Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

Im all for investing wisely and if you dont understand the markets then it is better to offer the reins to those that can possibly do a better job, but I prefer to take charge of that myself. Whether by in competence or something more sinister, I just dont trust such institutions to do a better job than me.

I have been in Poland for more than 12 years now, I oversee my familys investment in the country. I manage to get back 2 or 3 times a year. Its trivial things that you take for granted that I would miss most about the UK and society. The wheels turn more slowly in Poland on average and that can be frustrating sometimes (time is money is a foreign concept), but if everything here was the same as back in the UK then certain opportunities wouldnt present themselves.

If you are used to the attractions and benefits of a fast paced life in a big British city like London, the small village life in Poland will be a shock, but it certainly gets a lot more up to pace in the largest Polish cities.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

Crowdfunding at that level is passive investing. I have no control over my investment and I lose a slice of my return due to the structure of investment. Just the same as an investment fund in the stockmarket, you have no real control over where they are investing. I do invest in shares, but use EFT's and overweight/underweight sectors given my preference or view at the time. Generally when stuff is offered to the private investor or man on the street, it means banks wont touch them. Nobody is going to pass over a free lunch unless its rotten.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

You can buy units starting from a couple of hundred but these are going to be very small and probably not best locations and unlikely to draw a chain willing to sign up for a long term contract. 500 to 1 million + vat gives you more choice. zostanrentierem.com has a mix of properties across Poland and as far as an exercise in comparing price/size/yield/contract length its quite good to give you an idea of what to expect. You best bet would then be to approach local estate agents and tell them what you are looking for as commercials mostly tend to be sold through agents.

I used to do a bit of golf in the UK and a fair bit of tennis but that was years ago now. These days the kids give me my exercise and take up my free time since there is just the wife and myself, no family that can be relied upon so we tend to do things together or not at all.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

Outside the big cities retail/private rental yields tend to be a little lower since there are less people working, earning less and so less competition for living space. You can make it work in the best locations but you have to select your tenants well, as lower job security and pay means greater risk of non payment.

As for commercial, you can also look at peripheral cities where you can get more space for your money, but you are less likely to find strong national or multinational tenants, which is what I always look for. You will have a contract length of 5 to 10 years, often with the option to extend for another 5 or 10 years. Chains such as Zabka and Freshmarket are larger companies with multi million backing and there is little chance of them disappearing. You can also look at post office and telecoms/utilities companies, anything that is large. There are a lot of units coming up for sale where banks have rented the space. They tend too to have long term contracts but prices are quite elevated as locations are always great and in the next few years I expect a lot of the banks are going to drastically reduce their number of branches, we may even get one or two going bust. So I would stay away from units with banks in them unless the location is great and the price acceptable, since you need to be able to re rent the unit in the future at a good yield.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

Myself and my family from the UK invest in the dolnyslask region. We have properties in Jelenia Gora, Dzierzoniow and Wroclaw. We currently have a mixture of town houses and commercial property. Good locations thats a given and if talking individual units, then smaller ones which are easier to maintain and rent regularly (by that I mean you can sign a 5 year contract once but can you do it again in the future) with solid local footfall. We did have new flats for sale but have sold almost all of them last year, however its not an area we will be pursuing again in the near future as I think its one of the weaker areas of the property market here. You can diversify away from commercial if you need to by renting flats to private sector. I certainly wouldnt consider buying a property that I couldnt visit within a couple of hours drive but Im no expert on the Spainish market and it may be viable to hire an agency to take care of the week to week requirements concerning your property.

Spending 500-800k (maybe 60-100m2) on a small commercial should see a monthly rent of between four to six thousand zloty on average. Often it will be in a new build with low operating costs. Generally the tenant is responsible for the media, you need to pay the council tax which is about 23zl/metre per year for business property across Poland (so about 2300zl/yr for a 100m unit). Insurance will be your other cost, count about a couple of grand per million invested. After this is the service charge for upkeep of the building the unit is part of and paid by the owner of each unit. This varies and you need to check that there are not unfavourable water or heating rates priced into this charge as this will make it less appealing to the tenant and lower your return.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

I hope its not the case but I often find Poles look out for number one. Certainly I experienced this with some members of the family here in Poland. To stay diplomatic thats all that I'll say of this matter.

