History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


The British, along with the French, were the ones who allowed the destruction of Czechoslovakia. They played bigger role than the Poles, signed the Munich agreement and gave the Nazis free hand to carve up a quarter of Czechoslovakia's territory. You do assess them as 'good forces'?

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Jarosław Kaczyński wasn't in the PRL's apparatus of repression. Should we despise children for deeds of their parents?
Anyway, what is the basis of your claims? Did you live during communism in Poland?

Love / Why marriage ring on the right hand finger in Poland? [11]

According to Polish tradition wedding ring on left hand means that a person is a widow/widower.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Maybe according to former SB/ZOMO/party members. If you talk to people who were in the opposition, you will get diffrent answer. Majority of Polish adult population was not in the party.

Those who were in the apparatus of repression are deeply despised in Poland.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Edward Szczepanik?
guardian.co.uk/news/2005/dec/19/guardianobituaries.mainsection

Stanisław Mikołajczyk escaped Poland in 1947 (with the help of British embassy) because he feared for his life. He wrote a book titled 'The rape of Poland: pattern of Soviet aggression' in which he described among others sovietization of Poland and falsification of 'Polish' elections.

---------------------------------------------------------
Worth reading:
Leonid Gibianskii (Institute of Slavic Studies - Russian Academy of Sciences) and Norman M. Naimark (Stanford University):

ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/2004_817-16_Gibianskii.pdf

The Soviet Union and the establishement of communist regimes in eastern Europe, 1944-1954.

Without Soviet involvement, there would not be 'People's Republic of Poland'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_the_Sixteen

History / Lithuanians hate Poles? [156]


Was there any research about the level of their fluency in Lithuanian? Fluency in given language shouldn't be seen as the ability to pass Matura exam from this language, which require additional knowledge (for example, of full spectrum of national literature) and skills, not only competence in writing and speaking in Polish/Lithuanian.


From what I've read, the issue of "discrimination" lies in the fact that Lithuanian authorities are taking away from national minorities some educational rights the latter enjoyed for tens of years (also in free Lithuania), in a hurry, without consulting the communities and dialogue with them. You need a good reason/explanation for this.

Genealogy / The Last name "Mack" [5]

Maybe they added the letter 'c'. The word 'Mack' sounds similar to 'Mak' in Polish.
It means poppy.

Nazwisko/last name

History / Lithuanians hate Poles? [156]

That's their choice and loss. The point is: why do you want to reform the education of young people (limit the number of lessons taught in Polish in "Polish schools", add more subjects in Lithuanian) if there is no need for such changes - young Lithuanian Poles are fluent in Lithuanian language.

History / Lithuanians hate Poles? [156]


It is possible that older generations of Lithuanian Poles don't know Lithuanian as well as younger generation which learns this language as compulsory subject at schools and has been exposed to it since childhood. Maybe language courses for older adults would be more appropriate instead of the proposed reform?


We have double-naming in Poland too: Polish-Lithuanian plates, Polish-German, Polish-Kashubian. Polish-Lemko...


ksng.gugik.gov.pl/pliki/new_polish_legislation_regarding_national_ethnic_and_linguistic_minorities.pdf

History / Lithuanians hate Poles? [156]


According to the poll, the most reserved towards Poles are inhabitants of Klaipėda and Šiauliai, where Poles constitute a negligible percent of population.

Ponad połowa Litwinów nie chce Polaków za sąsiadów.


Is there any research confirming that Polish minority in Lithuania don't know Lithuanian/refuse to learn Lithuanian? Poles in Lithuania aren't immigrants, but autochthonous citizens - I would expect them to be bilingual.


National Minorities and Diasporas in Lithuania

USA, Canada / Polish-American mutilation of the Polish language [75]


This might be about Lwów :) I think the most popular pre war song from there is "Tylko we Lwowie".

edit: I will try to search some information about this dialect from Warsaw.


Doesn't "sklep" mean "cellar" in Czech language?

