History / Poland unit in England - can anybody recognize this military uniform? [10]


Hi JGriff,

There was a forum member named "Lacznosci" who set up a website that had some wonderful photos and information. Perhaps you could get in touch with him? Cheers Dan

History / Who is this communist Polish man? [3]

Hi Adrienne,

I remember this photo. I googled and came up with the April 1982 issue - the image pops up straight away. The symbols are not the hammer and sickle however, and this fellow would have probably been a striking worker of some description perhaps. Hope this helps. Cheers Dan

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]


A pleasure


I'd venture to say that it's not just sad, but absolutely tragic.

In one of your previous posts you touched on the part the British Government had to play in this entire affair. I'd again recommend you to read the transcripts from Hansard for Parliamentary sittings for 27 and 28 February 1945 to give some background and context. The speeches for the Crimea Conference are the relevant ones.

Briefly, these are the written transcripts of what was said by Members of Parliament in England. Churchill makes an appearance, as do other handwringing apologists (including Eden, right at the end). The communist taint to some of the Members is extraordinary. Having read the transcripts, it will become apparent as to why HMG adopted the position it did with the Free Poles after WW2.


Exactly. These people who claim to live in Poland (and I very much doubt these claims) have no idea about these notions that most Poles, whatever their failings, hold dear.


I hope it will - the mention of Polish names in the opening post is certainly heartening. Western and Communist propaganda is given short shrift by Poles. Sadly, it's adopted by the usual suspects on this forum.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]

Nail on head.

I did read your previous posts and appreciate your breadth of knowledge - may I welcome you to the forum too.

I remember reading somewhere that it was either Urbanowicz or Zumbach who viewed the parade from the sidewalk. I'm sure Sosabowski would have been there too but for the fact he was probably engaged in his new employ at the factory. The imagery here is redolent of the way in which Polish service personnel were treated by HMG in the dying months of the war and post WW2.

They were of course far too polite to complain, but we haven't forgotten about it.

I wonder how the movie will deal with these uncomfortable truths. I'm sure the viewing public in the UK would be shocked at how erstwhile allies and friends were treated.


A metaphor for a closed mind? If so, a good one.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]


There's debate as to whether or not 303 squadron were even invited. So far, no one has produced primary evidence to verify matters, nor copy of the invitation, even though our resident gumshoe Harry was tasked to do this. He has claimed that a copy of an itinerary is proof, but it's not.

Without this, any claim that 303 were invited is idle speculation and mere opinion, no matter how the usual suspects care to dress it up.

The axiom that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is apt when discussing the issue of the VE day celebrations.

History / An Aussie Digger gets a medal - Polish/Australian camaraderie during WW2? [6]


Hey mate - you must be!

Please pass my compliments to your grandfather.

Cheers


Hear hear!


Isn't there mate. Never went to the Army but during my army cadet days my Coy. had two other Polish kids. It's that Polish military tradition.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]


Whilst largely correct, I think it unfair and misleading to suggest all the Brits were ungrateful to the Poles. In this forum alone there have been many British members who have expressed their gratitude for the Poles and were dismayed at the treatment of the Poles after WW2.


I'd commend you to read the Hansard transcripts for Parliamentary sittings for 27 and 28 February 1945 where the British Government's betrayal of Poland is there for all who care to read it. I've posted a thread on this some months ago.


Not just a painful memory, but an affront to honour and dignity.


Not even at the last moment - key Free Polish personnel were invited only, and only after it became apparent to HMG that the Soviets weren't attending. Naturally, such 'invitations' were politely declined.

Notwithstanding much profession to the contrary, there was, and is, no invitation to the heroes of 303.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]


It was probably vetoed by virtue of the fact that when the question was asked as to how all this was to be paid for and managed, no one could come up with an answer. These grandiose schemes all fall flat when it's realised just how much it will cost, the effort involved in running it, and the administration required to ensure that it progresses.

