Behavioral study says Poland has the lowest sexual dimorphism

From the Journal of Evolution and Human Behavior, 21 (2000) 163-183:

heartiste.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/2d-4d-ethnic.gif

Poles of both sexes (on the far left) have the highest overall digit ratios in this sample, and Finnish men (far right) the lowest. Poles also show the least within-sex variance in ratios, and Finns and Hungarians the most. Intersex comparisons show that Polish women and men have nearly identical digit ratios and variance, and Finnish women are significantly more feminine relative to their male co-ethnics.

The chart suggests a low variance in the genetic fitness of Polish males, thus leading women to choose mates based on reasoning that has less to do with the man's genetic fitness. Speculation about this study on the Internet (heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/is-finger-length-ratio-evidence-of-a-womans-fidelity/)

Given that the study notes that reproductive success correlates with partners where the man has a lower 2D:4D ratio and the woman has a higher one, the implied conclusion is that Polish women are advantaged by mating with foreigners. This is suggested because amongst all the samples. Polish men apparently have 2D:4D ratios that are the most similar to those of Polish women -- which, according to the researchers, has a negative correlation with reproductive success.

Check out the study PDF as well as the blog post linked above... it's quite shocking!

Of course. It's genetically healthy in general for everyone to mate with someone outside of their ethnicity.

What a study implies and you infer are two different things. If anything it just shows wishful thinking on your part.


So how has Poland's population currently reached nearly 40 million (one of the largest in Europe) with 97% identifying themselves as ethnic Poles if their reproductive success is supposedly negative?

It is obvious that you and your fellow troll EM_Wave just hate white men in general and Polish men in particular. Hiding behind pseudo-scientific eugenic reports from places nobody has ever heard of won't fool anybody. You both need to take your inferiority complex to a psychologist.

I'm not advocating anything... was just surprised by what the study says.

Yeah right. Well, you might be surprised by the study but what isn't surprising about it is that it was written 12 years ago and didn't prove to be correct.

Unfortunately for you and your brother EM_Wave the demographic trends show that white Polish men will remain the absolute majority in Poland for generations to come. I am pleased that this fact will haunt you every single day until you croak so I sincerely hope you both will be around for a very long time.

Like you, I very much want white Polish men to remain the absolute majority in Poland.

Also, Zdzisław, I would appreciate your counter-proof to the study. Link, please?

You are taking issue with the implied/inferred conclusion, but failing to address the actual content of the study, i.e. 2D:4D ratios between partners and their correlations with reproductive success.

(Ah -- I forgot to follow your assertion of cultural norms around here, where we love making all disagreements personal. Perhaps pointing out your decidedly-middling intellect will help get this conversation back on track?)

Hmmm. The verbiage in the artical implies that Polish women are highly monogamous. Kind of flies in the face of what some around here would believe about their promiscuity, no?

Only blokes not getting laid could think women worry about the size of a mans finger.............

Counter-proof? Did you understand the report yourself? Did you actually comprehend my responses to you? No you didn't.

Let's look at your absurd study and the three ethnic groups you highlighted: Poles on one end of the graph; Finns and Magyars on the other end.

Now, let's look at the current population sizes of these three groups:

Poland: 38,187,488 (Source: World Bank, 2010)
Finland: 5,363,624 (Source: World Bank, 2010)
Hungary: 10,008,703 (Source: World Bank, 2010)

Since 1960 to the present Finland's population increased 21%; Hungary's population increased 0.25% (yes, that's zero point two five percent) and Poland's population increased 29%.

All these figures are available on the internet and you can quickly get these results yourself. I don't need to find another report that was specifically written to refute yours.

One of the other links you provided discussed this dubious study about finger length ratios and determined the differences between Poland and the other two countries was likely due to Poland having more monogamous long term relationships in society where as Finland and Hungary were likely to have more infidelity and casual mating occurring. Despite these different mating strategies what you and your study can't deny is that all three of these countries still have large white majorities that have respectively retained ethnic homogeneity.

Regardless, my look at the population growth trends shows without a doubt that Poland's population retained not just a larger population - nearly 2.5 times larger than than both Finland and Hungary combined - but also had a significantly larger percentage increase in size over a 40 year period. And Poland managed this reproductive success despite your study and your opinion from it that falsely concludes that Polish men are somehow genetically unfit.

You and your study made absolutely no mention of life expectancy in these countries nor any consideration of the local environmental and socio-economic factors which also affect a person's health and chances of successful reproduction irrespective of genetic composition.

You and your study also failed to mention that Finns and Magyars happen to share a recent common ancestry which is still evident in the similarity of their languages and may also explain why they appear together on one side of the chart. Poles are ethnically and linguistically different than Finns and Magyars and do not share a recent common ancestry with either of them. These are facts. You can either discover them through your own observations or by doing your own research.

So, with all that I just provided you to prove your study is flawed, the questions that you need to answer is what was your real motive for creating this thread in the first place and why did you concluded that "Polish women are advantaged by mating with foreigners"?

If you can't be honest with others then you should at least be honest with yourself and admit that you have a problem with Polish men. It is clear that it really bothers you and fellow haters like EM_Wave that Polish men, in their tens of millions, are able to find Polish females to have loving, lifelong relationships with and the results are they are consistently successful in passing on their genes to the next generation of ethnic Poles.

Zdzisław, why do you have to act like such a little ***** all the time? The study is not saying that Polish men are genetically unfit, but you're so insecure that you see enemies everywhere -- including in academia.

ShawnH seems to get the more salient point: that Polish women prefer monogomy. And that men around the world are too taken with their beauty and femininity, assuming the worst about them. Perhaps ShawnH has better reading comprehension, better control over his emotions, higher intelligence, some combination of these or even a mix of all three that should trigger in you a burning sense of envy.

