Love / Behavioral study says Poland has the lowest sexual dimorphism [17]

I don't know that the study suggests low testosterone in Polish men. The aggro responses here don't seem to support that hypothesis anyway, lol. But given a typical bell-curve distribution I don't think we can conclude that all Polish men have extremely high testosterone that's just off the charts.


I didn't present anything as fact! I found the study shocking and that's why I posted it here. I didn't post it here saying I represent the study or agree with its findings... only that I found them shocking. OK? If you gain something by contrasting my writing style with yobbish fukwit chavery, go right ahead m8.


Totally fair. I find it interesting that testosterone levels in men and women could have something to do with relationship success, and particular a preference for monogomy, especially in a country like Poland where matriarchy seems to be a lot more common. I absolutely did speculate about this.

I notice nobody has argued that the data in the study is incorrect, but people are lining up cheek by jowl to guess what my intentions were and get all snippy on that basis. It's not like I opened up my post with some sort of insult or making any value judgement, it was simply Zdzisław sh1tting up the thread as usual in order to prevent a more serious discussion.

Meanwhile the study also says that in addition to Polish males having low 2D:4D variance in relation to each other, when they are compared to Polish women there is also a low 2D:4D variance in terms of the normal difference between men and women in other countries. In other words, the 2D:4D ratios of Polish men are more similar to those of Polish women, and in other countries they are less similar. I find this interesting also.

Inb4 tons of angry responses suggesting I think that Polish men are actually women...


My "agenda"? I was out in the world, roaming, when I came across something about Poland that is genuinely interesting. Please re-read my original post and you will find no criticism of Polish males or females, or any criticism of the Polish nation or culture whatsoever. You, however, came barging in with a bad attitude like a raging bull in an antiques shop, seeing enemies everywhere (because you are insecure about something) and generally making sure we all see that there is still some testosterone left in Poland.

Brawo.

Love / Behavioral study says Poland has the lowest sexual dimorphism [17]

Zdzisław, why do you have to act like such a little ***** all the time? The study is not saying that Polish men are genetically unfit, but you're so insecure that you see enemies everywhere -- including in academia.

ShawnH seems to get the more salient point: that Polish women prefer monogomy. And that men around the world are too taken with their beauty and femininity, assuming the worst about them. Perhaps ShawnH has better reading comprehension, better control over his emotions, higher intelligence, some combination of these or even a mix of all three that should trigger in you a burning sense of envy.

Anyway, Zdzisław, what the study suggests is that Polish men have the least variance in 2D:4D ratios, making their genetic fitness highly consistent (not low quality, this is a critical difference). The speculation following that suggests that Polish women prefer monogamy, perhaps because they realize instinctively that a different man is not necessarily better than the one they have.

The blog I linked to then connects the study to speculation regarding masculinity and how men can better relate to femininity as a whole. The topic there revolves around the idea that if a man's index finger (2D) is longer than his ring finger (4D) then he was exposed to less testosterone in utero, and if the opposite is true in a woman than she was exposed to less estrogen. As I think most of us would agree, men low in testosterone and women high in testosterone are not exactly a gift to procreation and family life when paired together in a committed relationship.

Hence that Polish women are genetically advantaged by finding men with a more favorable 2D:4D ratio. Should you be able to make it all the way through, say, more than 150 pages on a single issue, check out an interesting book on this general topic by Matt Ridley called "The Red Queen".

Meanwhile, though, you demonstrate that actual meanings of things fly straight over your head, as you scare up playground insults and attempt to pore over figures from the World Bank to defend the proud Polish people against me, an assumed aggressor! Great job! You seem really smart right about now...

BTW -- did you notice the part where I said I'm with you, that white Polish men should remain the clear majority in Poland? You seem to be tortured by images of giant african sausage, that, as you put it, "haunt you every single day until you croak."

Love / Behavioral study says Poland has the lowest sexual dimorphism [17]

Like you, I very much want white Polish men to remain the absolute majority in Poland.

Also, Zdzisław, I would appreciate your counter-proof to the study. Link, please?

You are taking issue with the implied/inferred conclusion, but failing to address the actual content of the study, i.e. 2D:4D ratios between partners and their correlations with reproductive success.

(Ah -- I forgot to follow your assertion of cultural norms around here, where we love making all disagreements personal. Perhaps pointing out your decidedly-middling intellect will help get this conversation back on track?)

Love / Behavioral study says Poland has the lowest sexual dimorphism [17]

I'm not advocating anything... was just surprised by what the study says.

