History / 'Poland: A Knight Among Nations' - Book about Poland by an American Author, dated 1907 [51]

Here it is:

constitution.org/jjr/poland.htm

Rousseau, 1772, Considerations on the Govt of Poland etc...

History / 'Poland: A Knight Among Nations' - Book about Poland by an American Author, dated 1907 [51]


I can also recommend a literary work by either Rousseau or Voltaire (cant remember which one). From memory, it was commissioned by King Poniatowski as a critique and instruction on how Poland could get out of the mess it found itself in in the late C18. It should be available online and I'll have a look.

History / 'Poland: A Knight Among Nations' - Book about Poland by an American Author, dated 1907 [51]

Good point, though I would suggest that whether or not resistance occurs, it is still an occupation.

Correct. I suspect though that Otter's response will be that the partition and subsequent occupation was in fact (but not in law mind you) ratified by the Polish Sejm under Russian guns (Silent Sejm??) but that's ok because it was ratified and extraneous circumstances matter not. Thankfully though some of us have moved on from arguing Star Chamber-esque justice arguments.

History / 'Poland: A Knight Among Nations' - Book about Poland by an American Author, dated 1907 [51]

Yeah, I should've figured. He did exactly the same thing in that Nazi War crimes thread, didn't you Otter (I know you're reading this chief;-))


Hi 5 buddy. That was an easy take down. His argument is like saying a punch in the face is really an aimed and delivered swing of the forearm with the clenched fist appendage striking the cranium, and not a punch at all. Go figure.

History / 'Poland: A Knight Among Nations' - Book about Poland by an American Author, dated 1907 [51]

What about me? I feel miffed that you didn't include me in your response group!


and occupation...
Just correcting your mistake.

History / 'Poland: A Knight Among Nations' - Book about Poland by an American Author, dated 1907 [51]


Gday mate - hope you're doing well and on the mend? The Otter is actually a half Polish Aussie like me, though he seems dismayed by this fact. He's pulled this chestnut before and our exchange is copied below:

TheOther:
Sticking to my example above: if the whole world accepts that Poland's territory was annexed for many generations, then I cannot agree to a politically motivated standpoint telling me that the annexation was actually an occupation.

Me:

Don't both words apply? Unless of course we can describe the fact that a foreign power deposited agents and representatives in Poland without consent as something other than occupation?

Suffice to say he never came up with a response. I'm still waiting Otter...

He's a bit of a Neville Know-it-all who's fond of semantics for the sake of semantics and is quite critical of the Polish situation. Check him out making a goose of himself in this thread and the subsequent take downs from other posters: polishforums.com/history-poland-34/nazi-war-crimes-43354/


Thank you. I'll read it with interest as soon as I can.

History / DID THE COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT OF POLAND CENSOR MAIL IN AND OUT OF POLAND [29]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my limited knowledge on this was that the A10 Warthog was specifically produced to counter the threat of Soviet armour?

History / Miracle of the Vistula 80th anniversary? [56]


Indeed. Denikin's forces were close to capturing Moscow. Pilsudski was a man of principle however and refused the call for assistance. I reckon he speculated that once the 'alliance' was concluded, the Whites would probably in turn attack Pilsudski's forces who would be by that stage far from home.

Law / British married to a Polish woman and they have a son. Son's British Passport? [65]

Again, the above are the claims in question to which you have refused to provide support by way of legislation or judgment but now say:


whereas we both know that your reference to "specific statements" made by US govt etc. refer to the report on non compliance with Hague Convention obligations. Are you know saying that like you, US govt officials have also made statements to the effect that the Polish Court system automatically places Poles over foreigners and foreign parents will only ever see their children on the terms of the Polish parent? If so, provide a link to those statements. You're just trying to smoke and mirror though, aren't you Figjam.

I'm confused. If you say that Polish Family Court judgments are 'confidential', the court would be closed to all but the parties, their representatives, witnesses, the judge etc so as to prevent non-parties thwarting confidentiality by sitting in and taking notes of what was said during the hearing and coming up with their own version of the oral judgment. Are you alleging that US consular staff not only somehow sat in on the proceedings but reported and published their interpretation of judgments in defiance of what you say is meant to be strictly confidential. Unless you're now saying the US consulate is exempt, shouldn't you report your revelation to the Court Registry? Shall I alert the US consul to what you seem to say about what they're doing? This is potentially fairly serious Harry.

By the way, do you actually know what a judgment is and what it means to say a judgment is 'unreported', or are you just pretending to know?


