Genealogy / Germanic or Polish Prussian? [3]

Thanks Ozi Dan, I just ordered Amazons only copy of Volume two.

At the moment Iam reading "The Other Prussia" by Karin Friedrich, I have plenty of books on East Prussia, but that was the first I could find on Royal Prussia.

I hadn't realized Germanic West Prussia had voluntarily pledged allegiance to the King of Poland and joined the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth in order to gain Polands help in overthrowing the Teutonic Knights who had come to rule even their own people with an Iron fist.

Seems also they had more freedoms under the King of Poland then their East Prussian brothers had under the Hohenzollern rule.

They where still able to maintain their own independence, laws and governance, in fact many of the Pheasant class of Poland moved to Royal Prussia where they where given more rights than the Polish Elite had afforded them in their own country.

Many thanks.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

A good book to read on this subject is "The Holocaust Industry" written by Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish son of Auschwitz survivors , the book is full of documentation that points to the whole holocaust being a Jewish moneymaking scheme where nearly none of the actual monies gathered, actually get into the hands of genuine holocaust survivors, but into the big Jewish agencies and lawyers.

It goes into great detail about the Swiss banks in the 90s where this industry demanded an outrageous sum of money from the Swiss banks, even when Swiss records proved it to be so, but the Swiss banks where threatened with an American boycott if they failed to pay this "blackmail money", the book noted at the end that Poland was to be their next target.

Other interesting points this book brings up is that according to his own parents who where at Auschwitz, most of what is written about it is "a load of nonsense".

The book also documents the reported number of Holocaust survivors that increase each year to the point now where if such Jewish evidence can be believed, not a single Jew could have actually died in the Holocaust.

History / Poland worst off as a result? (life in German Prussia vs. Russian communism) [14]

How can they not be relevant to the question?
Britain made promises to Poland which it failed to keep.
Was Poland as a result better or worst off for having trusted Churchill?

History / Poland worst off as a result? (life in German Prussia vs. Russian communism) [14]

Rather than a comparison of Life under Communism with life under Nazi occupation, which would obviously be unfair comparison in times of war, Iam looking at a comparison of life between communist rulership, which was the end result of the Allies interference, and life for Poles under the previous Prussian rule, Pre WW2 for East Prussia, and pre WW1 for West Prussia, and indeed, their own rule in actual Poland, basically how Poland might have been come 1945 and after if the West had let things alone.

Of course there are two courses history might have taken, Hitler might have invaded anyway, or, without the implied backing of the strength of the British Empire, Poland might have been more accommodating of Hitlers demands of a corridor to East Prussia and war might have been avoided.

History / Poland worst off as a result? (life in German Prussia vs. Russian communism) [14]

Doubtless the Soviet Union would have, I wonder if Poland would have successfully repelled the Communists if they were not having to fight the Nazis at the same time, whats more, if the Communists had attacked Poland, East Prussia would have considered that to be a threat towards themselves and so possibly have fought on Poland's side if the likes of Marshall Rydz=Smigly hadn't followed Churchill's encouragement to antagonize Hitler.

"Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to." (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Perhaps others who are reading this thread should read the book for themselves and make their own mind up along with further research, for instance, the very title of this thread indicates that their is indeed a "Holocaust Industry",

I just looked up one of the main topics of the debated book and instantly found this [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress_lawsuit_against_Swiss_banks] which backs what Norman Finkelstein was reporting.

Or you could find other Jews who also campaign against the holocaust industry such as Menachem Begin Prime Minister of Israel: "Our honor shall not be sold for money; Our blood shall not be atoned by goods. We Shall wipe out the disgrace!".

As with all recorded history, the winners, and those who can gain from a particular version of truth, are always going to defend their Golden egg laying goose, they are never going to admit, "yes, you are correct, here, have your money back", so it is utterly pointless debating with such.

Always best to use your own eyes, mind and common sense.

As an aside, I wonder how successful we Prussians would be in claiming for the properties we lost as a result of the Treaty of Versailles, one of my Grandparents had to abandon his horse farm as refugees from Polish persecution.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Why not have an exchange with the Palestinians? Iam sure they need it more and it would sure make Poland look better in the eyes of the rest of the Free world.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


So you are saying Jews are not Semitic but are in fact Caucasian?