To my mind, why should the current generation of Poles be responsible (i.e through tax or a levy) for the actions of the Polish Communist Government? Costs aside, how would the Government propose to deal with proof of ownership of a claimant? If it's 'compensation' in terms of return of real property, what is to happen to the person who has to return it if they were a bona fide purchaser for value? What if the real property was a derelict building when confiscated then built up over the years to a piece of real estate worth in the millions and generating income? What if the owners are foreign (unless Poland prevents this).

The intent is noble and just, but it is impossible to carry out.

As an aside, is the draft of such law available online? It would be interesting to have a look at how they intended to deal with it.


Oh please, all of this happened 70 years ago mate - get over it ;). It's just victor's justice and the spoils of war. Here's a tissue champ.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]

I just really struggle to take you seriously when you say things like this mate, given your challenge ages ago to the effect that someone should have compiled a list of German civilians 'murdered' by Poles at the beginning of WW2 when the premise to your challenge ended up being totally flawed and one-sided and another prime piece of dissimulation. In essence, you seem to put yourself out as someone who is all for balance in history yet fail to practice it yourself.

This too especially when you conflate two untruths by suggesting to the effect that Poles weren't balanced in their views by virtue of Commie propaganda til The Archive stepped in and made them develop a much more balanced view. I think it goes over your head as to how patronising that sounds, quite apart from the fact that it is incorrect.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]


Thanks mate - I'd love to, but I'm in AUSTRALIA and would prefer your take on what the Germans said. Thanks in advance.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]

What did they have to say about the Prussian Homage? No need for links, just your précis of the good bits.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]


This concept too was used by the Imperial powers in the Pacific to justify their Imperialism over the indigenous populations in the C19.


I had a History text book in High School here in Australia in the 1990's. In the section on WW2, there was a picture of Polish Cavalry on manoeuvres. The caption however was to the effect of "Polish Cavalry prepare to charge German tanks" - when I pointed out that this was incorrect, I was ignored.


I haven't seen the show either, but given the endorsement by the usual suspects as to the accuracy of its portrayal, I strongly suspect it's a prime piece of cinematic dissimulation.

History / Why HMG (Her Majesty's Government) abandoned Poland to the Soviets [30]

It seems to me as though the forum members posting here have not yet had the opportunity to read the Hansard transcripts for 27 and 28 February 1945. Had they, it would be clear that it is not a question of the British failing to 'start WW3 against Russia' for the benefit of Poles - indeed, I struggle to recall any accusation on this forum that has been made by "Poles" against the "Brits" that this should have occurred. Indeed, it seems to me as though it is the slogan, and in a sense the thought terminating cliché, that the "Brits" on this forum use whenever the issue pops up. It is misconceived.

Had the transcripts been read, it ought to be realised that it is in a sense the opposite - it was (to put it simplistically) to do with a vote of no-confidence in Churchill by certain Members as a result of their protests against Churchill 'underwriting' what was in fact the Soviet takeover of Poland.


I think if you read the transcripts you'll perhaps find some uncomfortable truths there.

hansard.millbanksystems.com/sittings/1945/feb/27


Of that there is no doubt. My criticism is levelled against HMG - not the British people. The ordinary people of the UK suffered immensely in WW2 and gave 110% to the war effort. I challenge anyone here to say otherwise.

Indeed, in the transcripts there's some touching anecdotes as to the futility and hopelessness felt by the rank and file regarding the geo-political developments becoming reality at the final stages of WW2.


I'd refer you to my comments on the Czech issue ("How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer" - post 133) so as to disabuse you of your misconceptions. It will surprise you to read of Chamberlain's involvement in the whole affair. Indeed, given the simplistic and somewhat inflammatory way you've viewed the matter, an understanding of the correct factual matrix will prove a complete surprise to you.

History / Why HMG (Her Majesty's Government) abandoned Poland to the Soviets [30]


Sadly, I never had the opportunity to speak to my babcia, as she having died quite a few years before my birth, a broken and traumatised woman who never recovered from the death of her husband during the Rising in 1944.