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]


If there was at least one country that didn't recognize the partitions of Poland and protested against them, would it mean that Poland indeed was under occupation?


What I meant was the use of the term "Polish occupation" in the following cases: "Polish occupation of", "lands under Polish occupation".


What is collaboration in such circumstances? Working in Prussian bakery to feed one's family?


For the record, the terms: "Prussian Poland", "Austrian Poland", "Russian Poland" were in use when Poland wasn't formally on the map of Europe, e.g. "Higher education in Russian, Austrian, and Prussian Poland (1896)", published by U.S. Government Printing Office; The encyclopædia of geography (1837) See more here.

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]


You are wrong....


This phrase should be always used instead 'the Polish occupation'.

USA, Canada / Polish-American mutilation of the Polish language [75]


Indeed. It can be either a paper label on a neck of a bottle of beer, "[twenga.pl/dir-Hobby-i-Rozrywka,Koraliki,Krawatka-do-wisiorka] - zawieszka do wisiorka", or a diminutive of cravat.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krawatka


I assume by "during those times" you mean the period of partitions. They could have as well stated that they are Ruthenian/"Little Russian" or just Austrian or Russian.

There was a Polish dialect in Red Ruthenia, called [staff.amu.edu.pl/~hjp/teksty/kurz1.pdf] - dialect "południowokresowy" - Polish language influenced by Ruthenian. I wouldn't consider it a mutilation of Polish language.

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

@delphiandomine
As a 'specialist' on Polish history, you surely base your theories on something more than wikipedia. Some of your claims contradict what I have read (not in Davies' books). I asked nicely about your sources, but you haven't answered. Why don't you share with us the names of authors who opened your eyes? Maybe after reading their works more people will understand your attitude? ;)


You mean events occurring particularly in Polish ethnic territory.

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]


"Niemki kochać i żyć nie umieją" means: German women don't know how to love and live. It's about the feeling of love, not making love.

"Nasze dziewczyny są najpiękniejsze w całym świecie, kochać umią poczciwie sami wiecie." - Our girls are the most beautiful in the world, their love is honest/sincere (they love honestly/sincerely/faithfully). "Niemki nie potrafią się kochać" would mean German women don't know how to make love.

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

Some basic information about Germanization in "Prussian Poland":




These fragments are from "A German Voice of Opposition to Germanization (1914)". Apparently, some Germans understood that the Germanization of Poles was futile.



What publications would you recommend?


Post links or at least titles and authors.


People who diminish the wrongs of Germanization, shouldn't speak against Polonization

Feedback / Why are there so many on here, who do not like Poland [150]


Negatives outweight positives. 'The good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful' or just 'the good and the bad' like it was before, would look more neutral.

History / Poland's biggest historical blunder? [341]


Strangely, it's hard to find wikipedia's information about massacres committed by the Ukrainian army in 1918-1921 (not because they didn't happen).


Manus I. Midlarsky (2005), The killing trap: genocide in the seventeenth century, Cambridge University Press, page 47.

e.g.



...
massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?artpage=3

Talking about Ukrainian 'barbarians' who plundered towns and murdered civilians.

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


It seems that Roosevelt (and Churchill) very delicately 'suggested' that Lwów could be returned to Poland. Stalin was against it.

Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin in Yalta, 6 February 1945:

Stalin: I refer now to our allies' appeal with regard to the Curzon line. The President has suggested modification giving Poland Lvov and Lvov Province...

Roosevelt:This is my only suggestion. If we can work out some solution of this problem it will make peace much easier.

Churchill:I have made repeated declarations in Parliament in support of the Soviet claims to the Curzon line, that is to say, leaving Lvov with Soviet Russia. I have been much criticised and so was Mr Eden especially by the party which I represent. But I have always considered that after all Russia has suffered in fighting Germany and after all her efforts liberating Poland her claims is one founded not on force but on right. I that position I abide. But of course if the mighty power, the Soviet Union, made a gesture of magnanimity to a much weaker power and made the gesture suggested by the President we would heartily acclaim such action.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


It looks like they needed.


