domku za rzeką), but this particular construction is in the nominative.
Lyzko  41 | 9694  
13 Dec 2015 /  #39
Much appreciated, kpc21 and Polonius!
alg1993  - | 2  
15 Feb 2016 /  #40
Merged: Trouble understanding nominative vs instrumental in the Polish language

Cześć!

So, I'm having trouble learning the differences between nominative and instrumental language whilst trying to learn Polish.

My first trouble is understanding in why you would need to use one or the other in specific situations.

The other is literally trouble with differentiating a lot of sentences between which is which, other than basic words like "kim" and "czym". As well as when it is appropriate to combine the two cases in one sentence!

For instance, why is: "Leonid to mój wujek" nominative, yet: "Asia jest moją żoną" is instrumental?

Thanks!

In Polish there are two cases for which in the English language only correspond to one specific case e.g. I believe English does not have instrumental. I am looking for guidance on the differences here. If this is something that easy to understand then hopefully it should be easy to explain as I would rather ask than continue on the wrong track even if this might sound like a silly question!

Any helpful answers very much appreciated.
Vincent  8 | 799  
15 Feb 2016 /  #41
For instance, why is: "Leonid to mój wujek" nominative, yet: "Asia jest moją żoną" is instrumental?

When you use the word 'to' you use the nominative case, but if you omit the word 'to' you must use the instrumental case.
Ziemowit  14 | 3936  
15 Feb 2016 /  #42
For instance, why is: "Leonid to mój wujek" nominative, yet: "Asia jest moją żoną" is instrumental?

If this is something that easy to understand then hopefully it should be easy to explain

It is not easy to explain. I think your example is a very tricky one.

In your first sentence, it is the expression "to (jest)" that causes trouble. If you translate both sentences into English, you'll get the same stuff "Someone is my someone" for both. But for the first one the literal translation is closer to: Leonid - this/that is my uncle. In Polish you always use the nominative after "This/That is ... (To jest ...)". If the subject is a noun ("to" is not a noun) followed by the verb "jest", that verb "jest" requires the direct object of the sentence to be put in the instrumental case: Leonid jest moim wujkiem.
Polonius3  980 | 12275  
15 Feb 2016 /  #43
you must use the instrumental case

Excellent and easy-to-rememeber explanation. Do you teach (or have you taught) people Polish by chance?
Vincent  8 | 799  
15 Feb 2016 /  #44
Do you teach (or have you taught) people Polish by chance?

No I don't teach, heaven forbid. I've been learning for about 9 years now, more as a hobby.
Polonius3  980 | 12275  
15 Feb 2016 /  #45
heaven forbid

There's a Polish curse of ill-wishing that goes: "May you teach other people's children"
alg1993  - | 2  
18 Feb 2016 /  #46
Perfect, thankyou to Vincent and Ziemowit!

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