Love / How do Polish guys feel about having an older girlfriend/wife? [30]

Hi there Canadian Girl, I apologize in advance for the long post I'm about to write. To put my conclusion at the top: I suggest caution, and would not get too involved with him if I were you. Being his girlfriend is fine, but it would be unwise to expect a life commitment from him. Caveat: I'm not Polish. So maybe my opinion does not matter.

When I was his age and younger, I had older girlfriends, including one close to your age. For me, I got a thrill of being the boy toy and getting experience with older women who taught me how to be an excellent lover. I remember thinking to myself, wow. She isn't a girl, she is a WOMAN. Wow! =) But I always knew that I was a toy to them, and they knew the same thing.

An older partner with a younger partner is going to have to be OK with a certain amount of frivolity and immaturity, and when the man is older usually this is endearing to him because it underlines her youth. If the male is the younger one, though, it probably won't 'feel right' because, as Krakowianka describes, problems can arise if the man just isn't old enough yet to act maturely. I think this is because society expects men to be responsible and dominant, which requires real maturity. Meanwhile the relationship is being cemented, with expectations and power dynamic being solidified with a male whose brain has not yet finished developing. This why IMO nobody, male or female, should make a long-term commitment to someone who is not at least 24 years old. They just aren't fully themselves yet and usually aren't able to know what they really want out of life.

Let's play this out a bit further. In 8 years, he will be 30 and you'll be 38. Something men need to understand, but often don't, is that once a man hits 30 he usually becomes a lot more attractive to women. Whereas women become less attractive to men because of their declining looks and fertility. I don't mean this to insult you but rather to try and warn you. It's possible that you and this man could create an amazing love that will withstand the test of time, and only you/he can be the judge of that. My experience, though, suggests there's more than a small chance that he'll want to try again with someone younger, now that he'll have had, by then, some real experience in a long-term relationship. And there will no doubt be younger women out there who will want him. I say this because I've been in his shoes before.

Why is this dynamic I describe accurate? Canadian Girl, I'm not suggesting you don't know and I certainly do not wish to insult you or make any negative comment about you or your situation. Instead I'd like to explain it a bit for the benefit of all readers, especially the younger ones.

Something many women don't understand is that when they're in their 30s they often want men their own age, but they don't quite recognize just how serious an impact her age has on the decline in her looks/sexual market value. Men, on the other hand, are wired biologically to assess how many years of fertility she has left and make major life decisions based on that number. Back to the woman: the change in her was gradual, and if she's attractive she probably got used to all the interest and attention from men. Eventually she will be in for a shock, where she has to realize that she doesn't have quite the sexual market value (SMV) she had back when she was in her 20s. Even if a woman wasn't slutty in her 20s, if she was attractive she had the choice and the SMV to enforce it.

I don't want to be too harsh on women here, but because of their enormous SMV while in the 20s, they stand to lose a lot more than a man does come the 30s and beyond. But for men it is the opposite. Compare this to the typical man, who finds it hard for women to take him seriously in his 20s because he's too young: hasn't established himself, hasn't matured, and isn't ready to settle down -- unless he's in a strict religious community and is therefore willing to marry as a young man so that he can have sex. If the man is unusual in that he becomes highly successful in his 20s -- and stays that way -- well, that can be a different situation but once again such a man will have many options and it would not be in his interest to sign them away too early.

If a woman really wants a man her own age, she should lock him down while both partners are in their 20s. This represents a sacrifice on both sides: the woman is giving up the freedom/power of enjoying every last moment of her peak SMV (her 20s), whereas the man is giving up the freedom/power of enjoying his peak SMV (his 30s).

Since you are 30 now, if you just want a boyfriend, then enjoy this sweet young boy-man and don't worry about it. Build up some good memories you can enjoy for decades to come. If you think you might want a life commitment from him, though, I strongly advise that you protect your heart, and your SMV, and look elsewhere. Specifically, a man in the 35-45 age range. For a man, a younger woman is a sign of social status, and if his woman is older it is actually a negative hit to his social status unless she is conspicuously wealthy (i.e. he is 'marrying up'). Yes, he'd be older than you, but he would also be more established, mature, and reliable. You'll always be younger than him and he'll always take pride in that.

All the best and good luck!

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

Thanks, everyone....! I will be following your advice.

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

Ah, nice! I hope you have some cold beer nearby. I've done kayaking myself, it's pretty hard actually. I wasn't very good at the rescue techniques where you flip over and wave your arms above water looking for your buddy's oar... I usually have to eject and start over. Haha.