You might want to answer how did Nazis know who was a Jew?


Some wrongdoings were true, some were not (moreover on personal level).


Where is your source for Ukrainian kids and women killed in Bereza Kartuska, Nat? Isn't it another example of YOUR FREE INTERPRETATION?


'Eventually, 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another 150 were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.[7]' means 'Poles burnt all our churches'.
I don't argue with facts, only with your manipulation of them, and don't read only bolded fragments or the ones that you choose.

20 years of Polish rule, including 10 years of Józefski's rule in Volhynia shouldn't be limited to one-two years. Did you know that OUN's victims in the Interwar Poland were people who wanted peaceful coexistence between Poles and Ukrainians?


Mass-murdering of defenceless civilians is always a big deal. We can try to understand why it happened, but there is no justification to it - that is what people should learn from the past.

I could give you examples of ethnic minorities in Ukraine, that are repressed and their rights are not respected (according to them).


And how did 'you' behave? You lost your 'only-victim' status.
I said that Poles and Ukrainians were both victims and perpetrators, but that's not enough for you. You believe that Ukrainians are morally superior and all their crimes are excused.

Life / Polish Cartoons/ Legends [15]

Try if they will like these:
Porwanie Baltazara Gąbki
...
Miś Uszatek

youtu.be/Bo4dYjb5Rro


I like it ;) but you are right if the children are small, it might be too scary for them, so don't show it.
You want 100% Polish cartoons, and not only with Polish dubbing like Muminki etc.

History / Chance of Lwów once again became coming part of Poland [344]

Ukrainians don't want to be part of Poland, and it won't change in the future. I understand you want to acquire Lwów in peaceful way - it won't happen.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


There is possibility that UPA planned to murder all the Poles in Volhynia, and in case of Galicia - wanted Poles 'only' to flee.
I think it can be treated as 'preemptive strike' in form of ethnic cleansing of civilians - in the OUN-B leaders' minds, Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine could have been contested again like in 1918-1919, with civilians being part of the conflict.

Nazis showed Banderists how to 'ethnic cleanse' when they murdered Jews in Volhynia with the help of future UPA members. OUN-B's admiration for Nazi ideology obviously made the decision easier.


The lists of professors were prepared for Nazis by Ukrainian students. Western Ukrainians had numerous chances to exact their revenge before...


Read the article you quote so many times once again, you interpret it freely. And still haven't answered my questions (about kids in Bereza, and NKVD members dressed as UPA during Volhynian massacres)

Real or imagined wrongs by Poles could have played a role in mobilizing/agitating local population. As to Banderists, if they were able to kill thousands of their fellow Ukrainians fighting for interdependence of Ukraine, why should they have had any scruples when it comes to murdering Poles.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


Why, according to you, UPA started murdering Poles in February/March 1943?


I know this wikipedia article. There is no need to quote it. You should just use appropriate/wiser words, otherwise one day we will learn from you that Bereza was a death camp for Ukrainian women and children, Poles forbade Ukrainians to speak in Ukrainian, and burnt Orthodox priests during 'pacification'. Mykhailo Hrushevsky, an early Ukrainian nationalists leader, is hardly objective source. Ukrainian life in the Interwar Poland was in shades of gray, not as black as some want to paint it.


The OUN terrorized Galicia too.


I wish you remember it.


That you should change your definition of 'enemy'.


There was no pacification in 'Volhynia'. You confuse 'pacification' with 're-vindication', which goal was to deprive the Orthodox of those churches that had been Greek Catholic before Orthodoxy was imposed by the tsarist Russian government.

About pacification:




UPA didn't murder Osadniks - almost all of them were deported to Syberia. They murdered Poles who lived in Volhynia for generations/hundreds of years, innocent civilians who didn't take part in 'wrong-doings' against Ukrainians. You simply apply collective responsibility.