I'm profoundly disappointed in your response to me Doug. I've also thought of you as one of the best and most reasoned contributors here, and whilst I didn't necessarily agree with everything you said, I always found what you said to be interesting and thoughtful. It seems I was wrong.

You'll no doubt have seen I've been very careful in ascribing my criticism to your Government at the time, and not the British people of the time. If such rage was sparked within you on a misconception that I'm somehow holding the Brits as a nation to account for the sell-out, then imagine how one must feel when reading about what your Government at the time thought about the Poles, and ultimately did to them in the dying stages of WW2.

I've always thought of the Brits as being the archetypes of the notion of 'fairplay'. Indeed, that notion, and those of honour and obligation, are redolent in the Hansard transcript I'd referred to in some of the Member's speeches. It seems as though from reading what happened in Parliament in February 1945, those concepts were sidelined. If you choose to champion and try to justify that reality, then at the very least make sure you identify the actual argument that you are responding to.

History / Why HMG (Her Majesty's Government) abandoned Poland to the Soviets [30]

I wasn't specifically referring to developments in 1939, but point taken. I'd still recommend reading the Hansard transcripts as they give an understanding not only of the Crimea Conference but also Teheran, and the Dumbarton Oaks conference were the UN was 'born'.

Classifieds / Warsaw (PL) Tabletop Role Playing Game Group for Expats Only. D&D Fortnightly [87]


Hey Shadow. What's the current quest your PC's are on? Have you had any PC's come into the game from this forum?

I was visiting on the weekend some of my old mates whom I used to play D&D with - we were talking about maybe getting into D&D again! We're looking at doing this over Skype or similar, as we all live quite far apart from each other, have kids etc. I dug out my old D&D books over the weekend, and guess what I found - our character sheets from about 20 years ago! Ah, the memories there! Cheers Dan.

UK, Ireland / Have the British become the worst enemy of the Polish? [45]


Nah, it was exactly as I set it out.


I never did mind Haz. Seems you do though.


A copy of their invitation, if you please, otherwise it never happened.


I'm not complaining though - just pointing out the facts. Anyways, why so defensive of the Government (of 70 years ago) of a nation to whom you're not even distantly connected to, you being an Aussie and all?

UK, Ireland / Have the British become the worst enemy of the Polish? [45]


I'd say moreso the sell-out manifested in real terms at Teheran. I've detailed my position there elsewhere on the forum if you are interested, but briefly, HMG sold Poland out to the Soviets by acquiescing to Stalin's designs on Polish territory. Otherwise, HMG also breached Article 5 of the Treaty of Mutual Assistance by virtue of failing to tell Poland of the fact that they had done so, and, more pertinently, by failing to tell Poland of Stalin's designs.

I think Molotov illustrated the perfidy best when he expressed to a stunned Mikolajczyk during discussion on Polish territories that no, Poland couldn't have Lwow and Vilno back because "all had been settled at Teheran".


Sad, isn't it.

To be fair though, certain very small elements of the Free Polish air force were invited, as well as a couple of senior officers (I think Bor was one). All eleventh hour invites mind you (something like the night before the parade), occasioned by virtue of the "Communist Polish" forces scoffing at their invitation.

Snubbed, HMG must have realised that with the absence of their new Communist friends attending, their erstwhile Free Polish friends would be slightly better than nothing. As befits such contemptible "invitations", they were politely rejected.


It wasn't "stolen" so much as held on "Trust" by HMG, who invoiced the Free Poles and deducted the Polish gold reserves held on trust in settlement of the bill.

Kind of like a situation whereby you're my friend and your house catches fire but I'm too busy to help you. But, when my house catches fire, you and your family (you're lodging with me now (but not your family) and I hold your stuff on your behalf) rush to help me put out the blaze, and, in gratitude, I take some of your stuff that I hold in payment for the hose you used and the extra water you consumed in putting out the fire to my house. Good, isn't it?