OK... so regarding the global economy, what I was trying to say there was that in the old days the man made the money and the woman ran the home. I was trying to say that these are modern times and I have no expectation of living the way families did way back then. Today, modern families are dual-earner households and men do stuff like cook, clean, and change diapers. I have no problem doing this and really I'm more organized and cleaner than she is. I don't expect her to be my maid or servant. So I do care about being manly, and meanwhile she is very feminine. We are complementary. I wouldn't say I'm fearless and never worry about things either. I just try to be balanced. I hope this makes sense and doesn't sound threatening (bcs it sure isn't intended to be)!


Good question. I'd stipulate here that he'd have to be doing/saying the same exact things that the mother is. In that case, no, I wouldn't do anything different. Which would mean my earlier statement about not taking orders from women is redundant and did not need to be said.

Which boils down to the fact that I must take your point. I was posturing to some degree and it wasn't necessary.

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

PennBoy

You amuse me, PennBoy. I've read many of your other posts around here and you have a very simple view of male-female relations. You see it as being purely about money, and that if a woman is with a man it's because of his wallet, plain and simple. You said in this thread that nobody should marry just for money, but elsewhere on PF you've contradicted yourself perfectly: that is exactly what you think. I disagree, and I disagree strongly enough to put considerable effort into attracting hot women and winning over their families anyway. If you think it's "obvious" they've figured me out, your mind is no more complex than your primitive philosophy.

I haven't bragged about myself at all on PF; haven't told you about my accomplishments, what I do, or who my parents are. Don't worry yourself about it -- I'm doing fine. I don't need to rub your face in my excellent qualities to feel better about myself. Obviously, Internet tough guys like you tend to find this pretty difficult to grasp.

Regarding your other questions: I didn't get married sooner because my mom taught me not to get married before age 30. I don't know how it is where you live, but where I grew up, girls always liked older guys because of their experience and stability. I chose to date around, build my career, and take personal risks in my 20s in order to build myself. Lo and behold, after age 30 I suddenly became a lot more interesting to attractive women with options. I was smart not to tie myself down too early. I'm used to women wanting to get married, whose families absolutely loved me, and now I've found someone that I feel ready to settle down with.

Problem?

sister act

That is an amazing story... I'm so glad you're posting here, it's like you're experiencing the same things I am, you're just further down the road. You'd probably not be surprised at what these people do. They play this game where they all work really hard and earn good money, saving as much as they possibly can, but then they shame my GF into giving them her own money so they don't have to dip into their savings for whatever monthly expense. Like some sort of sick game. Meanwhile the mother and her sisters take turns tricking their mother (my GF's grandmother) into changing her will around as they fight over their future inheritance before the grandmother is even dead yet. In my family we simply do not behave this way.

Then there's again the jealousy over my GF's life getting better since I came into the picture. You are describing pretty much exactly what I'm experiencing. I'm glad someone out there can appreciate what I'm dealing with. Thanks so much for sharing your story...


And that's once again exactly what's happening here. Her mom was quite pretty when she was younger, and my GF's sister is also very pretty. They have those long Slavic legs that Southern is always talking about, as well as everything else a man could want. But my GF is considerably more attractive then either of them, and she's also the youngest. Even my own mom (a feminist with a Ph.D.) says it is painfully obvious that the basic issue here is jealousy.

rybnik

Thanks, rybnik. I've decided this is precisely what I'm going to do. I'm also not going to wait until the drama settles down. Instead, I'm going to march in there while things are at their hottest, get the entire family together, and make peace. I'm quite the charmer and her mom is always flirting with me shamelessly; thanks to the comments here I'm building a conversation in my mind that will neutralize the sister at least long enough to meet the expectations of their family traditions.

F-stop, if you're still reading.... I'm trying to strike the right balance in my relationship with a positive masculine presence. I hope I haven't lost your support. =)

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

f stop

I think I probably over-stated my position there. I didn't mean that I rule the relationship with an iron fist, I meant specifically regarding the orders that her mother tries to hand down to me. The whole issue here is that her mother is literally telling me what to do, and tell my GF as well. That is what will never fly, and refusing to click my heels and do exactly what her mother says can't possibly mean that I'm a bad/controlling guy. We are in this relationship for ourselves, not for her or her sister. None of this "refusing to bow down to her mother" stuff would even be an issue if her sister and mother weren't working together to make trouble. And I know this is a bad sign.

Still, the fact is there's been no discussion about what I'm describing here between me/her and her mother/sister. I've been quite diplomatic and smooth the entire time, so I've given no hints as to anything controversial and there's no reason for them to have developed any worry about such things. For them it's only about them trying to figure out how much money exists on my side of the family, based mainly on how much cash I spend on them. I'm sharing my inner thoughts here on PF, not my visible behavior.