Personally Im putting together a portfolio of small commercial properties for my daughters, something that they will be able to continue to rent out themselves. The rest Im switching out as and when I feel is the correct time to do, but the small commercial will remain while they continue to exhibit solid fundamentals for the future.

As for your current predicament, only you can and should decide whether its time to call time on your venture. I have experienced small village small business for a couple of years a few years ago. I had some spare time on my hands and wanted to get them dirty so to speak, do something a bit more physical to make sure the health is where it should be. The venture ended up being marginally profitable but ended up taking up most of the week rather than the one or two days that I had originally planned. Waste of time? I did learn a new trade but could the time spent doing it could possibly have been spent more profitably (financial or otherwise) elsewhere? Possibly.

If you do decide to make the jump into property, there really are many avenues you can explore, all offering solid yields and a good chance of capital gain. Stuff on otodom and agency websites in often massively overpriced, but the good news is the differnce between the list price and selling price averages about 25% across Poland, so dont be afraid to lowball. In fact you must, its often the only way to get a good deal. Im not really one to champion private/retail buy to let as I think commerical returns are better and more predictable, but if you buy a few cheap flats or town house, bring them/it up to standard, then it can achieve a solid yield. If you are willing to wait a bit for capital gains, buying in peripheral cities, where prices havent rebound from post crisis levels, means you should be seeing above country average capital gains in 10 years. The downside risks are that they may (but not always; I have stuff on a 8-9% yield almost untouched for 10 years) require more active management on your part compared to large city offerings, but it may be something preferential if you are looking for something close to where you live. At the end of the day property is a common sense business and if you have some of that common sense, you can be an active investor in your business, rather than passive as is currently the case with the bus business.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

Yes its often very difficult to replicate success in a small village. Sometimes people just arent interested but quite often would take advantage of various services/offerings but they just dont have the free funds. Unless you really know the lay of the land and the workings of a Polish village its best to stick to larger cities and more traditional investments.

Life / If UK votes to leave the EU - what repercussions for British people living in Poland? [32]

Its possible they use that delicate approach but in such a case there would be zero benefits to those seeking work although those in work may get some in work benefits depending on how long they have been working in the UK. But its all just speculation as nobody has admitted to working on a plan since the governments main line is to stay even though nearly a third of conservatives MP's are likely to vote for an exit going by a survey done not long after Cameron's so called victory with EU negotiations.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

The problems he has written about wont be solved by adding more buses. He says he has low prices but he cannot make it work. More overheads are not going to make him more profitable. Its the quality of the work taken that matters. And sometimes in certain situations a certain business does not pay. The trick is to be able to coldly assess and make the correct decision to walk away in such a case. In business you stick to what you know and what you can make work. Some people I heard of in this industry are buying new Porsches, cash not leased, but I also know that they arent fully compliant with all laws. In any case they concentrate on, as you have stated, "business clients" put very loosely ferrying people to and from Germany. Can be very lucrative as its a repeat business, generally a person travels every 2 months if caring for the elderly in Germany. And there are likely more people travelling to Germany on such work than the total number of Poles in the UK.

Butf you know property and are comfortable with it, there are many opportunities to earn 8-10% yields and capital growth in the long term if you buy wisely. People in Poland have a habit of trying to convince you how best to spend or invest your money, usually with an underlying interest of their own. Again, one should stick to what one understands. One of Warren Buffetts oldest lines but worth heading.

Life / If UK votes to leave the EU - what repercussions for British people living in Poland? [32]

Referendum is likely June 23 (assuming this months EU summit passes as expected) and likely to be a 56-60% vote to leave. Those already in the UK, settled with passports, it wont make too much of a difference. UK is a pretty soft touch with an everyones a winner policy on just about every level, so its unlikely people will be shipped out en masse. It may be on the lines that those with no offer for work will be given a stated amount of time to leave, while those with a work offer will be given a visa for the length of their contract.