Again, in fairness, this all happened a long time ago, and should not be the sole benchmark to which modern-day Poland gauges its relationships with foreign countries. It's not "the Brits" who did this, but rather their Government at the time. I'm sure that if the average Pom had known about the absolutely atrocious way in which HMG treated the Poles, they would have been up in arms. Indeed, this sort of spirit of honour and fair play resonated with some MP's, who actually resigned in protest over the way Poland was treated.

History / The good deeds of other Nations to the Pole's [3]

Whenever I think of good deeds of other nations to the Poles, my first thoughts spring to the thousands of Irish volunteers who flocked to the cause of Poland during the insurrection of 1863.

I recall too a thread here from some time ago regarding an India Rajah who helped displaced Poles in WW2.

Life / Would getting a PW tattoo be seen as disrespectful in Poland? [7]

G'day olbeho,

Sorry to hear about what you've gone through mate. Glad to hear you've beaten your demons.

Whilst I can't speak for anyone else here (I'm an Aussie of Polish descent, whose grandad fought and died in the Rising, and whose forebears served in the Polish military for several hundred years), I think your proposed tattoo sounds pretty cool, particularly given the meaning and intent behind it. Further, I don't think it would be disrespectful at all - indeed, the fact that you bothered to come here and ask this speaks of the fact that you are nothing but respectful of it.

You seem to know the meaning and history of the symbol, and I'm thinking good on you for showing an interest - who knows, it may foster discussion and even friendships to those who see it and understand the imagery. To your English mates who see it, you can use it as an opportunity to tell them about the AK and Free Poles in WW2.

If nothing else, the visual style of the image is I think very attractive, and somewhat redolent of Polish 'slogan art' of the time, particularly some of the military unit markings in WW2.

As an aside, and with respect, a number of Polish veterans who survived WW2 themselves suffered depression (some of whom I knew), suicidal ideation, suicide and alcoholism. Some of our members here have told quite touching stories of their personal ordeals.

All the best mate
Dan

Life / Jack Strong ( Film about Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski ) [48]

Kuklinski's country was Free Poland (he was born into it, mind you), not Communist Poland. Communist Poland was an unlawfully and unconstitutionally created appendage of the Soviet takeover and occupation of Poland in the latter stages of, and after, WW2. Ergo, the "Oath" he purportedly took (which probably included a clause to the effect that he had to co-operate with the Soviets) was a construct of an unlawful regime, meaning it was not an Oath at all. But, for argument's sake, if it was an Oath, it would needs be broken to the extent that it conflicted with his over-arching obligation to Free Poland because, in law and in equity (if not 'in fact') Kuklinski's country was Free Poland, not Communist Poland.

To advocate otherwise is to turn the concepts of the rule of law and national sovereignty on their heads.

In any event, he was 'released' from his "Oath" upon the collapse of Communist Poland and Soviet Russia. Such release, in the circumstances, was retro-active by virtue of the fact that:

1. There was no-one (be it a person or entity) to whom the Oath could be upheld to as there was no-one to enforce it, nor was their any subrogation type arrangement.

2. Had the "Oath" remained binding (which presupposes there was subrogation from the Soviets, which there wasn't), the Post Communist, Free Polish Government (being the lawful and constitutional Government) would have prosecuted Kuklinski (or enforced it, but most likely issued punishment for breach), which it didn't.

Heartfelt and handwringing pleas to the concepts of honour and loyalty surrounding an Oath are just argumentum ad passiones.


No need to argue it mate - the facts speak for themselves, no matter how hard some apologists try to dissimulate.

Given the reality of 'service' to the Soviets however (i.e. you either serve or you go to jail/get shot etc.), I don't think we can stand in judgment and condemn a very great many honest Poles who had no choice other than to survive under the Communist juggernaut (save and except those 'Poles' who relished their life under Communist rule and were part and parcel of the system).

History / WW2 Civilian Forced Labourer [8]


Hi CJ,

Good to see another Aussie here. As Katheryn has touched on, after WW2 Poland was not really Poland anymore. It was controlled by the Soviets, and if you're aware of what the Soviet Union was like under Stalin, then you'll have an understanding of what it must have been like for Poles.