The reality is that my GF and I both work and will continue to; she wants a career and I have no problem with it, especially in today's global economy. We are very compatible and happy together. It's not about some ultra-conservative relationship where I make all the decisions and she's all humble in the kitchen. She's a strong-willed Polish woman and woe be unto me if I ever betrayed her. We do decide things together, and yes, if I feel that strongly about something important, she doesn't have a problem with me having the final word because she is not a feminist. So I apologize for getting that wrong idea across, that is my fault; I was really only trying to say that I won't let her mother or sister control our lives or dictate our value system.

I'm only trying to express my frustration with the attempts at dominance over me by the mother, which is only happening through the manipulation by the sister. Once again I apologize if what I got across here was that I'm somehow controlling over my woman or some knuckle-dragging 1950s archetype.

What I'm about is being in control of myself, making me a stable, consistent, and reliable partner in a relationship. I know how to conduct myself in a long-term relationship, how to talk about things and not be combative. I actually thought people would be more interested in my resistance to the matriarchy, but nobody responded regarding that.

Anyway, I gave the wrong impression with that defiant-sounding paragraph and I apologize.

delphiandomine

Could you please explain in a little more detail? What seems to be happening is she is choosing me over them, and I'm being aloof and not rubbing anything in their face or getting in the way. They are all avoiding each others' phonecalls and texts, it's like I have nothing to do with it whatsoever. My GF tells me all the time she is all too willing to cut off her contact with them; there are no other family members in the USA, and the ones back in Poland appear to be on our side because her mother has always been the rebel of the extended family.

What I'm wanting for is to be accepted and for them to stop being so superficial and materialistic, which is particularly frustrating because I've already been accepted by everyone officially, but over time the sister has slowly introduced jealousy into the equation because my GF has never been in a more serious relationship than the one she's in with me. One that could actually result in marriage.

Are you saying that if there's ever a disagreement between me and her family members, to just give up on the entire relationship and lifetime of marriage? Just like that? That seems unfair, as if I'm inconsequential and have nothing to offer or influence here.

sister act

Thanks a lot... it sounds like you really understand what I'm trying to say. If it weren't for this problem, my GF would be too good to be true! It's like she's perfect, except for this one thing which happens to be really major and so now all of a sudden things look pleasantly normal. Hence my post here, to try and get some advice on the cultural level. The idea you raise about approval from the extended family and the village definitely sounds familiar... especially the jealousy.

Before I came into the picture, my GF was in a bad financial situation and working 100 hours per week, and after I showed up everything has really improved. She is very happy now, and all her friends, as well as the extended family members, are on our side. It's only the sister, who has always been against us, and now lately the mother, who before was quite supportive. It really comes down to the jealousy thing. The sister is driving herself insane with envy, as she's always been the dominant older sister and very competitive, and now it's looking like she is not going to be married first.

Again I just want to apologize to everyone reading this who get the idea that I'm some sort of controlling fascist in my relationships. I promise I'm not. I am stubborn though and I resent un-just treatment from two jealous people who should be very happy about where things are going.

It's the weirdest dynamic -- when my GF is unhappy, unhealthy, and in a bad spot in life, her sister and mother blossom with joy. When my GF is happy and healthy, suddenly they become enraged with jealousy and start obsessing over ways to tear her down and make her miserable.

Chrysalis


I made a typo here. I meant to say, "We are in this relationship for ourselves, not for her mother or her sister."

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

grubas


Good story, thanks. You're right, I don't know much, and I do appreciate the lesson. As you say, some people feel the need to show off and look rich, and others don't. In my case, her mom/sister are very much that way, and I'm not. Your story doesn't help me much, though. If anything it illustrates what delphiandomine said, that blood is thicker than water (and that I cannot win).

f stop


I hope so. What worries me is how mercurial they are... one day hot, and cold the next. Her mother is quite passive-aggressive, so even if I do win her over the evil sister will be right there once I leave, twisting her against me once again. Like Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings.

One thing I wonder about, is if it will be extra impressive if I ask for permission to marry at a moment when I know the mother is particularly pissed off at me, or if I should be more careful and wait for things to blow over. I'm somewhat inclined to "call her bluff" and show up when she'd least expect it: when she knows I know she's upset. Then bust out the wódka and go for some real talk.

I'd like to try and get across to them that while I respect their values, mine are different and that's something they're just going to have to accept. I will never tell them any details about my financial assets, or any other details for that matter; I've learnt that once they have information, they will use it against me/her for their own manipulative games.