By the way, Iam not disagreeing with you, I too consider modern Israelis to fulfill Jesus words at Revelation 2 verse 9

I would be interested in learning if the Jews themselves share your views on their ethnicity.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Iam teasing Pawian, I am aware of the origins of modern Israel, I just take exception to their stealing and ethnically cleansing another peoples land, claiming to be the rightful and God given Semitic heirs to that land, and the whole world plays along with their game,

Yet Iam sure Poland would have been appalled at any country running student exchange programs with White South Africa during the days of Apartheid, and they also where Europeans.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


You can see why people are starting to call Israelis, "the new Nazis", next thing they will be digging pits. getting 10 year old boys to kneel in front of them, and then shooting them in the back of the head.

Oh, silly me, I forgot, they already did it in 1947, Read about it here folks:-

Yes I know jon, another Jewish liar and conspiracy theorist just like anyone else who dares reveal Israels sins and deceit, best to lock em up eh?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Holocaust denial, shouldn't people be locked up for this?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

I think we are getting off topic here, let me steer it back a touch.
If Jews expect Poland to provide reparations for the homes and land they lost in WW2.
Shouldn't they set an example and provide reparations for the land they steal to this day from Palestinians?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


You must think us human cattle are stupid, do you really think we don't know what you are doing?, that we don't see your Apartheid wall and your checkpoints, that we don't see the films of you dropping phosphorous bombs on schools full of Palestinian children, that we don't see how you murder piecefull activists and aid workers because they try and help what you call Amalekites, a people God told you to kill every man, woman and child of.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Whilst I have every sympathy with Poland's sufferings at the hands of Germans and Russians, and do not consider it legal proper and just at all, I must remind you that both sets of my Grandparents family lost property in Prussia, not Poland, Prussia,

Maybe you should look further into your countries history, whilst Royal Prussia had indeed submitted itself to the Polish commonwealth in order to gain Polands assistance in overthrowing the harsh rule of the Teutonic Knights, this didnt then make Prussia Poland, any more than it made Lithuania as part of the Polish Commonwealth Poland.

If you claim to be of the original inhabitants of this land, the Prusy tribe, I will have more sympathy for your views, though as Iam Baltid rather than Germanic, I think I could lay just as much claim to being descended from the original inhabitants of this land.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


At the moment, Iam half way through this book:
amazon.co.uk/The-Other-Prussia-1569-1772-Cambridge/dp/0521027756/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1336577222&sr=8-2

The book is saying Prussia only felt it submitted itself and pledged allegiance to the Polish King and not the Polish Government, the Polish King allowed Prussia to indeed keep its individuality, its own form of Law and Governance, one I might add that granted far more freedoms and rights to the peasant classes than the Polish Elite did, with the result many of Polands poor moved to Prussia in order to enjoy a higher standard of Human rights than they experienced in their home country, its probably the reason for so many Poles choosing to live in Germanic Prussia than stay at home.


Cheers Yehudi for advertising the fine work that Jewish man is doing, I admire him and his work to the extent that I donate to support the fine work he is doing.

Why would I be supporting a Semite if Iam an anti-semite?
Well you answer the question yourself in the comment you made in your other post, "People like you often accuse Jews of labeling any critic of Israel as an antisemite, as if we're trying to muzzle legitimate criticism of Israel."

Heres some more Jews I like jewsagainstzionism.com

I actually like Jews, its just the Zionist bankers and the Rabbis who still promote their Master Race ideology that I am not so fond of.

Deuteronomy 7 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 26 And to make thee higher than all nations which he hath created,

Deuteronomy 28 You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath,

I realize most Jews are not like this at all, but your leaders are, they prove it by their actions, people who defend them share their sin though, Revelation 18 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

As for trying to make me feel guilty about whats in the Holy Bible, forget it.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

No, it was in the 1920s, before even Hitler came to power, I wasn't there, it is what my Father tells me, I do not see why he would lie to me, and it wasn't just one side of my Fathers family, it was both sides independently, I would Love to know the truth, even if my Fathers version is exaggerated as people do tend to exaggerate their sufferings, such is the anger at the perpetrators, I cannot see them abandoning property though for no reason, just to make a point.