Anyway, Zdzisław, what the study suggests is that Polish men have the least variance in 2D:4D ratios, making their genetic fitness highly consistent (not low quality, this is a critical difference). The speculation following that suggests that Polish women prefer monogamy, perhaps because they realize instinctively that a different man is not necessarily better than the one they have.

The blog I linked to then connects the study to speculation regarding masculinity and how men can better relate to femininity as a whole. The topic there revolves around the idea that if a man's index finger (2D) is longer than his ring finger (4D) then he was exposed to less testosterone in utero, and if the opposite is true in a woman than she was exposed to less estrogen. As I think most of us would agree, men low in testosterone and women high in testosterone are not exactly a gift to procreation and family life when paired together in a committed relationship.

Hence that Polish women are genetically advantaged by finding men with a more favorable 2D:4D ratio. Should you be able to make it all the way through, say, more than 150 pages on a single issue, check out an interesting book on this general topic by Matt Ridley called "The Red Queen".

Meanwhile, though, you demonstrate that actual meanings of things fly straight over your head, as you scare up playground insults and attempt to pore over figures from the World Bank to defend the proud Polish people against me, an assumed aggressor! Great job! You seem really smart right about now...

BTW -- did you notice the part where I said I'm with you, that white Polish men should remain the clear majority in Poland? You seem to be tortured by images of giant african sausage, that, as you put it, "haunt you every single day until you croak."

Its also convenient for you to keep repeating the same thing over and over because you are of mixed race.

Hahahah,lots of big words,but,essentialy,you are well thick innit bruv...................you throw around "flawed" at others while presenting total bollox as "fact".......

Your remarks along with this flaky study which you are fascinated with would only find regard in the Joseph Mengele Institute for Eugenics.

You refuse to accept that this absurd 2D:4D ratio is meaningless because it doesn't bear out in the high reproductive success of Polish men and Polish women. Fine, you are free to ignore reality. You are also free to ignore that 2D:4D ratios have never dominated the headlines in the Polish media and successive Polish government's have never found the need to have crisis meetings about it either. Poles are still going about their daily lives, getting married, and having children - generation after generation after generation.

So let's return then to what you stated about your precious study:


Again, these are your words Chrysalis.

So what is your agenda then for creating this thread? Let's keep it "scientific" and you can expound on your conclusion and tell us which particular foreigners Polish women should be mating with. But bear in mind that disease across the planet is rife and even non-white races are prone to their own peculiar chronic health problems which can still be passed on to any mixed children they may have.

I know you won't answer any of these questions and like a true scoundrel will continue to obfuscate. Deep down you cannot admit that although you might be attracted to Polish women they are not attracted to you regardless that your own finger length ratio could somehow advantage them.

If you and your study have any legitimacy and merit then need to apply it to another country like Israel or any number of the many Hassidic communities around the world and we can watch to see how long it takes for the ADL to shove a lawsuit down your throat. Be sure to provide us the links so we can follow the drama as it unfolds!

He's trying to say that Poles mate but almost exclusively with Polish women, don't choose foreign women as sexual partners. And thus don't have a variety of different looks, just mostly looking Polish, the same. Chrysalis tell me who are Polish women supposed to sleep with you? haha. Those stats are for Poles, in Poland a 97% homogenous country. Poles who went abroad mate with other women. In America Polish men date everything from a Irish or Italian to Latina or Black background. Don't u live in the States? you should know this..

So this study suggests Polish men are low in testosterone ? I'm not sure If I get it right.


What's about this finger index ? Shoul I measure my fingers ? WTF ?

Now lets compare your


with the point that researchers stated in their study: "We do not argue that the 2D:4D ratio is important mechanistically or as a display trait in mate choice. Most probably it affords us a window into prenatal hormonal conditions." This is what they are disscussing in the article, not the BS you are trying to attribute to them.


Yes, straight over your head.

I don't know that the study suggests low testosterone in Polish men. The aggro responses here don't seem to support that hypothesis anyway, lol. But given a typical bell-curve distribution I don't think we can conclude that all Polish men have extremely high testosterone that's just off the charts.


I didn't present anything as fact! I found the study shocking and that's why I posted it here. I didn't post it here saying I represent the study or agree with its findings... only that I found them shocking. OK? If you gain something by contrasting my writing style with yobbish fukwit chavery, go right ahead m8.


Totally fair. I find it interesting that testosterone levels in men and women could have something to do with relationship success, and particular a preference for monogomy, especially in a country like Poland where matriarchy seems to be a lot more common. I absolutely did speculate about this.

I notice nobody has argued that the data in the study is incorrect, but people are lining up cheek by jowl to guess what my intentions were and get all snippy on that basis. It's not like I opened up my post with some sort of insult or making any value judgement, it was simply Zdzisław sh1tting up the thread as usual in order to prevent a more serious discussion.

Meanwhile the study also says that in addition to Polish males having low 2D:4D variance in relation to each other, when they are compared to Polish women there is also a low 2D:4D variance in terms of the normal difference between men and women in other countries. In other words, the 2D:4D ratios of Polish men are more similar to those of Polish women, and in other countries they are less similar. I find this interesting also.

Inb4 tons of angry responses suggesting I think that Polish men are actually women...


My "agenda"? I was out in the world, roaming, when I came across something about Poland that is genuinely interesting. Please re-read my original post and you will find no criticism of Polish males or females, or any criticism of the Polish nation or culture whatsoever. You, however, came barging in with a bad attitude like a raging bull in an antiques shop, seeing enemies everywhere (because you are insecure about something) and generally making sure we all see that there is still some testosterone left in Poland.

Brawo.