History / Teaching our kids about Poland's History [57]


It's wishful thinking to imagine that a non-Polish country would have as part of its curriculum Polish history per se.

One possible remedy is if you are Polish and have a child and your kid is interested, then let your child introduce aspects of Polish history to the class via self prescribed essay or by linking it to existing topics (ie when there is discussion of habeas corpus, the Polish neminem captivabimus can be introduced: Greek/Roman democracy can introduce Polish democracy: the American Constitution can introduce the 3 May Constitution and so on).

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Did I? Let's have a look at an exchange we had regarding this issue some time ago:


Unfortunately for you, the lie lies in the fact that you say I lied about no Poles ever being invited, when I never said that. See how easy it is to lie about what someone else said when you try to prove a lie you said with another one of your lies. Owned again, aren't you.

Out of interest, having regard to p.505, please elaborate on:

1. when the invitations were sent to certain free Poles (2nd sent., 2nd para.);
2. why the invites were sent at that time (1st sent., 2nd para.);
3. precisely who those free Poles were who were invited (2nd sent., 2nd para.)
4. the invitees response (last sent., 2nd para.).
5. the result of the above vis the participation at the parade (1st sent., 3rd para.);
6. which Poles did not participate in the parade (2nd and 3rd sent., 3rd para.).

To use your own words,


It's always a nice touch to use a liar's own words to point that out to them. Thanks Hazza!!


Poland by that stage was really in no fit state to organise any real form of cohesive resistance because its government by that stage had been significantly weakened both by internal forces and external pressure. There were 3 stages to the partition, the first occurring in the 1770's and the next two in the 1790's (I think) with the last in 1795.

By that stage, the real ethnic 'rulers' were the minority magnates, who had effectively become clients of foreign powers. I know it's hard to believe but they actually formed a confederation allied to the foreign powers when patriotic Poles tried eleventh hour legal reforms to do away with certain legal privileges that had by that time been used by those foreign powers to manipulate the magnates. The concensus seems to be that the magnates identified themselves as 'being Poland' and consequently did not want to limit their democratic prerogatives (ie liberum veto). Anecdotally, I went to Uni and was friends with a descendant of the magnate Jan Branicki, who signed one of the papers ratifying the last partition. My friend was adamant that it was a necessary act of realpolitik and agreed with his ancestors actions.

Examples of resistance were the Bar conferederates and Kosciuszko's insurrections, to name a few (this is the main reason why Kosciuszko is revered to this day). These were more 'grass roots' movements though because their was no cogent, organically Polish government to offer resistance, the 'government' per se now also really being a client of foreign rule. This is all off the top of my head, so I stand to be corrected. If you're interested however I strongly recommend 'God's Playground' by Davies and 'Liberty's Folly' by Jerzy Lukowski for detailed analysis of how Poland's democracy atrophied in the late C17 and early C18.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Sure thing. Catch you around.


Poland would probably have remained sovereign and un-partioned?? Dunno?? What's the answer when someone says what would have happened if I didn't steal something from you? I'll take a real stab here and guess that the thing wouldn't be stolen...


How can one who is daft be daft with purpose? Being daft presupposes that you have no purpose, doesn't it? Oh, I see, you're pretending to be daft with purpose by saying my daftness is purposeful, but your real purpose is to purposely pose a daft question when you know that a daft answer will prurposely be given. Understand?

By the way - nice way of avoiding my proposition that if Prussia thought it was going to be taken by a nation it should have pre-emptively taken them instead. It's daft to think that I would miss that or your other non responses. Are you pruposely being daft in not responding or is it the case that you have no legitimate answer and are again trying to smoke and mirror me?


The "Ozi" in my nick certainly doesn't suggest I'm Austrian.


Insightful. And here I thought we were talking about the partition and Prussia's role in it, but yet again, you choose to deflect with obtuse and irrelevant arguments. In any event, the involvement in so many wars was certainly not the precise cause of Poland's decline into anarchy. It may have precipitated and caused the underlying destabilising effect that propelled the political vacuum that ensued in anarchy, but it was not the principle cause.


Great response! When I'm next confronted with a tricky proposition that I don't agree with but can't argue against, I'll tell my adversary to go read a book. Can you tell me what book to read and precisely what I should be looking out for, because you are effectively saying that your response will be contained within the text of such book. As I can't read minds, you'll need to let me know what from the book backs up your position.