I will also not be joining the matriarchy they've established for the last three generations (and probably longer). My GF wants nothing to do with that lifestyle anyway; she knows all too well that all their marriages are in shambles precisely because the women are in charge.

Meanwhile the only one calling the shots in my own life is me, and it just so happens that my GF wants to come along for the ride. I'm not joining their family; she is joining mine. I don't want to rub this in their face at all, but, I'm not going to act submissive or bow down. And she loves this. Needs it, in fact. She wants something different for her life and that's why she chose me. Meanwhile I have to be true to myself and show them I'm a real man, and a real man does not cave in to female demands. I know they'll hate this because they are used to commanding men. BTW, among other things the mother told me (literally) that in her family, the women command the men to hand over all their money, and the men do what they are told.

LOL!

Anyway, I've experienced some of their tough talk before, and weathered it well. Regardless I shall also take your advice and avoid talking about things like the proper role of a wife. I also have some good, sad stories of my childhood to share.

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

PennBoy, I never said I had nothing, and just because I never said that doesn't mean your random guess is correct. You are right about one thing: a man with nothing to offer is out of her league. But that's not me, and it's wrong of you to suggest it so strongly with zero evidence. Just because you know some loser personally doesn't make me a loser. OK?

I'm seven years older than she is. Not a huge amount, but certainly enough to be admired by other men my age. I have a good career, a good family, and a fairly interesting life. She is an 8.5 in terms of looks (blonde, tall, gorgeous face, hyper-feminine body). People always stare at her and she gets hit on constantly. Her sweet disposition and good character, though, that pushes her up to a solid 10 from my perspective. Not only that, but she hit on me first. After that she tested me relentlessly for five months, after which she grabbed on tight and said she'd be with me forever if that's what I want.

RE: vodka.... you know, f stop, that's a great idea. I've gotten tipsy with them but never actually drunk. You've given me a good idea here. I should find not just vodka but really excellent stuff and drink it with them. I really appreciate the thoughtful advice. THANK YOU.

The main problem seems to be that I've been judged without them having the facts; they've assumed the worst about me because my woman is choosing me over them. They're so used to slapping her around and now that they're losing their grasp on her they are starting to panic.


Hehe. Fair enough. I was just trying to be empathic towards them; hopefully you can appreciate my effort (which was sincere). This family seems to fit that stereotype of wanting to look rich in order to impress the extended family back in Europe, even to the point that they cause each other financial pain in order to maintain that crucial image. For my part, I hide my family assets because that's how I was raised: that it's tacky and low-class to talk about money. This amounts to a huge cultural clash with her family, which grew up poor and now is all about looking rich.

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

f stop


Ha. Well, I posted a previous thread here about the wedding issue. I happen to know it is traditionally her family's responsibility to pay for the wedding, and the sister tried to embarrass me in front of the family by asking me how much I planned to spend on it -- on my very first visit there. So I took that as a power-challenge and turned the whole situation around to show that I have backbone.

As I said in this thread, though, I don't actually care about any sort of expensive wedding. I care about my GF and they can all go straight to hell, at her behest I might add, if they insist on being money-grubbing a$$holes.

I'm a good guy, really. I'm not Polish, and no doubt my chick is way hotter than PennBoy's anyway.

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

If I wrote a long message, you'd yawn and say tl;dr. I kept it short to help you make it easier to hurl insults, not to write a novel about my life history.

Troll.

delphiandomine


You may very well be right... though I'm not that young, actually.

Love / Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA... [39]

My GF lives with me. The sister/mother/mother's 3rd husband live together... they are miserable and we are super happy. And yes, the mother literally tells me what to spend my money on, how much to spend, and to do X/Y/Z or else I'm no longer a real man. It's hilarious to me, but it's stressing out my GF and I would rather not have to see this whirlwind of estrogen happening just because I've shown up on the scene, you know?

As for the GF's past relationships, she's had at least one serious one but it ended badly, coincidentally, after a similar round of ridiculous antics from these two. But I'm made of tougher stuff.

And sure, girls turn into their mothers... but I'm not going to turn into her father. He was a bad man and this brought out the dark side of both her mother and her sister.


That's probably what will happen. Earlier they had told me they were going to pay for a big wedding, but I don't believe them. We're probably going to do something private on my side. I shudder to think of them getting wasted, blaspheming the ceremony, and starting fights at the reception.

Language / Classical statements of love, in Polish [3]

Ha. I hope your life gets better, man.

