And I suppose that's ok with you, as long as they don't call it "patriotism"? :)
what will you be doing/have you done for Poland?
It's not only about "doing". It's also about the emotions, feelings, way of thinking and that part seems to irk you most. The fact that someone may be proud of their country, ancestry, history, that they may actually LIKE the place they were born at, its past and present, and the people around them. And feel protective towards all of this. It does not have to be some sort of blind, sheepish, brainwashed (have I missed anything?) attitude. It may be the sort of love you might have for your brother - you see his flaws, you try to help him in overcoming these, you are proud when he does. And if he fails - you still love him. He is your brother after all and there is a good chance there is much more to him than the couple of things than annoy you. Sure, the relationship may be strained sometimes, you may not get along very well on a few occasions. But at the end of the day you realise how much you have in common - and that he is the one who for example saved you from bullies numerous times. And it hurts if you see him being attacked by bullies now.
As for "doing"...for my country I am doing pretty much the same I'm doing for the family. Try to stay a good person. Not to bring shame to the family name or Polish nation. Cherish the memory of my grandfather. Of his father. Of others worth remembering. Talk proudly about them. Bring flowers to their graves. Help the less fortunate. My little sister. Other kids. Give back when I can. Support grassroots movements. Politically I am far left, I will always support any organic work movements similar to the 19th century ones (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism_in_Poland). I vote. I discuss things. I write (that includes my posts here :D ). I argue sometimes. Generally - I care. And do what I think is the right thing to do.
I have always thought about my country in the same way I think of my family.
I don't get to choose the family / country I am born into. I may not like all the members of the family. I may move out of my home place and live far away for a good while.
But it is my family. I will always have strong feelings about them. I will know them better than anyone else. There will be always one place that will be my home(land). I can be proud of my ancestors and their actions. I can be proud of my second name inherited after my grandmother. And surname inherited after many that lived before my time. These are my roots, for good and for bad. I may be ashamed of an uncle or two. But it's a part of my history, my family history, the chain of events and people that shaped me.
And I am ready to protect my family if necessary, especially if I think the attack is an unjust one.
The balance between wages and housing, for the average person, is sheer lunacy in Britain
There is a nice table showing how many sq m in the city centre can be bought with the average yearly salary: egospodarka.pl/56012,Zarobki-w-Europie-a-metraz-mieszkania,1,39,1.html
(column 1: average salary p.a; column 2: average salary in the capital city; column 3: price of 120sqm apartment; column 4: how many sqm one gets with the average salary)
There isn't much difference between UK and Poland. And both countries score really bad.
And to answer your question... that all depends how long you want to spend in Kraków :)
When you are done with the sightseeing:
Buy obwarzanek and feed the fat cheeky pidgeons on the Main Square.
Get a flower from the Main Sq flower lady that will inevitably start to chat with you then.
If it's warm enough: climb the nearby statue of Adam Mickiewicz and read a book on its steps, from time to time watching people below. Or do the same on Planty. Or in Jordan Park (and don't forget to feed the ducks this time).
Watch the sunset from Mariacki Church tower: krakow4u.pl/wieza-mariacka-2.html
Go for a walk on Skałki Twardowskiego, the former quarry. If you are into diving you will find a real playground there:
(there is also an underwater plaque commemorating John Paul II who worked in this quarry during WWII).
Go to Kiniarnia, the tiniest cinema in Kraków that still uses old school projectors and changes the film reels in the middle of the movie (there is also a bar counter at the back of the room that server drinks to make the experience even nicer): (and the movies in Polish cinemas are usually subtitled, no Polish dubbing).
Get a Kraków t-shirt: letsfunky.com/wycinanka,20,1,p.html
If you feel like spending a bit more: Bielak Jewellery Gallery: galeriabielak.pl/index.php?lang=en
In a few months time Kitsch reopens, one of the few places openly gay, one always finds a good dancing partner there.
Also, for accommodation I would look here: noce.pl/SR/index2.php?lang=en&k=1&pk=2
...and rent a bike. It makes life soo much easier :)
There is a nice little booklet called "Kraków without limits":...
Buy coffee in Pożegnanie z Afryką
Hot chocolate (or chocolate dessert) in Wedel on Main Sq (just opposite Mariacki Church). Onion soup, rasperry dessert and mulled wine in Cieplarnia on Bracka St. They are hidden quite well and to find the place you go through narrow passages and emerge in completely different world. They do jazz concerts on Fridays / weekends and the soft acoustics of cosy rooms is just amazing.
Another glass of mulled wine in either Nowa Prowincja (mezzanine level highly recommended) or Stara Prowincja (both on Bracka Street). The best room in Stara Prowincja is carefully hidden - you have to go the the very back of the building, where only toilets seem to be, and discover old wooden winding stair there. Go up one floor and you will find the most comfortable couches in Kraków :) That room used to be one of two or three non-smoking places back in the 1990s / early 2000, before the introduction of smoking ban :D
One of the hundreds of teas in Czajownia 4th room is the best : ).