Ah, the joy of the internet forum. When you've got nothing relevant to say, say bye, log out and pretend it's all going to go away... no 'donning of helmet' this time eh? And here I thought you said you were going to defend Prussia in one of your old posts? I suppose you can't polish a turd though, can you...


So sorry - but it was a case of expel or be expelled. You know,


Actually, I'll qualify that and say that the expulsion of Germans was wrong purely because German children were adversely effected and probably suffered horribly as a result of the expulsion. To my mind, children, no matter what nationality, are sacred and sacrosanct, and any act that effects children adversely should be abhorred as an evil. I hope your nation has learned that poisoning your own children's minds and giving them guns to kill others, as it did in the past, is reprehensible - think carefully if you intend to reply with 'those were the times'.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


I'm not asking you to judge them. I asked if you regret what they did.


Again... taken by whom? I assume you mean that Prussia would have been taken by Poland so Prussia pre-empted that with their participation in the partition?

It's easy to defend actual events with abstract notions of supposed potential harm but there is absolutely nothing to evidence that this was the case with Poland vis a vis Prussia.

Unless of course you mean Prussia might have been taken by Austria/Russia? In that case, why didn't Prussia preemptively take from those nations, instead of riding on their coat tails and taking a share of Poland?


Like what? An admittedly flawed but proactive and liberal form of government? Just face it - Poland was light years ahead of Prussia in terms of political consciousness and morality and Prussia didn't like it. It was scared that these notions would spill over and sow the seeds of popular government mandate into Prussia.

Kill or be killed is just a lame catch cry that everyone thinks acts as a blanket excuse for anything.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Disappointing response, because you try to qualify it with this excuse-


Might makes right eh? Social Darwinism? Taken by whom - Poland? Didn't Poland have multiple chances to take away the 'nation' that was to become Germany in future but refrained from doing so?


Letting it happen suggests it was a free and organic process, but it wasn't, was it. It was 3 nations ganging up on a weaker nation. I think they were scared of what Poland had stood for politically and was potentially moving towards. Despotism and absolutism didn't like it, so it was nipped in the bud.

My ancestors didn't let it happen because it wasn't as though they had a say in it. What do you think of your ancestors who let it happen and didn't do anything to stop it. Surely if we accept your proposition that Prussia was enlightened, then ergo your ancestors would have had opportunity to voice their veto of the partitions?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Bratwurst Boy - do you regret that your nation in the past wrongfully took part in the partition of Poland?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


I'm unfamiliar with the term 'seized' in this context but if you mean ceased then I disagree. Having regard to the indicia of what constitutes the existance of a nation, the fact remains that Poland lost its sovereignty, and jurisdiction for self determination vested in a foreign power. The body politic ceased to exist but arguably the biological substance remained. The legality of the methodology and effect of the partitions is relative to your perspective however, and this opens another can of worms.


I don't think there can ever be proof in history because there is no objective arbiter to make a finding of what proof prevails over another proof. Not sure where science comes into it?


Don't both words apply? Unless of course we can describe the fact that a foreign power deposited agents and representatives in Poland without consent as something other than occupation?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Once again, where is the copy of the invitation you purport exists? I have given you many months to procure it and you've come up with: an itinerary!

Once again, p. 505 of Rising '44 by Norman Davies provides the correct factual matrix and surprise, surprise, it is different to your version of events.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Didn't Herr Hitler evoke the myth of Prussia as a call to arms or justification for his vision of Nazi Germany? You can't have your cake (or torte) and eat it too.


I don't get you here. Can you expand please?


What's the propaganda? That they occurred? That Poland was the victim? That Poland benefitted from the partitions?


Why can't I tell you about these things? Does it offend you because your nation in the past did it to Poland and you don't like to hear it because you don't want to believe it, or wish to diminish the impact of it, or justify it by saying that the Poles in some notional sense benefitted from it? Again, face the facts and cop it on the chin that your country perpetrated much evil in the past rather than trying to explain it away or more obtusely, say that Poland actually gained from it.

You'll have to explain in more detail Poland 'profiting' from it as you've again lost me.