If you think it requires an omniscient being to click on your profile and see that you profess to not knowing the Polish language then I guess you can call me that: I'll still call you Figjam though.


Please don't - I don't want you running the risk of being apprehended by the Bailiff for taking photos in a court precinct. If Polish courts are anything like Aussie ones, in the current cliamte of heightened security taking pictures in the court is a ticket to confiscation or the watch house.


I'd be no good to you or your girlfriend. I can't speak Polish, except swear words and other singular expressions.

In all seriousness, I'm sorry to hear your partner has had to go through the trauma of Family Court, and I genuinely hope she prevails with a just outcome for her child and presumably your step-son/daughter. I see the day to day misery and despair these types of proceedings can bring not only to the parent, and particularly the child, but also to new partners. Whilst it's abundantly clear that we fiercely dislike what the other says, you're a human being and a fellow Aussie going through a genuinley tough time and I empathise with what you are all going through. Good luck, and stay strong for your partner.

Law / British married to a Polish woman and they have a son. Son's British Passport? [65]


So to recap, the above was just a lie designed to insult a fellow Aussie and in making the fairly specific claims you did in criticising the Polish judiciary you indeed held yourself out as an armchair expert.

I called you out on the claims and despite the passage of some two days you have still failed to provide any sections from any Polish legislation or any judgments or indeed anything whatsoever to back up your claims. I'd comfortably say you've been owned again Hazza.


No, I didn't claim that at all, did I. All I asked for was objective evidence from you by way of legislation or judgments to back up your claims. I strongly suspect that some Polish court decisions are unreported meaning a judgment would not be accessible. Do you wish to now claim that your above first quoted claims were made based on the findings of unreported decisions and you can't produce the judgment because it cannot be produced because it's unreported? (hint: saying 'yes' will allow you to save face for the moment but if you do I'll have further comment for you which will probably make you regret that decision).


How is seeking evidence from a claimant pontificating? In any event, I'd rather pontificate and be right than verbally abuse and mock and be wrong. Wouldnt you?


Of course you were, that's why you're known on the forum as "Figjam Harry". Must have been a bewildering experience seeing how you don't know a word of Polish.


Of course Figjam.


Whilst somewhat miraculous, I agree with you Figgie, as Australia has a wonderful health system ;-). (*whispering* Do we really need to corroborate our claim with links? Let's just use each other's quotes as evidence to support our claim. If anyone challenges us, I'll verbally abuse them, you tell them you were in the operating theatre performing the treatments (keeping in line with your Figjam persona), and we can meet up for kebabs later on and give each other congratulatory high 5's).


Do you really want me to Figs?

History / How Polish history is viewed by other countries textbooks [124]

There were some interesting discussions on Polish cavalry in WW2 in this thread:

https://polishforums.com/history/military-pictures-38822/

Law / British married to a Polish woman and they have a son. Son's British Passport? [65]


Quite right. A dissertation involves research, individual thought and content largely comprising one's own hypothesis rather than mere quote.


Hhmm, I was unaware a judgment from the Polish court was really a two or three paragraph excerpt from a report. It's not, is it Harry. It's like all those times when I requested you to produce documents backing up your claims and I was met with either silence, irrelevances or insults. When is it going to end Haz?


Again, where's the judgment from the Polish court?


It's not unfortunate and I suppose if I wanted to claim it as being a one off ruling having regard to just those two cases you've cited I would probably be right because the Applicant H.N was successful in having his children returned, wasn't he?

cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=1&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=77710/01&sessionid=54122744&skin=hudoc-en

(para. 54 and 64 of the above linked judgment).

See how easy it is to lie when you don't read and/or understand the proper document but rely on a snapshot written by someone else who wasn't even there.

Interestingly, can you report to the forum as to how many cases in Poland dealing with recovery of children under the Hague Convention have been lodged, then tell us how many were unsuccessful cf. successful and if the applicant was not succesful, then why.



Awesome research Harry - two anecdotes from two anonymous posters purporting to be disgruntled litigants on a blog site. Very probative. Perhaps you can correspond with "Anonymous Dan" and "Bogdan", swap notes, and use each other's quotes to support your own positions. Better yet, why not ask them for details regarding their purported judgments so we can really see what happened.


Fair suck of the sav Hazza - I was unaware that when I was asking you to provide judgments from Poland what I really meant was for you to provide anecdotes and an ECHR decision that was contrary to the claim you made and upon which you relied on same to support that claim. Funny that.