For eating:
- Dynia: dynia.krakow.pl. The food is unbelievably good. Not extremely expensive but not on the cheap side either.
- Hungarian food in Balaton on Grodzka St. (goulash! balaton.krakow.pl)
- Ukrainian food around the corner on Kanonicza St. (ukrainska.pl/en)
- Salads in Chimera restaurant vaulted cellars (don't go right though, to the main restaurant, unless you feel like eating pheasants / veal tongues): chimera.com.pl/htm/ang/salad_bar_main.html
- Babcia Malina (Sławkowska St, there are a few other "Babcias" around Kraków, but I have always found the one on Sławkowska st to be the best. Traditional Polish cuisine, including żurek served in a spherical loaf of bread): kuchniaubabcimaliny.pl/nasze-restauracje/krakow-ul-slawkowska-17.html
Yet another place when you have to locate the right building gate first, go through some courtyards, staircases etc. to finally reach the destination.
Well worth it imho. The food is great and it would be hard to find better prices in the city centre. You may try however:
- zapiekanka (toasted sandwich) on Plac Nowy, Kazimierz district. Perfect for the late evening, on the way from one pub to another.
- grilled sausage at Hala Grzegórzecka. These are being sold in the middle of the night directly from a shabby van to all the drunk pilgrims, who actually can come from quite far away :D These sausages are legendary :D
There is also outdoor antiques market at Hala Grzegórzecka every Sunday. They have everything: from antique jewelerry to collections of Kinder Surprise toys...
..and if my own return rate is higher? And if I don't spend any money on czynsz, furniture, property taxes, plumbers and insurance? And if on some stage property prices hit rock bottom and I will have spare cash in hand and buy neighbouring property for 300,000 from my savings?
Really. To many "ifs" to be sure that one option is always better than other.
Of all the landlords I met in Poland, only one was not pondlife.
...my experience was just the opposite, but I don't think it matters?
Even if the 640,000 property suffers a 20% fall in the first year
...and if in the last? :> And if the fall is more than 20%? There are plenty of "ifs" :)
My favourite bit of the equation is not having to deal with a Polish landlord
A problem avoided by renting something nice and selecting the landlord carefully :P
sitting on your a** and moaning about the price of property is not a solution
Of course it isn't. But the problem in Poland is that: a) (and it's a big "A"): moaning is a national tradition b) getting a mortgage is a real bureaucratic hurdle race and thousands of people employed to various extent in market gray zones may not qualify for the loan even if in reality they earn enough
c) the high property prices mean that people end up with the worst sort of loan available in the banking system: extremely long term mortgage loan.
But if one buys, one spend the same amount every month and ends up with a property worth (using a conservative growth rate) of 1.553 million zloty.
Agree, as long as "ends up" is replaced by "may end up" :)
The thing is that in 30 years time everything may happen. Properties prices may be sky high or may fall so badly that it will take years to recover (I'm living in Ireland, remember?). The property may require little or no spending - but substantial refurbishment may be required on some stage. My little investments, as diversified as I would like to keep them, may be worth nothing in 2030, but they can also be well above the conservative 7% interest rate.
My point is: there is much more to the choice between renting and buying than:
paying rent for 15 years and having nothing to show for
Especially if you are an average Polish family who have to deal with the unreasonable prices on Polish market (way too high when compared to the average salary).
at the end of the 30 years one would have a property worth 1.553 million zloty
...but in the meantime would spend anything from 640,000 (buying with cash) to 1,200,000 (30-year mortgage with no deposit). Gosh, if I was to buy I would hope for the average price increase to be higher than 3%.
so paying rent for 15 years and having nothing to show for it is better than having a mortgage?
In my case paying rent for 15 years was always cheaper than paying the mortgage. I could do whatever I wanted with the balance and I'm quite happy with my choices. Do you know for example what was the profit rate for gold investments over the last 10 years? I know. I was able to move where I wanted and when I wanted having the money to do that. I can leave work and go back to college now in my 30s because there is enough money for me to do this and I am not scared of some colossal monthly mortgage rate that's not going to pay itself (for the next 20 years or so). I can invest in my own skills, interest, passions, pension funds and constantly look for better opportunities as I do not drag the mortgage anchor everywhere I go.
Sure, I might have applied for mortgage 15 years ago. From where I am now in my life I would probably paid this off in a year. But there is a good chance I wouldn't be where I am now, I wouldn't have made certain choices 15, 10 or 5 years ago.
And "nothing to show for"? Is the property really the only thing you can show for?
At the moment I could afford the property. If not in cash - by getting a few years mortgage, renting the place and letting it pay for itself. But I am happy as I am now - and for example my landlord isn't: after deducting tax, maintenance charges and whatnots the rent he is getting covers half of his mortgage rate at best. Of course the roles may switch in 10 years time: he will be happy with his precious property and my choices prove to be not that great... Or we may be equally happy and relatively well off. I will keep my fingers crossed for that.
The mortgage amounts have been approximately one third of what the rental on a local apartment would cost
But wasn't it because of almost 60% of the property value you paid in the beginning?