What about some of the other points I raised? Can I assume you agree and my positions prevail?

Language / What are the Polish words of Mongol origin? [14]


Uhlan?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Still doesn't change the fact that your nation took part in a partition of a sovereign country and indulged in a blatant act of self aggrandizement, does it. Do you regret that? Could it be that living under a foreign power was hell in itself? If you're indicative of German sentiment on these issues then these sorts of comments simply show that Germans still have an underlying superiority complex and probably reminisce fondly about the good old days of German hegemony. You try to smoke and mirror that by holding yourself out as the purveyor of truth but read between the lines of what you're saying and your agenda, at least to me, is quite clear.

The fact that Poles purportedly prospered under the Prussian yoke says more about Polish resilience and ability to live under occupation than it does anything about Prussian administration. In any event, it matters not, because, again, Poland was partitioned by Germany and there is no defence or mitigatory circumstance that can justify or excuse that act, unless of course you could say that it was a reasonable act of self defence and the measures taken in defence were not excessive vis a vis the threat posed. As soon as you face the facts rather than try to excuse the actions of your country's past with some disingenuous bunk about it being good for Polish people the sooner the last shreds of the rift between Poland and Germany can be healed.


From reading some of your posts you seem to have a distinct grudge against Poland and tend to disagree with any shard of history that is objectively sympathetic to Poland. I find this strange, given that you are purportedly the son of a Pole.

Chill out a bit and don't believe all that you were taught in high school history here in oz regarding Poland. In my grade 12 history book there was a picture and caption of Polish cavalry on maneouvres. The caption said it was Polish cavalry preparing to charge German tanks. No matter how hard I tried to say otherwise, my teacher maintained the book was right! The accepted history isn't always the more correct one.

What is the history that is accepted worldwide regarding Poland? Are you saying that acceptability is attained if the majority says so?


Ha ha. In the sense that he seems to love his homeland and defends it, though a little vociferously sometimes?


Are these like the 'stories' where in the past your country saw fit to try to kill off the Polish people, and not only kill them off but deliver death in a fashion that let the dying know pain and suffering. Perhaps you could share some stories of why your Germany thought it was ok to torture children? Could you say something like it can't have been that bad because all those children went to heaven and all those German soldiers did was simply speed their little souls on their way?

Don't whine about negative stories regarding Prussia/Germany, because at the end of the day if your country in the past hadn't gone down the path it had, those stories wouldn't be told, would they?

History / The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade [81]


Am I? Read the last sentence of p. 376 of Rising '44 by Norman Davies.


Little tyke is a pretty apt description, but no, I won't be teaching him that sort of stuff. Even if I wanted to, my hands are too full just keeping up with the little fella. You'll experience all that when you have your own kid.

My initial reaction was to say something quite nasty in response to you but I'm actually happy within myself to say that those initial feelings were quickly replaced with a feeling of genuine pity for you. I pity you that you feel it appropriate to bring family members into the equation as an attack (though veiled) on me and other persons on this forum.

I'll add to that by saying that if you ever have a child I hope your child grows up happy and healthy, reaches his/her full potential, and makes you and your wife proud, however you measure that emotion.


I did, more as an example illustrative of the point I was trying to make. I think on the issues we've been discussing we'll just have to agree to disagree.


I was in Spain a few years ago and had all the plans laid to visit Poland for a few weeks but time and work commitments cancelled that unfortunately, much to my disappointment. I might like to move to and live in Poland when I retire however, and I plan to retire in about 10-15 years if things continue for me the way they are professionally.

Once my son is a bit older and able to appreciate the experience, I will definitely visit. I'd like to see where my family came from, my grandad's grave and probably even do a bit of soul searching whilst there.

My brother went there a few years ago and stayed for a few months, so I might cart him along, as well as dad, though dad doesn't seem to keen to go back - too many bad memories.

I'll certainly let the forum know if I'm going just in case anyone wants to catch up for a beer and/or wodka (it'll be my shout!).

History / The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade [81]


To the contrary, in my view it would be speculative to suggest they were treated the same and evidence from those who suggest otherwise would be required, as opposed to what you seem to suggest. I suppose the evidence in your favour would be the fact that HMG insisted with Germany that AK combatants be treated effectively as though British soldiers would be viz their POW status on threat of German prisoners losing such status, though arguably this was the exception rather than the rule. Katyn and its aftermath could be evidence to the contrary (ie if the Polish officers were British I'm sure HMG would have intervened more forcefully).