Thatcher was never keen on a full blown EU marriage, she preferred the UK to be the bit on the side with benefits. EU nations are stuck with each, but the UK has ties with the USA, Hong Kong (China) and India and is better suited, as far as its concerned, outside of the EU mishap. Those that believe the UK will disappear down a chasm if it leaves the EU are mistaken. Trade arrangements can be made but the UK makes the EU stronger, with the UK in it, the EU becomes less stable. Of course there would be some initial interruptions and setbacks, but therein lies the opportunity.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

Thats life in Polish small town backwaters. Its the people in these places that are the biggest law flouters and tax dodgers. You really have your work cut out try to compete with them. You can do so but generally then there is not much money to be made. This is why backwaters have stayed backwaters and why the bigger cities have prospered. At the end of the day you have to look at the income people have as it limits what they can then spend. There are some things in such villages you can do if you must stick to something local where you are. Such as renting key space to those providing key amenities. It might be the only bank in the village, or post office, or the single branded mini market in town, but these places will sign up on long term contracts and pay a good rent in the region of 7-12%. Or you could look into non-touch car washes. It is far better to go for the nearest large city as there is more choice and you can sell quicker and prices are more likely to go up faster.

Law / Business in Poland and Polish reality, How are you doing in Poland? [82]

What you are experiencing is a similar shock to most people that come from the UK, especially if its a small rural village. Its a different way of life where things move slow and there is no concept of time is money.

Anyway I used to own a small auto repair in a small town and we did a fair few of these vans. The owners were just interested in keeping the buses running, nothing at all about safety. All for as cheap as possible. As regards fuel you will find a lot of owners buy stolen fuel at a discount. For example take any haulage firm that runs a number of lorries. The drivers will regularly siphon off a few canisters of fuel from each vehicle each week. They know how much fuel the vehicles use and they know how much they can siphon off and all the drivers are in on it. Often the owners know about this but dont react harshly since they want to keep hold of their more reliable drivers. This fuel is then sold on for a 1zl per litre less than the prices at the petrol stations. Very often its drivers of these small vans and buses that buy the stolen fuel. So thats one way they have a head start on you. A second, where there are a few buses involved, you will find the drivers are moonlighting, being employed legally elsewhere, but taking sickies and days off to drive buses and so happy to be paid a few bob cash in hand. Thirdly, you didnt mention this, but quite profitable is doing the bustops between various towns, you need to apply for a licence from the gmina to do that. You charge about 2-5zl per person for a 5-15km run. Here the cheat is that these guys run their buses a couple of minutes before the official ones (via the timetable) and collect up the people at the bus stops without having a licence to do so and of course meaning the legally run buses end up with less clients. Of course the owners of the legit firms dont appreciate this behaviour and I heard of one incident where they surrounded one of such buses and dragged the driver out and gave him a good hiding. Middle of the day centre of town. The good news is the urzad celny has started to take an interest in such activity and buses are starting to get impounded and large fines handed out. But do look into running their bus routes, the gmina would welcome a well run service Im sure.

Real Estate / New flat / apartment - insurance in Poland? [9]

I dont know if the insuring agent has seen the property before providing you with a quote, its important that they do and then you can provide evidence to the contrary of their valuation. Even urzad skarbowa isnt aware of specific situations even in town squares so it may be a case that Generali has just put the numbers into a program rather than having looked into the individual property.

Life / What is meant by 'dochody' (monthly earnings per child) in Poland - are they GROSS or NET? [8]

They are talking net in regards to first child. Cash in hand so to speak. If earnings are below 800zl per person in a 3 person family, then they will be entitled to join the 500 program. If both parents work and earn the minimum wage they will not be entitled as the minimum net wage I think is 1356 but dont quote me on that.

Life / What income/assets and worth, will give you a "rich" status in Poland? [22]

Its just what some people say in the UK Doug. But cash or cash equivalents is not property Doug. 1 large in the bank or money markets. Not talking about anything leased or acquired through debt. Corporations and funds tend to own the larger complexes but small commercial for a million or two can be financed almost exclusively be debt thanks to the low interest rates/bank margins and relatively high yield close to double figures even in the better locations in the largest cities. Its not a risk free strategy or something Id promote given problems outside of Poland, but in 10 years or less your own the unit.

Real Estate / New flat / apartment - insurance in Poland? [9]

Thats surprising, any insurance we set have always been accepted by the insurance companies and generally we have aimed just a little higher than mkt value to be on the safe side. We used PZU and HDI mostly, in some cases UNIQA, maybe worth calling elsewhere other than Generali. Usually the agent wont be afraid to except a slightly higher quote as it means a higher premium for them unless you have really overvalued the property. Maybe the state of the building in which the flat resides was of concern to the insurer.