You would have a hard job convincing me that renting was/is a better option
I have no intention of doing so, your choices worked well for you, enjoy it :) However for me the rental option worked quite good for the last 15 years or so, so I will keep on doing what I'm doing :)
- But you would have far less flexibility if you wanted to make your flat fit your needs (knocking a wall out, resizing the bathroom, getting the kitchen as you want it, having the security level you want, etc etc).
Not really, you can simply look for a place that won't require any further work :)
The problem with mortgages (or long term investments) is that it's really hard to predict how the market / investments will look like in 20 or 30 year time.
However Polish property prices make the long term rental look like a reasonable option at present.
Let's say I would like to live in a decent size, decent location apartment in Kraków. The 30-year mortgage for 70-80sqm apartment will cost me at least 3-3,500 zł monthly. Rent for a similar place is 2,500zł (quite often even less than that; I can get a split-level 150sqm place for 2,600: dom.gratka.pl/tresc/401-26934153-malopolskie-krakow-srodmiescie-ks-bp-wladyslawa-bandurskiego.html#02394ac29fb7b10d,1).
Assuming the living standards are constant - I can either pay 3.5k monthly for "my own" of 2.5 for rented. A thousand in my pocket monthly. By 30 years.... That's already nice figure. Now lets say I'm using this balance for investments - the figure gets even nicer. And I am not spending a single grosz on repairs, "czynsz", home insurance etc.
But. As per my first sentence - I am not able to predict how the property market and my investments will look like in 30 years time. It may be that for the money I saved I won't be able to buy a shed in 3rd world country. It may be that the rents in 10 years time will be twice as high as the mortgage payments. It may be that the cash at hand and general liquidity will prove to be priceless at a couple of occasions. I am not going to claim that rental is more reasonable than buying. It's gambling, really. But the chance of winning on rental option not much lower than on the buyer one.
I personally know two families that returned to Poland, following their plan they had on arrival in 2007. I know well two more Polish families currently living in the UK (and probably going to stay for good). Actually from all my friends that emigrated only a small percentage chose Great Britain as the destination. So, on the basis of MY OWN observations I should probably say that there aren't too many Polish people in the UK and that Germany / France / Norway / New Zealand / Spain / USA and Ukraine received similar levels of immigration. And Ireland got five as many people :D
Also, the last wave of emigration happened in 2007.
But I don't think my own experience is a very good indicator of what's going on on national / international level.
I said 1 - 1.5 million, how many do you think?
700-800,000 max would be my wild guess.
atleast 100,000 in Belfast.
Well, if we are quoting wikipedia here...
here are now believed to be 30,000 Polish people living in Northern Ireland.
But on the basis of what exactly? Observation? How far can a single person observation go? Let's say someone lives in an area with relatively high percentage of Polish / Easter European neighbours. He will be inclined to overestimate the number of immigrants on national level (and London seems to have a particularly high level of immigrant population, I wouldn't be surprised if half of Polish people live / work there. Dublin also shows over-representation of Polish people when compared to the rest of Ireland).
However the figures (and not only the "Governments'" ones) show the rough data: 1.9 million Poles are not accounted for (in Poland). How can you get 2m in the UK, if only 1.9m left the country? Why there are only 500-600,000 registered for NIN (and that includes also people who registered but left the country - either coming back to Poland or moving somewhere else, from what I know Norway and the Netherlands are increasingly popular)?
...there are 2 million of Polish people in the UK. Based on research - Polish population (in Poland) is currently short of 1.9 million people. That would mean they all travelled to the UK - and multiplied a bit on the way, to make for the tens of thousand difference.
And then 1.5 million have never registered for the NIN (and following the drift of some posts here - that would mean they cannot claim any benefits, right? Correct me if I'm wrong on this one).
Nope, sorry. The outcome of years of migration after Poland joined EU is that over 1.9 milion Poles live outside Poland at the moment. Only a quarter of that in Britain. Not even close to this 2m myth.
For Poles? No, not really. After WWII your country granted nationality and unlimited right to live and work in Britian to hundreds of millions Africans. Don't like the Somalians and Nigerians in city centres? Well, I would say implementing English in their homelands or making them part of British Commonwealth can hardly be called a deterrent. Now you have a million people born in India / Pakistan, another million born in Africa, close to 700,000 from former colonies in Asia (and that does not even include the second or third generation immigrants, born on British soil).
So, let me repeat my question: how did the interest in Africa, land "ripe for change", work for Britain?
Briton in Poland will not be entitled to the SAME amount of welfare as a Pole in the UK
He "will be entitled" (oh, how I hate this phrase) to the SAME amount as Pole in Poland. Pole in the UK will be entitled to the same amount as Briton in the UK.
Gives me chills. Mainly because it's painfully true. Terrible roads, old malfunctioning cars and completely unpredictable insanity in some drivers (including the ones in 18-wheelers...).
You need to read my own post LK 'Why do Poles think they are wanted' etc.
I did. No response there to the actual figure I gave you (based mainly on Worker Registration Scheme / Home Office sources, not "think tank with a hidden agenda").
Thousands of young British guys died in needless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