Instead of wasting your time knuckling the above gratuitous but ultimately back-firing riposte, why didn't you provide us with judgments and legislation supporting the following claims:

Harry:
You clearly have no idea at all about the Polish family court system or how it automatically places Poles over foreigners[/i].

To recap, if partially Polish children are in Poland, the foreign parent will only ever see those children again on the terms of the Polish parent[i].

I've italicised and used bold font for your convenience...

Law / British married to a Polish woman and they have a son. Son's British Passport? [65]


Interesting. Care to back that up by providing links to judgments issued by the Polish Family Law Courts?

An 'automatic' guillotine order placing favour by virtue of nationality would have to be enshrined in law wouldn't it? Please provide a link to what section of the Polish law in respect of Family Law prescribes that mandatory consideration for the judiciary.

If you say it's not code law but common law, then provide a link to the precedent. If you say that because Poland is code law oriented and thus does not place precedent value on common law, then code law it will have to be.

As to your claim that the Polish parent will govern terms, is that set out in the legislation? If so, where? If not, what is the authority for that pretty broad reaching power?

As to your dissertation on the Hague Convention and the alleged Polish intransigence to their obligations, again provide a link to judgments from the Polish Family Courts which support your claims. Surely if the recovery failed at first instance by virtue of alleged intransigence on the part of the Police then the recovering party would refer the matter back to the court for non-compliance, thus there should be judgments not only showing the decision at first instance but subsequent proceedings in respect of the recovery phase.

Your intimate knowledge would suggest you're familiar with legal research thus we should expect to receive your findings forthwith. I look forward to reading your research.

Given however that you profess to not knowing the Polish language and given that judgments are probably not translated, it begs the question on what judicially derived basis do you assert your claims?


Ma'am, as has already been said, your son should seek proper legal advice asap to formalise parenting arrangements. If he can't afford it privately, then I'm sure England has community legal services paid by the government. A google search should reveal some options for him. Best of luck.

News / Poland gets a little bigger:) [82]

A cursory perusal shows the links you provided all go to the same document extract, which appears to be a treaty btwn SU, Pol and UKR from 1921, not the document formalising the alliance between Pol and UKR, which is what I want to see.

News / Poland gets a little bigger:) [82]


Liar. It was 120 million roubles.

By the way, where's a copy of the document evidencing the alliance? I'd like to have a look at the terms and obligations.

History / How Polish history is viewed by other countries textbooks [124]


They'd probably be even more surprised if you told them that had it not been for the victory at Vienna the French would probably not have had cause to celebrate the victory over the "crescent" by making croissants!


My grade 11 standard history textbook contained little on Poland except to say that it was the first country invaded in WW2 with a standard picture of Polish cavalry on maneuvres captioned as being "Polish cavalry preparing to charge German tanks".

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


I haven't seen these memoirs. Can you give a link to them plz?


I don't really understand what you mean here. Suffice to say, I've alluded to a 'justification' in my previous posts, that being appeasement of Stalin and amicable relations being secured at Poland's expense.


Again, I don't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

HMG failed to provide to Poland "complete and speedy information concerning any development which might threaten their independence". Stalin's postulation on the Polish border and its political makeup post WW2 was a development which might have (and did) threaten Poland's independence. Failure to pass this info to Poland was a prima facie breach.

A few simple words would have discharged the obligation. It may not have altered the outcome, but that doesn't matter. Formal, lawful and properly executed agreements aside, morality, justice and honour demand that you tell a friend and ally that your other 'friend and ally' has designs on you that could prejudice your existence.

The anecdotal exchange at the bottom of p.442 of Rising '44 says it better than any words I can muster.

The other anecdotal remark of Churchill at the bottom of p. 443 is symbolic and reminiscent of some of the posts on this forum.

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


I'm pretty sure that most people actually do get it, but just don't want to accept the reality of what happened and how their government behaved. These people confuse our critique of their government of 70 years ago with a personal attack upon themselves (or their ancestors) here and now, which is misunderstanding the point entirely.

Myself and many other forum members who are Polish or of Polish descent have nothing but praise and admiration for the heroic efforts of the British soldiers who perished in WW2 fighting for their own country but also for the ideal of a free Poland. HMG failed to uphold and validate those principles and indeed adopted a course of action contrary to same, all in the name of realpolitik and self preservation.