Love / Culture of Polish people (searching for a Polish guy who is the father of my baby) [45]

This situation is becoming most unfortunate. If word gets out, we could have a very serious thread here! Folks should be careful. I wish only the best possible outcome for everyone involved, especially the kid, but Anonymous does it for the lulz...


You are awesome.


You as well. Let's hear it for some common-sense restraint.


This question is moot. If you are a good person, it's probably not possible since you would lack the intelligence to extend that kind of consideration. If you're a bad person, then you're not actually sorry deep down inside.

Love / How to ask the Polish parents for her hand in Marriage? [32]

No troll, but you've all given me some food for thought. Thanks to all. I'm sure I'll be back in future threads....

Love / How to ask the Polish parents for her hand in Marriage? [32]

My beloved cannot get enough of my sexual dominance. Yeah, I'm a perv, though I'm surprised you took my statement straight to the bedroom. Perhaps southern should chime in here with something about the insatiable hunger of Polki.

Personally, I think the strong feminine boils down to a cry for help, needing an even stronger man to step up. The problem is, there are so few of us who can. And those of us who do had better be GOOD men. Not just wannabe poseurs. Like her dad, apparently. My beloved is strong, and I am stronger. Just as it should be.

Truly, though, the notion of Matriarchy does make sense, Mary mother of Jesus and all that. I am crashing through the gates with a strong, compassionate hand. Obviously, the threat of unbridled feminism is another conversation entirely.

Love / How to ask the Polish parents for her hand in Marriage? [32]

Ahh, thanks Ksysia. It's not a true PF thread until the insults start to fly. And I am protestant, so worlds are colliding here just a bit. As for my lady, she is serious about her career but isn't a feminist. She wants me in charge and didn't enter into a relationship with me until I took charge, but that means I bear more responsibility as well. And even though she's not "religious" per se, she did go to a Catholic university, and wants the kids raised Catholic. Which I have no problem with, though it also means extremely traditional marriage vows that she will be making in front of God and everyone, to submit to me and obey, and that I must always honor, protect, love, and lead her.

The night of my drinking/swearing story was quite interesting, after dinner we went to the family room, drank some more, grilled me some more with tough questions, and then got up and danced while playing some Polish popular songs on Youtube. At first I was a little bit unsure how to react and behave but I just trusted my instincts. Later on I learned that the tough talk, drinking, and dancing associated with a big family dinner isn't unusual. In some ways I really liked it actually. It showed they love her and were testing me to see how I would handle it.

And yeah, I do figure it's totally common sense that I'm marrying the family as well..... I just want to make sure I pay the proper respects on the front end, but at the same time, establish the proper boundaries so I'm not overwhelmed by all their natural "wildness" -- which I don't mean as an insult, not at all, there's no better word I figure.

Olaf, that's an interesting story about the dinner. The only real problem I see with that idea is her sister, who is always saying and doing unpredictable, embarrassing things because she's a raging, bitter alcoholic. If we're all at dinner, it's not a short meeting, and we're trapped basically during which the sister has the capacity to ruin things as she so often tries to do. In some ways it's amusing because I have both the brainpower and the balls to handle her, but on the other hand, I want to minimize any negative impact on this particular meeting... ultimately, my beloved is somewhere between traditional and modern so if I marry her I do need to ask.

The dowry negotiation concept hadn't even occurred to me. I wonder how I could spin this. It seemed the basic notion was that a large expensive wedding was in the works. There's also been talk of two weddings, one in my country, and one in a castle back in Poland. I did some reading and found that the castle wedding is something that's considered fashionable. Hmm. One issue here is that my beloved is almost like an outcast within her own family because they're such intense, dramatic, over-the-top people and she is a lot more mellow and conservative. So the family should be thrilled I'm taking her off their hands, but sometimes I wonder if they're a little worried they won't have her around to tease and manipulate anymore.

And bimber94, I'm thinking about what you said all the time! But I want children and my beloved is so special. However you're right, basically right now I'm testing her and wanting to see if things are so great because of niceties, or if it's because we're meant to be together. Yeah, I'm a romantic so I believe the latter, but my logical mind insists I not rush into this and put her (and her family) through the paces. Just as they are doing to me.

Love / How to ask the Polish parents for her hand in Marriage? [32]

Ahhh, you're right. Thanks. I rather wonder if the mum isn't grossly over-leveraged, but then who isn't these days I guess? She had it rough earlier in life, and I respect all hard working immigrants. It really is something amazing to go to a new country, learn their ways, and build a good life there with no head start, just willpower and discipline. (I wonder if I could do the same in Poland, what an amazingly beautiful but complex-sounding language!)