Life / What income/assets and worth, will give you a "rich" status in Poland? [22]

Dont think there was much of a middle class in Poland, it was the rich and then poor. Then came the mega rich who organised themselves at the table when communism fell, gaining assets for pennies, or groszy I should say. Anyway from memory so dont quote me, the avg wage in Poland is about 4500zl +/-, but most people earn much less somewhere around 1600-2500zl p/m. Even so, in Poland I think its more about what someone has as to how they are viewed by others here. There are those with a high wage that spend it all on an on going basis and have nothing to show for it, while another will earn the same or less but save, maybe get themselves a mortgage to buy a flat/house (low interest rates and generally low prices has meant a lot of people have had access to owning their own property), car, go on a holiday or two a year. That kind of person is seen as well off in Poland, probably a middle class and often resented by those that have chosen a different way of life. Even with the young you often see friction between students and those of a similar age but choosing to do nothing at all. As for the rich, in the UK they say if you have a million in cash or cash equivalents then you are rich, Id guess the same would apply here but obviously in terms of zloty not pounds.

Life / Queues in Poland - everyone in line is sandwiched [44]

Yes and dont ask anyone how they are. Often in the UK when you say "hello, how are you?" its met with a "fine thanks" or something similar. In Poland the greeting is taken as a question and a license to start talking about their problems.

News / PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland [291]

Actually they dont do a bad job of keeping prices on the shelves low either. Bad end of last year Wawel tried to raise its prices given the large mark-up in cocoa prices but Biedronka threatened to pull the pull on their deal. Wawels share price collapsed and that got them to reach an agreement. Biedronka is as tough as they come, they hold no prisoners and will dump one brand for another to keep products at the prices they want.

News / PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland [291]


Morawiecki was the CEO of BZWBK, owned and streamlined by Santander of Spain and he learned much from there expertise. Not the largest, but one of the fastest moving well run banks in Poland. Santander has a history of picking up solid but badly run banks and getting them into shape.

Another Polish entrepreneur, Switalski was responsible for starting both Biedronka and Zabka, he then made the choice to sell them on to foreign companies. Those companies then took those businesses further. The problem isnt that its not possible, its the genrally mentality of people in Poland, they tend to be cautious. It took years to convince many of the idea of home ownership via mortgage rather than rent. You still have a large proportion of people living in cramped conditions because they fear taking on a 20-30 year loan.

News / PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland [291]

Young Poles over the last decade have become more westernised and have learnt how to play the business game. Look at Czarnecki and Getin Bank. Yes its struggling a bit now as are most smaller banks but its a Polish bank built from nothing by a Polish man. There will be more of these but you have to stay integrated with the UK. Just like the Chinese did, they watched, they learned and they made billions.

News / PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland [291]

A a for-profit company is an entity not a human being, its remit is to maximise return for owner/shareholders within the bounds of the law under which it operates.

Law / Buying a car from Poland - any site where you can check history of a car? [15]

People in Germany dont sell solid cars with good history on the cheap. The stuff you see on autoscout or the courtyards run by Turks are for export only and often with dodgy history. Even before the zloty got weak, it was near impossible to privately import an untouched car for less money than a similar car in Poland. Most Poles look for lightly damaged cars, do them up and drive them or sell them on (I used to own an auto garage so I know the trends). There are exceptions where cars are bought direct from insurance companies in Germany, Holland etc and are imported to Poland, but one handler I know of that does this says these cars have new owners found for them before they leave Germany and never make it to otomoto or allegro since there are plenty of people with cash looking for top line motors. The weak zloty is certainly hurting business I expect.

I paid about 2 grand (zl) for a family sized hatchback (like a golf) last year, but that is po znajomosci. Almost no little filling, the odd small dint. Id expect youd have to pay about 3 grand to get it done in a shed somewhere or near 5 or 6 grand in one of the bigger cities in paint booth, as long as there was not much filling work to be done.

UK, Ireland / Daniel Pelka murder: Polish mother and stepfather face life sentences [96]


Absolutely true. They work by the rule book, but all too often situations arent black and white.