The issue of the Teheran conference and how it effected subsequent allied arrangements is damning upon HMG and their attitude toward Poland in the then prophesised post WW2 socio/political arena. HMG were obliged to tell Poland that Poland was to be subject to a severe border change in favour of the SU but didn't. They acquiesced to Stalin's demands regarding the make up and nature of power in the region of Poland and SU and in turn Stalin relied on the understanding that the SU would have hegemony over their new sphere of influence. That in turn snowballed whereby toward the end of WW2, when the Red Army came rolling over Poland, the Red Army believed it had jurisdiction over Polish territory, founding that assertion on the basis that HMG had agreed to it at Teheran.

Therefore, Stalin was of the view that in terms of agreed Allied strategy per the agreement reached at Teheran, Poland was his for the taking and he had the blessing of HMG to do as he pleased. HMG did not tell Poland of this, which can be attributed to the fact that the AK's SOP was to welcome the Red Army as 'guests' of a soon to be sovereign and independant nation (in Poland's eyes). We all know what the SU did to its AK hosts.

What would have happened if HMG had told Poland of the implications of Teheran? It behoved them not to because keeping Poland in the dark ensured that Polish soldiers under British colours would continue fighting under the assumption that there was something worth fighting for - the slogan 'for your freedom and ours' is a two way street, but HMG by its actions demonstrated that when it came to what the Polish soldiers were fighting for, only the first 3 words applied.

Thus the foundations for Poland's blame culture were laid. It's trite to say that Poland would not be able to blame the Poms if only HMG had fulfilled its obligations under clause 5 of the contract with Poland (how do you blame a contracting party for fulfilling its obligations?), but according to some Poms on this forum pointing that out is wrong, justified on the basis that it was so long ago, what could we have done, don't blame us and so on.

As always, I welcome any relevant response to my propositions but as always, I won't expect anything worthwhile...

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


I've never suggested they should have, and this would indeed have been folly, not to mention the millions of allied lives that would have been lost. To be clear, my argument has nothing to do with the Allies taking on the SU, but rather what GB failed to do during WW2 when the die had not yet been cast.

What do you think about Anders request in May/June 45 to release Polish soldiers to fight on back to Poland being met with indignation and refusal from HMG? I think that answers

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


Fair enough. I had hoped to engage you in a reasonable and respectful discussion, but if you think it's acceptable to swear at someone on an internet forum then that's you're prerogative. Forgive me however if I don't return the expletives or correct you on your spelling errors or gammatical misconceptions, but I'm not cut from the same cloth as you.

Have a good evening ma'm - hopefully I've at least given you some food for thought.

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


That's curious, given that I wrote a lot more relevant stuff before I made that comment and you chose not to respond. What your comment tells me is that you have no response, and instead choose to make a personal attack against me. It's your prerogative, but bear in mind that it doesn't fool me.


That's an excellent reason to stab Poland in the back, isn't it. I'll assume you're totally unfamiliar with Poland's contribution post '39 as a comment like that suggests same, or alternatively you're just making it to inflame? Which one mate?


Share them then, rather than obfuscating. I put my proposition forward re Teheran and you've given no tangible response, except to intemperately say that Poland collapsed after '39 and made no further contribution to the fight, which is an insult to the memory of those Poles who perished under allied colours.

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


Nice one. It's comments like that that tell me these issues will never be resolved and the Poms will keep whining and never accept that they stabbed an ally in the back. So I guess that means the hundreds of thousands of Poles who flocked to the British colours wouldn't have been there to assist your country in WW2. Perhaps the Battle of Britain would have turned out differently, and you'd be speaking in German, and I wouldn't have to listen to your 'whining'? Think about that scenario - finding coal would have been the least of a Pom's troubles.


I know it wasn't. But England did not tell Poland about the deal struck there, that being Stalin would effectively have carte blanche vis a vis his territorial aspirations on Poland. Nor did England raise any relevant protest to that fait accompli. The 'backstab' lies not only in that instance, but also in the fact that HMG used Polish forces thereafter when HMG knew that Poland would effectively cease to exist after WW2. Poland was not given opportunity to consider its involvement. Appeasement and 'amicable' relations between SU and GB were forged at Poland's expense. It's really that simple.

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


I'm sorry for boring you - I hope my comment gave you a laugh.

In all seriousness though, what do you think about what I said regarding Teheran? Surely you've come across the implications of this conference in your readings? Do you reckon HMG should have told Poland?

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]

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It's not about saying sorry - it's about recognising and accepting that your government in WW2 backstabbed an ally. Amongst other things, HMG did not tell Poland immediately about what happened in the Teheran conference, when they should have told Poland. Why would they not tell Poland?