Oh that's an excellent way to put it. What a great way to keep it short!! I'm feeling better already. I have a few really nice suits and will dress to the nines.

Love / How to ask the Polish parents for her hand in Marriage? [32]

Thanks, aphrodisiac..... great point about the time limit and deciding when to leave. How short is short? Like, 15 minutes?

Should I wear a suit, or is that overdoing it? One thing I have on my side is that Mama thinks I'm hot and flirts with me openly. So I could really go for the visual impact.

Love / How to ask the Polish parents for her hand in Marriage? [32]

SeanBM, thanks for the congrats and the thoughtful reply. You see right through to the core of my issue. I am indeed over-analyzing and there is no specific threat yet, per se. So yes, I am thinking of the worst case scenario and trying to work backwards from there. While I'd rather avoid getting into specifics (for all I know, her family or close friends could be members here at PF), it seems to be money driven. Like, so far I have evidence that Mama thinks it's better to lean on me to open my wallet before the womenfolk have to learn how to be responsible financially.

Fortunately, no, we won't be living in the same house. I thank the saints for that. And I will not be ruled by any woman, especially not my mother-in-law. So far my beloved is thrilled that I'm not the cowering type, as she is finding she can hide behind me in these matters.

Thanks for the specific recommendations about wine, chocolates etc. I guess I am expecting Mama to start making money demands right then and there. If so, my asking for dowry would be quite an interesting countering tactic!

Love / Love without chemistry? (Asian in love with a Polish woman) [195]

gg4


I'd say there are so few of these your point stands. As far as kids go, before any enter the picture I'd make any woman agree to paternity testing of absolutely all of them. If she says no she has something to hide, and if she says yes, you never have to worry about being cuckolded. That's how I'd try to neutralize the entire issue.

As for actual infidelities, I figure it's best to always give her the freedom to cheat. That will tend to earn you the same freedom, regardless if you ever act on that or even leave the house. It shows confidence, and that same freedom can give you confidence to be a dominant man.

So, gg4, I'd suggest that dominance can be another area you can work on. It's something that the Pure Brain can develop in many different ways. Come to think of it, rather like how Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kune Do in order to realize his personal method.

In my experience, women get wet over dominance. Once they're already turned on and warmed up, it becomes a lot easier to please them.

king polkakamon


@king:
What a coincidence. I happen to be ethnically German.

gg4


@gg4:
OK, here your logic fails. On top of your defensive tone, you suggest you are aiming for an ugly woman who is failing, apathetic, lazy, defeated, listless, and of weak character. In your defense, being a provider is a good thing, but it can be a delicate game to not make it look like you're trying to buy her, or that you have nothing else to offer.

An escape hatch for you could be to share her sexually. That means bringing alternative lifestyles into your marriage, but, it would also be like letting your kids and their friends come over and occasionally get drunk. At least the party is at your house, where you can keep an eye on things and not let them get any more out of control. I'd never do this, but then I'd be careful never to marry someone where that really could be necessary.

gg4


You suggest that if a woman prefers attractiveness or chemistry, she is merely selling out for a different kind of coin. The problem here is that a market value is only established if both sides can agree on it first. Here it seems the majority disagree with you.

My opinion is that a woman has various inputs, and the importance she places on each input depends on the individual girl. You apply to these inputs as best you can, and if you can reach that certain threshold, which only she knows (unless you can read her), you have a chance to succeed.


There is a sad irony here. The argument in this thread is focused like a laser on sex with her. Shouldn't she be equally focused on that issue, in a positive way, in order for there to be true reciprocity?

Love / Polish girls like fairy tales [25]


Southern, your posts are classic and I've learned a lot. You are for real and it's clear you know how to tell a story. Consider writing a book.

Love / Polish girls, how are they when they are in love? [86]

Pozdrowienia... This is my first post, though I've been lurking for several weeks and have been here to check stuff out a few times before that. This is a really interesting forum and I'm glad to read all the different points of view and from so many countries.

As for me, I'm an American who met a Polish girl in my native country. She moved here when she was young and has dual citizenship. I find her to be fascinating and somewhat dangerous, while still having a decent, wholesome quality. This despite also being a bubbling cauldron of lust like nothing I've seen before. Courting her, however, was an enormous headache until she was finally ready to start having sex. So, while I was dealing with the arcane intricacies of this puzzle I came here to learn about Polish culture and what the women are like. I've read so many threads that talk about the myth and legend of Polish girls and there was so much info in them, little tidbits all over the place that seem to fit the one I know so perfectly.