Though somewhat trite, your point is taken, although this presupposes the notion that in order to have a say in something there must be proximity in space and time to the subject matter. How does one make the appropriate benchmark for validity of input? It's again one of those imponderable, metaphysical issues to which there's no right or wrong answer.

Think of it this way - imagine your child/family member/missus was involved in some sort of dispute/fight which in your subjective mind was not resolved satisfactorily and you still feel angered by what happened, even though your child/missus etc aren't too worried about it and wonder why you keep carrying on about it. It's an emotional reaction when someone dear to you is threatened or has been wronged. Posters in the camp to which you disagree with can be seen in that light - they weren't there, they don't know exactly what happened but they're angry because they feel the issue was unresolved and simply for the fact that it happened to someone they love(d). It's kind of a proxy form of guilt finding behaviour and because in the case of Poland and WW2 there will probably never be justice this will most likely continue.


I'm sorry to hear your father had to live through that and for your sake I'm glad he didn't burden you with what he experienced. My dad spoke about his experiences because one day I questioned why he had so many little crater like scars on his shins. The answer was he and his friends were playing in the ruins when a German machine gun crew decided to open up on them, killing most of my dad's friends, with him copping a barrage of concrete shrapnel, thus the scars. He was there in Warsaw when the parachute drops occurred - you can imagine the excitement when this first happened then the despondency when it was realised that it wasn't Polish troops coming to help. His father had just died in the Rising, his uncle was still fighting on under the army who went to Britain, and the hope that Warsaw and Poland would be saved had just been squashed - a bitter pill to swallow.


Does this then mean that anybody (including accredited historians) shouldn’t speak about Poland’s history unless they’ve lived it? Am I acceptable because I’m 30 something and live on the coast?

I suppose that when one has the luxury of a good life and time to spare, thoughts ineluctably turn to self scrutiny and delving into one's past. Those geo-political grievances are only abstract to those to whom they don't apply. From my perspective, they are relevant because the end result of geo-politics in post WW2 Poland led to the loss of a not insignificant family fortune, my father escaping Poland and me being born in Australia. Whether or not something is abstract is relative to every different person or school of thought. In your case it’s abstract but to me it’s not. I’m sure that you have interests or thoughts that I would probably find abstract or even downright boring – but I’m not going to quibble with you and say you shouldn’t talk about them because I don’t like it, or I think you should move on with your life and not dwell on them.


I wasn't aware that I was referring specifically to the 1st parachute brigade in that particular circumstance when making this comment, but you obviously know my arguments better than me. Perhaps try re-reading and you'll see what I meant.


Ouch! Double ouch!!! That's pretty scathing H-dog and bravo for really giving me the what for (BTW: it was cute how you introduced that as a casual ‘by the way’ at the end of your post, suggesting an air of indifference, but I know you’ve been itching to bring it up again). I had a look at that 'list' and responded at the time but I see my post was dumped, probably seeing as you nefariously drew us both off topic in that thread. Be a good lad and see if you can hunt it down for me.

How do you reconcile owning me purely based on me not responding to every droll ad hom attack against me? I just think you’re a bit upset because I’ve already said that I’ve owned you in every debate we’ve had and you weren’t able to show any past discussion evidencing the contrary. Have a crack at concocting another exhaustive list and if there’s anything there that genuinely requires a response, then I’ll do so (and no, you simply reposting yourself saying that I should hold the coat of a Pakistani police man, whilst amusing, is not something genuinely requiring a response!). If you could do that say within the next couple of days and create a thread in the off topic section I’ll meet you there for our ‘show down’.

2nd BTW: don’t forget your asthma puffer Haz!

3rd BTW: were were weren’t


a band from the 80’s, or have you been listening to Stutter Rap by Morris Minor and the Majors on your tape Walkman?

History / The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade [81]


Had they been British then, they would have been treated the same? I doubt it.