Do you think HMG did not fulfil its obligations under clause 5 of the treaty, linked below

avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

If you think Poles are trying to blame you and the post WW2 generation, you're wrong. You and your ilk will however be blamed for being apologists and revisionists if you try to diminish or smoke screen the gravity HMG's backstab. If you don't think it was a backstab, then defend your proposition rather than burying your head in the sand.

History / The Polish Blame Culture! [330]


When the Poms finally accept that HMG in WW2 stabbed Poland in the back and didn't treat a friend and ally in the way they should have been treated. It's time to move on but that can only be done in fulsome fashion once the Pommie apologists stop trying to diminish the issues and shift the blame.


I think saying "Teheran" is the more relevant word. Perhaps you'd care to comment on what I've said about that nice little piece of backstabbing in other threads and give my propositions a run for their money?

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History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]


Thanks for that. I was totally unaware. Was it deliberate or did they mistake him for the advance guard of the enemy?

You seem quite knowledgeable on this subject of Napoleonics. What do you think as to the proposition that Poland would have benefitted if Nap. had won the war?

History / Poland's 20th century and modern national heroes? [8]

General Fieldorf aka "Nile"

General Leopold Okulicki aka "Bear cub"

There are quite a few 'heroes' who arose as a consequence of the Warsaw Rising in 1944. I suppose both of the above could be considered martyrs.

Rising '44 by N Davies has quite an excellent spread as to Polish heroes of the Rising. One worth mentioning and reported anecdotally in that book was the Polish priest who accompanied orphaned Polish children in their train ride to the concentration camp, singing to them as they walked up the gang plank to calm them down.

My dad told me about a Jewish doctor whose actions were heroic. This Doctor treated AK insurgents but also treated a Wehrmacht officer. My dad saw it when the SS came to take the doctor away to be executed and then the Wehrmacht officer's soldiers put a stop to that by forcing the SS away after a tense stand off. I suppose these Wehrmacht soldiers could be considered heroes too.

History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]


Whilst academic, I tend to agree with this. As far as I understand it, but for Blucher's arrival, Wellington was seriously considering withdrawal as he had just suffered the loss of La Hay Sainte and couldn't stand another cavalry charge en masse as had just occurred. It was Blucher who sealed Napoleon's fate.

It's important to distinguish these issues because we wouldn't want the Allied victory at Waterloo to somehow be solely attributed to Welly's tactical nous.

BTW - have you got any evidence to show it was 'friendly fire' that got Poniatowski. I understood that he was fired on by Allied troops who made it into Leipzig after Poniatowski's rearguard action was withdrawn.

Here's an interesting link on Polish uhlans and their battles against the Poms in the Peninsular Campaign:

napolun.com/mirror/web2.airmail.net/napoleon/Albuera_1811.html

I'm unaware of any English victories of such magnitude over Polish contingents but I stand to be corrected.

Law / Will my friend have to pay back half the loan his ex-wife took out in Poland? [22]


Agreed. Whilst some of the comments here are made in good faith and in the spirit of assisting someone in need I urge you to tell your friend INSTRUCT A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY.

Have your friend do an online search for whatever body regulates lawyers (here in Oz we call them 'Law Society's'), call them and request a list of lawyers in his area.

Given the divorce seems to now be absolute, there could be time limits in respect of prosecuting his case against the ex, thus he should act immediately to preserve his interests.

No one comes to a forum to seek expert advice on dentistry, accounting and so on, so why would you seek legal advice here? I hope you get my point.

If he has difficulties in tracking down a lawyer, send me a PM with where he lives and I will try to track down some assistance either through a private lawyer or a lawyer who may act under a grant of legal aid from the government if your friend is hard up.

Time is of the essence here.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Indeed. Here in oz we call it a title search and conveyance of any property requires such search to be provided to say a lender or purchaser.

Our searches also show when the property was 'created', all past owners, easements, encumbrances, caveats and so on. These sorts of searches are integral to any land registry system and I find it difficult to believe that in Holland this info, even if it relates to WW2 title ownership, cannot be ascertained. Even if so, the chain of ownership of this persons' ancestors' property would be traceable via such search as it applies to pre WW2 ownership.

Surely MareG you could conduct an online search and type in your ancestor's full name or a proper description of the villa he owned? It's inconceivable that any modern, transparent goverment would withhold this information. If they do, then surely you have right to complain to whatever tribunal regulates complaints against your government.