Nathan, you offend Poles very often, even in this thread, so you shouldn't complain. Everyone has right to his/her opinion.


What are your mistakes?

Life / Polish Cartoons/ Legends [15]


Kubuś Puchatek

Chojrak
...

bajki-dla-dzieci.eu

100% Polish:

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


A very good book about Józewski's rule: Timothy Snyder, Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Yale University Press, 2005.

Ukrainian life in the inter-war Poland is often portrayed in one-sided way. As Snyder explains it: 'Soviet historians justified the Soviet annexation of Volhynia by portraying inter-war Polish policy as the exploitation of the honest Ukrainian peasant. Much of Ukrainian historiography has followed this line'.

- In the first decade of Polish rule, Polish authorities built 114 elementary schools and a high school, as well as three hospitals and ten public buildings. All important towns were electrified, and telephone service was introduced. The proportion of children in school increased from perhaps fifteen percent to more than seventy percent.

- The state subsidised local Ukrainian reading societies, which by 1937 had some five thousand chapters. The state also provided the capital for a Ukrainian cooperative network. The state-sponsored Ukrainian theatre presented national classics and national themes, and was on the road every weak a year.

- Józefski built a Ukrainian high-school and a Polish-Ukrainian technical school. Most Volhynian children, regardless of nationality, had some Ukrainian language in their schools. In 1933, there were 546 Polish schools with Ukrainian as a subject, and 530 bilingual schools. By 1936, more than two-thirds of Volhynian elementary schools had some Ukrainian component : either Ukrainian was taught as a mandatory subject in Polish schools (775 schools), or certain subjects were taught in Ukrainian in bilingual schools...

From encyclopediaofukraine.com:

The main centre of Shevchenko studies in the 1930s was the Ukrainian Scientific Institute in Warsaw, which published 13 volumes of a 16 volume set of the complete works of Shevchenko. The Soviet occupation of Poland put an end to the edition.

Doesn't seem like Ukrainian language and culture were forbidden.
As far as I know there was no 'pacification' in Volhynia.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


Waldemar Lotnik – a young Pole in south-eastern Poland - chronicled with amazing clarity and insight his flight from organized Ukrainian nationalist terror in 1943 and his return for vengeance as a soldier in a Polish partisan unit in 1944/1945.


When it comes to Polish-Ukrainian relations during the war and the critical year 1943, you have only your own words, Nathan, not backed by any sources.

Aren't you interested in answering my questions #29?



You can add this to the list 'source needed'.


So what should have been done with those civilian 'enemies', their families, villages suspected of collaboration with AK? Weren't all Polish civilians potentially dangerous (civilian base), taking into consideration possibility of Polish uprising?

'to prevent fight of Ukrainians for independance' - an appropriate clarification. A bulk of UPA members were former Nazi policemen. In early 1944 UPA forces in several Western regions engaged in cooperation with the German Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, SiPo and SD etc.

Weren't Melnyk and Bulba also fighting for Ukrainian independence?



I don't cry, and don't want to throw peas at you/into the wall any more, just beware what you write.

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


He wasn't forced to 'glorify' Polish culture and write in Polish. It was his preference. Why do you want him to be Lithuanian and feel Lithuanian so badly? He had dual identity, just like many people in those times. He was a Lithuanian (his local identity) because of the place of birth, but could be Ruthenian as well. So which culture Mickiewicz family in fact abandoned – Ruthenian or Lithuanian? He didn't even differentiate clearly between Ruthenian and Baltic Lithuanian language, and Lithuanian nationalism was based on linguistic identity (by this criterion, Mickiewicz was Polish). How many generations has to pass before a Ruthenian becomes Lithuanian, and a Lithuanian becomes Polish?

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


;) Never mind. I just hoped for more 'detailed' explanation that would actually include words like: UPA and Volhynia; years 1943-1945. Thanks anyway.


Of course, I agree with that.