In some respects, it's very true. But the flip side of that coin is that some people still have grievances and it's disingenuous to say that they shouldn't because of some fictional and metaphysical cut-off point (ie you say it's been over 70 years). The fact is, unfortunately, some people still live with the echoes of WW2 to this day and it's cathartic to discuss them. I grew up with a father who as a 7 year old in the Rising lived through things which were either sub-consciously or consciously imparted upon me simply by living with and being raised by him. These things impart themselves on the psyche, and it will always be resisted if someone tells you how you should feel, or act on those feelings, if that person hasn't walked in your shoes. If some people get caught in the cross fire of these discussions or don't like them, then switch off, but don't judge unless you've been there and done that. I hope you understand.

History / The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade [81]


I have, but I raised some points which you hadn't canvassed. If you're trying to save face with self serving statements like:


then I misread your capacity and intent in this debate. Indeed, the hypocrisy lies in the fact that you continue to post on these threads with nothing but remonstrations for other people who continue to raise these topics. Can you see the irony there?

Edit


Have a good night mate! It's mid morning here in Oz so perhaps I've got the unfair advantage of a clear head (though a 2.5 year old toddler usually leads to a distinct lack of sleep). I'll look forward to your thoughts when you've caught some z's.

History / The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade [81]

A common response when one has nothing substantial to respond with. Been my experience that it happens in trials when someone in the witness box is caught out or has nothing valid by way of response. It's your prerogative, but I expected a bit more from someone who obviously has a sense of intelligence and analytical nous. Oh well - I'll simply assume my position prevails and that you won't bother picking apart anything anyone else has to say ;-)

History / The heroic jump of the 1st Polish Independent Paratrooper Brigade [81]


How about applying some of this analytical genius and responding to what I proposed to you in a previous thread regarding the backstab at Teheran? You seem quite keen on jumping in threads where Poles discuss WW2 with Harry-esque style negative quips about Poland. The fact that you continue to do this suggests you're just another Pommie-come-lately who himself needs to get a life - if these threads offend you sense of relevance and propriety, then the answer is simple: don't read them, and leave us to live in the past.

The fact that these events occurred 70 years ago is neither here nor there. They are still within living memory and they are topics which are relevant to some and feelings about them are still raw. You haven't been appointed by anyone to be a judge of validity and it’s a bit churlish of you to say that these types of issues shouldn't be banged on about, which is, of itself, an ad hominen, isn't it?

As to the topic, the fact that the 1st was all but wiped out of itself is proof that they were cannon fodder. Where's your evidence to establish the contrary? The soldiers of the 1st were anticipating being utilised over Warsaw but this never materialised (Warsaw citizens thought they were coming when they saw the USAAF parachute drops). This is just another link in the chain of HMG's backstab of Poland. There were rumours of mutiny, but the famed discipline of the Polish troops again came to the fore and they carried out their duty and obeyed orders, knowing that they were being tasked with a forlorn hope but not knowing that they had already been stabbed in the back at Teheran. Arnhem was just another twist of the knife. HMG's refusal of Anders' proposal to use Polish soldiers to fight their way back to Poland in the latter stages of WW2 was one of the last self serving stabs to be delivered. HMG attempted to save face and 'smoke and mirror' their actions by graciously allowing some Poles to stay on in GB after WW2 when the implications of their actions were plain to see - no home to go back to or judicial murder upon return.

The contribution of Polish soldiery during WW2 meant that your grandparents and parents in Britain emerged sovereign and victorious at the end of WW2. The Poles in contrast had none of this. If you can't understand this dichotomy then you'll never understand Poland, its people, and its post WW2 emigre population.

The funny thing about Poms like you is that you cry foul whenever there's an inkling on this forum of admittedly rude, but tongue-in cheek (and ultimately innocuous) Pom bashing but profess surprise and indignation when Poles take issue with being betrayed, murdered by the Soviets and then left to the dogs by a supposed friend. The sooner you realise that your government in WW2 (with the exception of a valiant and morally superior minority) betrayed Poland and did not fulfil its part of the contract, the sooner we can all move on. Deflecting the issues with smoke and mirror arguments just doesn't work anymore.

History / Polish armored trains form I and II World War [32]


Pip pip Hazza - bad day in Poland again eh what? Why don't you remove from your mouth that long hard cylindrical object you're constantly sucking on (your asthma puffer I mean), get outside and do some junk mail runs with your tourist flyers. Maybe you could even do a spiel in your flyer on Polish armoured trains and include the above quoted witticism?