I have read many books on what the Russians did to the East Prussians after WW two, but there is preciously little available in English about what happened in West Prussia, in fact the book I cited earlier is the only one Ive found, and that doesn't cover history that late.

I understand there are German language books available, but as I don't speak German and my Father lives the other side of the Ocean.

All I have to go on, from reading Polish peoples attitude to the Prussians, is that there must have been some underlying hatred that could be vented once Prussia came under Polish sovereignty after it was given to them in the a fore mentioned treaty. Maybe it wasn't nation wide but just some country areas, country folk in all nations can sometimes be a little less tolerant than Urban folk.

The area they are from is a little South of Danzig, Grandenz on the River Weichsel, sorry I do not know the Polish names.

The only documentation Ive seen refers to incidents that occurred when Germany first invaded Poland in 1939
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281939%29

When you are being invaded it seems to me quite reasonable that you would have some hostility towards those of that nationality, but the sheer brutality, especially against Woman and Children, babies even, does suggest there was indeed a previous and deep rooted hatred against their German speaking neighbors.

bing.com/images/search?q=bromberg+bloody+sunday&FORM=BIFD#x0y0

One thing Iam sure we are all aware of, any country, even the so called Democratic West, will always portray its own actions as being Moral and good, and demonize the enemy, to the extent that a country, any country, will try to erase its atrocities and teach its subjects the version of truth they find most appealing, We had the tread about Katyn Forest recently as an example.

I would be most interested in any sources of pure history, regardless of which side it favors, though I can understand why such might be unpalatable for some.

My own view of History is that those who rule us, can make their evil actions look moral and good in our eyes, so we keep feeding our Children's blood to their endless war machines. I condemn my own people for forcing their democracy at the point of a gun on folk just because they live differently to us, Iraq for instance.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Thank you for that Pawian, that is most useful.
Its such a shame when peoples don't get on and a repetitive cycle of vengeance by both sides results in so much suffering, and its often instigated by a handful of people at the top who in any country will find an unsavory element to carry out their deeds whilst probably the majority of folk get on with each other and just want a peaceful life.

Ironside, I have indeed heard of the reasons given for the Bromberg massacres, however, have you seen the pictures of the mutilated bodies of Prussian infants and women?

I cannot belive they where terrorists armed and trained by Germany, Iam afraid it doesn't ring true to me.
Seems to be the same excuse for the West using to wage war with Islam, accusing them of being "terrorists".

Thanks again Pawain, your link resulted in me finding a book about this very subject, "Orphans Of Versailles: The Germans in Western Poland, 1918-1939", I managed to secure the last new copy at $65, the next available is 119 Dollars!

Heres a paste from a review, :-

After its defeat in World War I, Germany lost very important and very large chunks of territory that were claimed as Polish: Pomerania (the area around Gdansk/Danzig, called the Polish Corridor, which separated East Prussia from the rest of Germany), Poznan, and the coal-rich and heavily industrialized Upper Silesia. The new Polish government enacted policies determined to drive the German minority out of Poland so as to remove a potential fifth column; and besides, the well-to-do Germans owned a great deal of property which could be taken away and re-distributed. To achieve a German-free Poland, every form of chicanery and harassment was commplace, with occasional resort to outright violence. Poland's minortiy policies generated more complaints to the League of Nations than those of any other country, not just from Germans but from the far more numerous Ukranians as well.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Don't worry Pawian, even if it doesn't, I do not subscribe to the view of others that my Government is right, good, etc, the nationalistic pride that deceives youth into the trenches, I realized this at the age of 20 when I terminated my military career due to understanding that all Governments are willing and capable of committing acts of atrocities, whereas the people in general are good except when their nationalism blinds their minds and they submit themselves to the evil plans and deceptions of their masters.

The Prussians themselves suffered under the reign of the Teutonic Knights so I wouldn't for a minute consider they would have treated the Polish any better.

Even the Hohenzollern rule that took over Prussia was not greatly loved I have read, it is not in generally in the nature of such Imperialistic dynasties to put the well being of others before their own ambitions,

Even in Poland, I read the Polish Elite considered their own peasants as sub-human or slave for their own uses, how would they consider the peasants of another land?