Law / Buying a car from Poland - any site where you can check history of a car? [15]

The chassis check is most important. Paintwork is welcome but not as important. A repainted car doesnt always mean accident damage (I have sprayed mine twice in the last 3 years) but it should warrant caution. Most Poles are very proud of their cars. Often they will treat their cars better than their wives ;) Quite often they will repaint their cars entirely or be forced to paint a panel or two if involved in one of the many car accidents that take place everyday. As far as safety is concerned, you want to check the car has not been technically written off. Quite often cars in Poland are welded together from 3 or more parts. Sometimes a jig is used to stretch out cars that would be deemed unroadworthy. MOTs get done without the car ever appearing at the inspection centre. Theres a saying in the industry that if a car has been imported to Poland from abroad it must have been badly damaged or clocked as otherwise it wont pay for anyone to bring it and sell it on.

Law / Running a Car in Poland as a UK visitor - purchasing, registering and insuring it being a non-resident? [2]

You are going to have a fair amount of hassle. To register the car in your name, you may need temporary status I dont know for sure, but suspect so. But you will need to hand over the old registration plates to the local wydzial komunikaji where the registration will be done. So that means a visit to Poland. Normally when you buy a Polish car the insurance (thrid party) passes over to you, unless you declare you dont want it. Otherwise you have to go to the insurance company that has insured the car and get your details transferred onto the policy. Before you do all this, you need to check that the car has a valid Polish MOT because if it doesnt not, you wont be able to transfer ownership of the car let alone drive it to Poland (physically of course you can break the law and drive it but in case of an accident or spot check you will not be insured and also likely face a very large fine or possibly jail). If you have already bought the car you should have received the dowod rejestracyjny, karta pojazdu, insurance paperwork and an umowa or faktura/invoice (more likely if from a dealer) for the sale.

Law / Buying a car from Poland - any site where you can check history of a car? [15]

From that information of course I can have no idea. Check the VIN as I suggested. If car has been purchased originally from a Polish main dealer, it is going to 3 years service history, so for a good deal of its life if its an 11 model. 75k isnt much for a diesel thats 4 or 5 years old but its a smaller car so its not beyond the realms of possibility. But check the VIN to be sure. If car has 50 or 60k after 2 years then its likely mileage will be false for example. Accident damage is another area you need to check. Theres been a huge increase in insurance fraud so a lot of cars have been earning money for their owners but the most important area is saefty and making sure the car is mechanically roadworthy. Looking right doesnt mean it is right. Take the car to a local garage or dealer and pay for someone to check the chassis over. You have to assume the worse and use evidence to prove to you that the car is legit.

News / Poland - Third World Country?? [300]

I dont think we have anything to worry about regarding immigrants. Views are changing but Poland on the whole doesnt tolerate other cultures esp if colour of skin isnt white. Couple that with a very lean benefits system, it means the majority of immigrants will be using Poland as a stepping stone to move onto to Germany or the UK. Those with funds will certainly not stay long and those looking for benefits will quickly move to more benefit rich countries. So with that in mind and in order to keep the EU money flowing, best to let them send a few in as they will be on their way very quickly.

Law / Buying a car from Poland - any site where you can check history of a car? [15]

All yearly MOT (preglad techniczny) now has mileage inserted so if you know someone in Poland that is friendly with the local stacja diagnostyczna, they will be able to provide you with old mot data and thus mileage. Alternatively get the VIN number from the buyer and go to a main dealer who will be able to access service history for the vehicle. You can probably use a main dealer in Athens to do that. Generally cars are serviced for the first 2 or 3 years while there is still a manufacturers guarantee, so you will have an idea of the mielage work done over that time, even if the service history stops then. Also if buying a diesel, expect it to have heavy mileage if buying in Poland. Most cars have 150-200k on the clock but will have done at least twice that. Often cars get imported from Germany with 300-400k on the clock but you will struggle to find a car on a Polish website with anywhere near that. Here in Poland clocking is rife and stitching up writeoffs and putting them back on the road is just as big a problem. Do your homework and if the price is low then expect problems as in Poland nobody will sell a good car on the cheap.

UK, Ireland / Daniel Pelka murder: Polish mother and stepfather face life sentences [96]


Quite possible a mixture of desensitisation and pc is probably what actually happened. Most people dont give a damn, just come in for a paycheck. And they that do care are worried about waking up one morning and reading their facebook/twitter account to find they are branded racists/nazis/(insert your own) for bringing something to attention of authorities. Keyboard warriors and social media have a lot to answer for.