And/or, how about instead of wasting your time posting these silly comments you check out some of my recent posts and give some responses? You being a Plastic Pom and all, it will probably behove you to challenge some of my points... actually, no, don't worry, there's no point really - I've owned you in every 'debate' we've had, haven't I Harry...

[quote=SeanBM]

Thanks for the piccies mate - I had no idea the Polish army had such an effective armoured train contingent.

In the Rising, I think the Gerries used these types of trains to pound Warsaw with high calibre artillery. I suspect that armoured trains were best used in a more static role. Catch you round champ.

History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]


G'day mate - thanks for the links - interesting reading. The last sentence of the 3rd paragrah at p.16 of your second link seems to vindicate your position. I think some people here aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


No, not at all. What I say in a nutshell is that HMG stabbed Poland in the back by not letting the Poles know about the ramifications of Teheran and thereafter continuing to use Polish soldiers to fight a war that was now irrelevant to Poland given the fait accompli. It's really that simple. What do you think?

Do you think HMG did enough for Poland, bearing in mind that in an alliance the flip side of the coin is that you are expected to not only take positive steps to assist, but to also tell your ally that you are aware of something that prejudices the continued existence of your ally?


And more appropriately our prime minister apologised too, and rightly so. These children were placed by Britain into Australia's care and they were let down badly. It's a shameful chapter in our history.

History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]


Why must I understand this in this scenario? Whose act and whose guilty mind? I'm no criminal law expert, but I wasn't aware that common law notions of guilt finding applied to what I thought were code law jurisdictions. How do these apply to a nation cf an individual? Do you mean Stalin per se? What about similar fact evidence?


I haven't said Katyn wasn't mass murder. What I said was that in my view it was the precursor to what was to come, regardless of class, had the Nazis and Soviets remained allies. I thought my proposition was fairly clear and I honestly can't explain it in any clearer terms.


There's no need to profess indignation friend. If you can't understand what's being argued, then ask for clarification and we'd be more than happy to oblige.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


Unfortunately this type of request is a lost cause. I've requested a copy of the invitation from Harry in the past. This is what he came up with (an itinerary):


naval-history.net/WW2MiscVictoryParade2.htm

It seems the link Mr Highpants provided in his quoted text doesn't show up in my post when it's copied, thus I provided the above link which is what showed up as the source when I clicked on Harry's link. For fairness, here's the thread to which the above relates:

https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/news/petition-prime-minister-recognise-35884/

I think Norman Davies clarifies this little embarassing episode of Polish/Pommie relations nicely at p.505 of "Rising '44". It's just another link in a chain that was symptomatic of HMG's attitude toward Poland and her people. The sooner the Brits accept that they didn't treat a friend and ally in the way the should and could have, the sooner these issues can be put to bed. The problem is that the generation of Poles who fought and survived WW2 in the main were too polite and humble to remonstrate with HMG. My generation however demand answers and justice, not excuses...


G'day mate. You seem quite knowledgeable and unafraid to express a point of view. Perhaps you'd be interested in challenging some of my thoughts on the British stab in the back toward Poland in the thread "What did Poland get out of the Wars and Struggles for others" where I talk about Teheran Conference and so on - hopefully you'll give me a run for my money (a pint of Pomgolia's finest and warmest ale to you if you do old fruit ;-))!

History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]



I think, with all respect to you both, that you have in a sense misconceived Dariusz's point by forgetting the dynamic of the era to which Dariusz speaks of.

Link/source anomaly aside, Dariusz points to the epoch when the Jerries and Soviets were allied, and whose raison d'etre, amongst other things, was the destruction of Poland and its people, and had the alliance survived and manifested its full potential there is grave doubt in my mind that Polish people (inclusive) would have survived past their use as perhaps slave labour and for maybe a few decades.

Obviously, it would be near impossible to objectively prove that the 'extermination' would have taken place, because it didn't, in fact, happen, and one cannot prove a negative, though many try and fail. However, having regard to past similar fact evidence of Soviet (and Nazi) conduct during the period of alliance (and, arguably, post same), lines of enquiry indubitably lead to the point whereby the statement "Poland was not the target of extermination" ought to be replaced with the query "How did Poland survive extermination".