I do not subscribe to the notion of this country verses that country, rather the ordinary folk of all lands, including Israel by the way, verses the ruling power Elite.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Thank you p3undone, if only more people realized that we should not be fighting each other, but we should be fighting the hidden hand that ferments such conflicts whilst they stay out of harms why, counting the money they are making and the resultant power vacuums they can fill with their own.

Its the reason I left the armed forces, I had nothing against Russians, and Iam sure Russians had nothing against me, let the "War Pigs"fight amongst themselves.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Don't worry, we haven't forgotten, and we would like to see it fulfilled, to see Gods promise to Abraham fulfilled in a way that brings peace an happiness to all, and to the glory of God, whilst your Bible might not contain Revelation, it does contain the likes of Daniel and Jeremiah from which Revelation is the same prophesies, written from a different angle.

Instead of defending the likes of the Rothschilds who would willingly sacrifices 6 million genuine Jews in order to fulfill their satanic aims, why not follow Jews such as Abraham, King David and Solomon, you have such a moral destiny still available to you, what makes you chose men over God?

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]

Ive read quite a few books, its quite complicated so you would have to do the same, from what I gather condensed into a short paragraph, I would say initially it was inhabited by us Baltic tribes collectively known as Prussians.

Poland had little success in trying to subdue Prussia, so the Teutonic Knights were offered the land if they could conquer it, which they did.

What was left of the Old Prussians were Germanised and assimilated into the German culture, they were joined by German immigrants who turned the wild marshlands into a more arable landscape.

Even the German Prussians themselves didn't like their Teutonic overlords and allied themselves with the King of Poland to overthrow the Teutonic Knights, Prussia therefore became part of the Polish Commonwealth, pledging allegiance to the King of Poland, but maintaining its own German Laws and Governance.

The Jews arrived somewhat later being offered a place of refuge at a time when other countries like England were more hostile to them.
At this stage, Prussia also allowed a lot of the lower class Polish to live there as these Peasants found they where given greater rights by the Prussians, than by the Polish upper classes who treated the lower classes quite badly at this time.

So it was always a Germanic country following the initial ethnic cleansing by the Teutonic Knights, but gradually gained a more diverse collection of peoples, even so, it still had a greater percentage of Germans than Polish up until the Treaty of Versailles following which the Polish drove out the German speaking peoples regardless of wither they were ethnic Germans, Baltic's or even German assimilated Polish.

This is more a potted history of West Prussia than East Prussia which I gather was even more German.

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]


I did allude to such when I posted that the Tuetonic knights were offered the land, but maybe you can answer a question I have been unable to find an answer for.

When the Teetonic Knights invaded Prussia, they didnt find Poles but Old Prussians, a pagan peoples speaking thier own laungauge, the Polish Crown had been unable to conquer these people so what on earth gives Poland the right to claim its thier land, part of Poland, when there were allready another peoples living there who hadnt been conquered.

Please explain how Prussia could have been legitimately concidered to belong to the Polish Crown, surely it belonged to the original Prussians whom the Knights stole it from?

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]


Rather than not being good enough, I would say not complete enough in that is hasnt fully answered my question, Iam familiar with the Post Teutonic Knight invasion history which your report is in complete harmony with what I have already learnt, I also understand what you are saying about the Old Prussians being East of the Vistula.

However, I still have not learnt a satisfactory answer as to the claim the Polish Crown makes on West Prussia.

I read that in ancient times it was originally inhabited by German Tribes who moved further West into what is now Germany, Slavic Tribes took their place but towards the end of the 7th century, Pagan German tribes retook West Prussia and were also known as "Prussian" tribes, As I understand the first King of Poland and indeed the very establishment of Poland came later in 966, I still fail to see a valid claim by the Polish Crown that the land was indeed theirs, had Poland retaken West Prussia again before renouncing claims to the country and ceding it to the Teutonic Knights in 1343 in the Kalisz Treaty?

Doubtless there is a historical action that grants West Prussia to Poland prior to the Teutonic Knights acquisition, its just that I cannot find it.

Thank you for your help.

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]

Not in East Prussia certainly, but West Prussia was given to Poland after the Treaty of Versailles and they certainly drove the German speaking peoples out. A good book that looks at this is amazon.com/Orphans-Versailles-Germans-Western-1918-1939/dp/ 0813118034/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355272678&sr=1-1&keywords=orphans+of+versailles

Both separate branches of my Grandparents were driven out of West Prussia by the Polish before the second world war.