The simple answer is that he would have been told not to return because where he came from was under Soviet rule and if he returned he may have been imprisoned or shot. Poland was a wasteland too. I hope your dziadek had a happy life in Australia, as did many Poles who came here and forged new lives after WW2.

Perhaps it might be an idea to visit a local Polish Club? Whilst they're fast dying out, there may be a WW2 veteran there who would happily answer your questions. Cheers

History / Heroes of War: Poland (TV documentary series) [4]


Do you think there's any chance he'll ever be found?

History / Communism, was it the best form of government Poland ever had? [68]

Hey Iron,

You're quite right, and I think you should try and distance yourself from the wind-ups being attempted by PF's own version of Del Griffiths.

Can I respectfully suggest some things? Arguments predicated on things like "if not for the Soviet Occupation" whilst interesting, are counterfactual arguments, and can be easily dismissed. It's not up to you in any event to try and disprove that the Communist system was good, or did 'good' things, by reference to what free Poland did that was good, or what they may have done but for falling under the Soviet sphere. All you need to say is that Communism was bad for Poland - it speaks for itself.

Had it been 'good' for Poland then why:

1. up until the Soviet takeover, were there only a handful of actual Poles who were communist?
2. did the Solidarity movement come about?
3. was communism dismantled and left for dead?

Housing, bread, cheap cars, 'guaranteed' employment and so on seem to be put forward as examples of the 'good', but benefits should always be measured against the price paid, and balanced against the other end of the scale.

Going back to counterfactuals, you touched on Poland's dramatic progress prior to WW2 and perhaps what could have been achieved if it was allowed to exist further. What's your view on some of the things Poland would/could have achieved if it emerged from WW2 without the Soviet occupation (and perhaps having lost far less of its intelligentsia during the war)? What do you think about the political make-up of a non-Communist Poland post WW2?

History / Communism, was it the best form of government Poland ever had? [68]


I'd take whatever Jon says with a pinch of salt mate - after all, this is the bloke who tried to argue that the szlachta weren't nobility.

I think your figure of 50K is a bit light on as well mate.


Or like the person who says I want to go back to jail because at least in jail I got three squares and a roof.

History / Why did Russia attack Poland in WW2? [178]


I wouldn't smile too much mate. There could be a Polish grandfather or grand-uncle of yours who was actually an Uhlan and who could have been responsible for stemming the tide at Kutno.

Or perhaps the smiley is because a German ancestor of yours was in the vanguard of the German advance and perhaps fought an Uhlan?

In any event, it must be difficult for you having the two different 'gene pools'. Given your comments, it seems the 'German' prevails, though the 'Polish' resides in the deeper reaches, which you try to exorcise completely by coming here and making the strange comments you sometimes do (with the smiley faces to make it seem tongue in cheek). Am I far from the mark?

History / Is Jozef Pilsudski the king of modern Poles? [138]


This has been canvassed between us several times, the last of which was contained in the thread "How different would WW2 have been if Poland accepted Hitler's offer". If memory serves, the ball was left in your court after I served what may well be regarded as an ace. I'm not in the habit of bidding against myself either, so it's your turn Harry...


I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. No need to rephrase however, as I'm wholly uninterested in what you have to say.

So you agree he was a master of Realpolitik - good!

If you'd bothered to read up on the Promethean principle you'd realise it had nothing to do with Great Britain (snigger).


Cool story bro. You know them no doubt? Why don't you dredge them up from a blog to speak for you, like you did when you lost the debate on Family Law in Poland and the Hague Convention - you do remember that embarrassing incident don't you?


I'm unfamiliar with this ploy, and, in any event, I never attributed Pilsudski as being a wizard who could read people's minds to ascertain their ploys.


Okay, you've won me over. Well argued.


Sorry, I'm not sure where Germany comes into this. Could you link it in somewhere rather than springing it?