Where there's smoke, there's fire - just because the fire created during the alliance was reduced to smouldering smoke by the Russians post Barbarossa doesn't mean that the embers ever died. The new dynamic of the Big Three alliance also thwarted Stalin in carrying out his agenda re Poland and its people.

A parable would perhaps best illustrate my point:

A tomato was eaten when ripe. Of course I now can't absolutely prove that that tomato would have rotted, because it was eaten prematurely and never had a chance to rot. But, left on the bench, untouched, given time it would have rotted, having regard to what tomatoes do if left to their own devices. Sure, it can be argued that it may have only partially rotted, or it may not have rotted at all, but similar fact evidence regarding other tomatoes rotting would compel even the most ardent sceptic to accpet that tomatoes do, in fact, rot.


I agree. It was a link in a chain that was severed after the SU and Germany turned on each other.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

If your response to my previous contention that:

"Polish people can't be held responsible for it - it's anathema to the concept of popular government."

is this,


then why do you persist with this rhetoric:



I just did (it took about 30 seconds only), and found Boguslaw to have raised some issues that are weighty and ripe for your responses. Where are they? I'll simply assume that you agree with Boguslaw's contentions in default of a response, ok.


Harry is actually a true blue Aussie, like me.


I watched an interesting if somewhat disturbing and heartbreaking (I had to switch channels when discussions switched to the murder of young children) documentary last night regarding the Einsatzgruppen actions in East Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states in 1942. Prof. Cesarani was a guest commentator, and was, in my view, quite critical of what he suggested to be Polish civilian involvement and 'auxillary' assistance in these actions.

Whilst he's certainly entitled to his opinion, the issue I found to be curious was when he spoke of other nation's 'auxilliary assistance' he went to some pains to give context to their involvement, but neglected to give context to auxilliary assistance from Poles, leaving the viewer with an impression of Polish 'auxilliary assistance' being an end in itself. Whilst giving context to a scenario should in no way be construed as an excuse or exculpatory mechanism (cf. an understanding of the situation), shouldn't it be afforded to all, regardless of nationality, when discussing these things? Or, should the Polish nationality be excluded from contextual narrative?

History / Poland's General Anders and one of the biggest "What Ifs?" of WW2 [31]

Why Marek? We're not dealing in this hypothetical with a rag tag group of partisans but a disciplined and cohesive army with modern weaponry, tactical prowess and most importantly, morale and purpose.

Imagine the scenario - Anders at the Polish/German border, the AK and splinter units coalescing in Polish territory, displaced Poles in Europe flocking to the colours, unrest in the Berling Army, Bear Cub and the far flung heroes of the Rising reviving AK morale and fighting efficacy... how many more tens of thousands of hardened veterans could have been counted on to rise up again with just a whiff of having a fighting chance under a determined leadership...

Always remember what the boy-soldiers of the AK achieved in Warsaw with their bare hands and a wing and a prayer, and against some of the most vicious and hardened German soldiers that could be mustered. Ask your father or grandfather, if they were there and if they are still with us, what was achieved against seemingly insuperable odds. Ask them what they would have done had word of Anders' coming with a vengeance reached Poland. The spirit and will was still there my friend.

History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [900]


IMO, the issue is not really who was the first to help, because that's academic, but who was involved in the betrayal and backstab of Poland in the ensuing years of WW2. The focus seems to be on a purported lack of 'positive' action, but I think more scrutiny should be given to the passivity, or lack of action, vis the West and in particular GB.

That more relevant issue can be distilled down to the fact that Poland, or more correctly, its emigre military forces under the de facto leadership of GB, were used by GB whilst GB was in full knowledge that Poland per se would cease to exist after hostilities ceased because Soviet Russia was permitted to swallow Poland.

I have expanded on this contention in my various posts under the thread "What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others". That contention has remained unchallenged and in my opinion, goes to the heart of "Poland's" grievance towards the West, but more particularly GB.

Cheers

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


This is indeed a revelation. Any chance of posting copies of the papers?

Many thanks for the info - I'll have to do some of my own research now.

Perhaps this theme is worthy of a new thread?

Cheers, Dan

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


How are you champ? Haven't seen you in quite some time. What's kept you away?