This thread, though, really hit home so I felt compelled to register and add my two cents. Be forewarned. =)

@M-G: In my view this girl liked you, but was testing you, where if you fail then you are unworthy. Another possibility is that she was too busy with her life to realize how good you are, and just happens to be flirty and the type of woman who gets a lot of attention. Based on your writing you don't seem like a needy type and it looks like you did the same thing I did.

In my view, the critical moment in your courtship was when you told her to go to hell for showing the sexual side of her personality at that party. The anger, the drama, you gave her was invigorating and so she rewarded you with attention. That fight when you were all wasted, got jealous, and then got knocked out? Once again, rewarded with attention. Those were big moves you made, big risks, and you were rewarded.

I also believe that if a guy puts the alpha male moves on a girl like her, at their most macho moments, like the ones in your story, at that point he has a new power in her eyes. He'll finally have a real shot of getting to the next level. In those moments, if he just grabs her and starts making out passionately the effect on her defenses can be devastating. There's a good chance she'll submit, and if you are able to get her hot and bothered, you could actually bed her. Of course, once a guy does that, she'll have a crack in her armor. She (any girl, not just a Polish one) will have given away one of the most important things she has, first time sex, something she can never give away twice. If she has any interest in him at all after that point, the recurring sex will bond her to him and it becomes much easier to get into a relationship.

Which brings me back to why I registered to actually post here. What I describe is what I achieved with the Polish girl I am currently dating. I have never dated a Polish girl, but I have heard about them and how amazing they are. Their reputation is very good around here: Beautiful, Smart, Independent, Feminine. I found this girl to be all that and more (not all of it necessarily good, by the way). I'm evaluating her to see if I want her to be an actual girlfriend, and also, I'm at the point in my life where I'm open to marriage. So I guess you could say I have a special interest in her.

M-G, your story and some of the struggles you describe really remind me of what I went through. Let me tell you about the turning point. She had cancelled on me 5 times in a row, and a couple of those involved some really bad, obvious excuses. Then she disappeared out of town for two weeks, didn't keep in touch like she said she would, then later called me while she was drunk (!). I was of course angry with her behavior and simply stopped responding -- period. I did not do what you did here, which was keep checking in with her after she ever failed to keep up her half of the push/pull game.

With all respect, this is where I think you could have turned the whole thing to your advantage much earlier. When a woman plays hard to get, I usually never communicate with her a second time until she responds. Ever. Text, call, email, doesn't matter. She will get no more than one communication from me, *unless* it's the very first time for her to respond (then I'll give her 2 or even 3 attempts). After that, it's the only way to communicate strength. I try to show that, since she insists on playing this game, I am going to hold her to it. It seems to be the only way to win. Play along, show enough sophistication, angle for an advantage, and when the time is right I take what is mine. Based on what you wrote, I'd boil down her behavior to teasing you, making you jealous, and rewarding your emotional investments in her.

Well, in my case about 6 weeks went by. I tried to not let it bother me and just forget about her, figuring it was a bad sign and not worth the hassle. Then, finally, she came back to me and was very apologetic. She then told me that she had an ex out there and was reminded of him; he dumped her hard I guess a couple of years ago. Maybe she saw him, maybe not, as she was also on a legit business trip (at least, I choose to believe this). I gave her another chance, and the whole time I acted completely normal and she never knew I was at all upset.

We continued seeing each other, but our dates were superficial for a long time. The sexual chemistry was amazing, but it all seemed to be a big tease where she always kept her distance. After enough time passed I simply asked her point blank what she'd been doing all this time, i.e. how has she been able to survive without any sex. She had no good answer and fell soon after that...

I think she is falling for me. I've met her sister, best friend, and the best friend's boyfriend, and will meet more people in her life at a party next month. She calls me every day, texts me every day. She's insanely horny and is coming over this weekend. It's almost too good to be true, but, I'm starting to detect what the catches are. As a previous poster observed, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Regardless, this woman is amazing. I'm starting to wonder very seriously what it would be like to deal with the downsides in order to keep the upsides. She is 100% Polish, by the way. And I am 100% intrigued.

So to summarize, I've seen a Polish girl go through a wide range of complex behaviors, and I believe her when she says she has feelings for me. So I'll be reading a lot more around here to learn about Polish culture and how that affects the psyche of Polish girls.

Thanks everyone for the really interesting thread...

For example, she is sneaky and lies often. When she found out I can be sneaky too, she looked quite pleased. I paid attention only to her eyes.