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]

Iam sorry to spoil the world view that you obviously hold dear Largelysane, but Iam afraid it is not a lie, it is a historical documented event, and two separate branches of my Family actually experienced it.

Maybe you were taught otherwise in a Polish school or something, but you should realise that all countries paint themselves in a positive light and hide bad points from even their own people. You have a choice to believe a lie because it is what you would rather believe, or you could investigate history if you were reakky interested.

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]

There isnt a lot that has been posted on the internet about this subject, its not of interest to many people, you would be better to research in history books were you would learn that following the Treaty of Versailles, German minorities in what became Poland made 10,000 complaints to the League of Nations under the Minorities Treaty which had been a stipulation of West Prussia being ceded to Poland.

There is some stuff on the net:-

worldcourts.com/pcij/eng/decisions/1923.09.10_german_settlers.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor#Exodus_of_the_German_population

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_German_settlement_in_Central_and_Eastern_Europe#1914-1939

By your tone however, you do not strike me as the studious sort of person who would even bother reading through such articles, but would rather employ childish insults, so to help you out, I copy and pasted just one paragraph from the World Courts documentation of appeals to the League of Nations.

17] By the documents filed with the Court the present subject of controversy appears to have been brought to the attention of the League of Nations by a telegram addressed to the Secretary-General on November 8th, 1921, by the German League for the Protection of the Rights of Minorities in Poland (Deutschtumsbund zur Wahrung der Minderheitsrechte in Polen) of Bydgoszcz (Bromberg), which stated that several thousand families of farmers of German origin had, in violation of the provisions of the Minorities Treaty, been called upon by the Polish Government to vacate their lands before December 1st. The telegram urgently requested that measures [p17] should immediately be taken for the protection of the persons in question.

For others here who are genuinely interested, a couple of good books, recommended to me on this site by the way, are :-

amazon.com/Orphans-Of-Versailles-Germans-1918-1939/dp/0813118034/

These books contain a great deal of documentation and correspondence from the powers that be regarding these issues as they occurred at the time.

My own views however are based on my personal family history which I an unable to furnish links for, and I am afraid your insults will only make you look stupid in my eyes as I am aware of what occurred in my family and you are not.

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]


I dont know why Amazon attached that note about the author and holocaust deniel as this book has nothing to do with the holocaust, the description was about the author as can be assertained in the first line, "for his historical publications".

It would have been better if I posted the link to the British Amazon were there is no description but one review that is more accurate to the book.

Anyway I see Iam wasting my time here arguing with people so desperate to retain their blinkered view that they would resort to character assassination, all one has too do is look at the figures regarding the decreasing numbers of Germanics living in West Prussia in the years after the first world war.

And how my posts confirm I havnt got a leg to stand on is beyond me, you obviously didnt read them or just cherry picked to support your view, heres a bit more copy and paste to help out any 3rd parties who might be viewing this debate which is surely wasted on the posters.:-

German political scientist Stefan Wolff, Professor at the University of Birmingham, says that the actions of Polish state officials after the corridor's establishment followed "a course of assimilation and oppression".[65] As a result, a large number of Germans left Poland after the war: According to Wolff, 800,000 Germans had left Poland by 1923,[65] according to Gotthold Rhode, 575,000 left the former province of Posen and the corridor after the war,[66] according to Herrmann Rauschning, 800,000 Germans had left between 1918 and 1926,[66] contemporary author Alfons Krysinski estimated 800,000 plus 100,000 from East Upper Silesia,[66] the contemporary German statistics say 592,000 Germans had left by 1921,[66] other Polish scholars say that up to a million Germans left.[66] Polish author Władysław Kulski says that a number of them were civil servants with no roots in the province and around 378,000,[clarification needed] and this is to a lesser degree is confirmed by some German sources such as Hermann Rauschning.

History / Was Prussia mostly German? [65]

One side of my family lost a house and all possessions with no compensation, the other side a complete Horse farm.
I think people dont just "leave" all their property unless you were presented with compelling reasons to do so.

If you could be bothered to read history books on the subject, you would discover that some now Polish areas interpreted their governments hostility to Prussians to include violence and even murder.

But oh no, unlike every other people of the Earth, the Polish could never do anything bad eh?