Life / Polish dentistry cost - 230 zl for one tooth cavity filling [99]

did they take x-rays? i say they should have, for that scale of dental work. if they did, you can take the x-rays and show them to another dentist, get their opinion. not sure how much leverage this will give you if they say the work was indeed unnecessary to potentially go after the place you went to, but it would be worth knowing anyway. it's not unheard of that dentists would talk people into getting unnecessary work done, just to ramp up their bill. but unless you have a way of verifying this, you will never know, so from this perspective, if you can't do anything about it, there's no point obsessing about it any more. go do something fun this weekend :)

hey, perhaps you can show the x-rays to harry, he seems to know more about everything that anyone else...

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]

Seriously, people, get real. You can't blame Penn's father, or a lot of others in his situation, for communism in Europe. I'm not inclined to half of the contents of my fridge to Africa, does it make me responsible for the famine there? Most of my clothes are not organic cotton, should I be crucified for global warming? You buy cheap sh*t from China, are you sending the money you save this way to educate poor children there?

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


you're looping. did you take your meds today?


interesting logic structure

so, Harry, what makes you so much better, exactly? what is your claim to fame? you don't seem to be all that willing to say anything about yourself? afraid to reveal anything not-so-saintly? at least Penn is honest about his opinions and his background.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]

Ok, unless anyone has trouble with reading comprehension, i think we established that Penn's father wasn't a communist. The fact that the factory made some military equipment doesn't not mean his father was responsible for the oppression of democracy in the Eastern block. He worked at a factory, he didn't run it. I doubt he had much of a say about what was made there and where it was shipped.

Stealing is never admirable, but neither is passing judgment on people you don't know. And for all the self-righteous paragons of virtue here, the fact that Poland is still perceived as a corrupt country makes you hypocrites. Sure, it's the other people who steal, and the other people who lie. Who pronounced you a saint, Harry? It's still kind of interesting that you seem to know a lot about stuff going on in Poland back then but don't want to say how you learned it. I bet if you were in the same situation, you would steal that factory steel or whatever without a second thought about it.

And there is no doubt that church's mission is to mass-brainwash people, for power and material gain, but perhaps we should start a separate church thread.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


In fact, I didn't. Please indulge me. What's the big deal? Why can't you say how you know this stuff?

I agree about the church, btw.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]

why can't Harry speak for himself? He seems to know a lot about Poland in the 80s/early 90s. I would like to find out how. It's a simple question.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


Harry, can you explain the source of your expertise in all things Polish, and when you worked for the good of Poland?

I would also like to know where


came from.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]

Ok, En, your point has been made mute by Penn and Marynka, so cut your losses...

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]

So, in effect, what you're saying is, in the 80s, everyone in Poland with a respectable position was an incompetent party loyalist? That there was no point in getting education and being smart and working hard? That an "engineer" would get hired regardless of their qualifications? Following that line of thinking, the whole "educated" class was just a bunch of incompetent idiots. Obviously, you won't agree with that statement, and you will promptly give an example of someone you know or someone from your family who did well, got educated, etc. and was not an active communist, or socialist, or whatever there was. So, in essence, you can't apply a generalization to every individual out there. As I said, you don't know anything about Penn's father and yet you claim to know him better than his own son.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


I would like to know what makes you an expert on the realities of living in Poland in the 80s.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


you can't be serious, dude... Polish tanks and rocket launchers oppressing East German civilians, LOL!!! what a drama queen!

what is wrong with you, why are you assuming that Penn is lying? what is so unbelievable about an educated and experienced guy being promoted to a manager? or what is so despicable about a father who got a promotion and provide for his family? You have no right of judging people you never met and have no idea about their circumstances.

Life / Polish dentistry cost - 230 zl for one tooth cavity filling [99]


that's kind of interesting. are things really cheaper? and are people really prone to praying on foreigners?

Life / Polish dentistry cost - 230 zl for one tooth cavity filling [99]

LOL!!!
so, wait, you're a "tourist" and while on your way to see the royal palace, you decided that you need 8 fillings??? LOL! something's really not adding up here...

where are you from? I'm going to start a toothpaste business there...
anyway, I have no clue how much a dentist charges in Poland; PLN 1150 is like US$400. that's like $50/filling; I say you got yourself a bargain. Maybe because it was wholesale...

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]

true, there are generational differences with respect to any large population. I was questioning P's assumption that Havok belongs to a different generation... Anyway, you can't apply generational categories to individuals. There is a lot more that defines an individual than their date of birth. I know people in their 60's that are more open-minded and adaptable than some people in their 20s and 30s. But let's assume that people here on PF are indeed from a spectrum of generations - I can't seem to find the group that's siginificantly more open to different views or welcoming to people from different countries, so perhaps while other things change, that part remains the same.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


the supposed "different generation" statement is factually inaccurate, but nevertheless, almost every thread on PF confirms that those "complexes" persist. Differences of opinion are met with hostility; neutral statements get dissected and become the basis for wild speculations, obviously a lot of people here seem to have the need to prove that they're not any worse than other nationalities.

And yes, people here do pretend not to be Polish. I won't point fingers but if one has a Polish nickname and yet you say you're not only NOT from Poland, but you don't even speak Polish, there is something to think about. If people claim that English is their native language but their sentence structure or their vocabulary doesn't reflect that, there's something to think about.

I would still like to get people's opinion regarding my interview question. Btw, saying that someone's "brainwashed by psychology" doesn't make sense. Yes, Americans contributed a lot to the field of psychology, but you can't be brainwashed by psychology, any more than physics or biology... I'm guessing they meant "self-help" books. Yes, plenty of them are silly, I agree. But the question was not about psychology. It's a job interview, not a shrink session and the objective of an interview is to make the best impression on your potential future employer, not to reveal the inner workings of your psyche or expose your deeply-held religious views.

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


half of that $20 is mine, anyway

Life / Differences in Polish, American and British mentality [237]


word!

Btw, there seems to be a whole crowd of people here on PF pretending not to be Polish, which speaks for itself.


That's a bit naive to say that, particularly after you've been explaining to people that money really does not grow on trees here...

So here's a good example of a difference in national mentalities: I was recently interviewing candidates for an open position with our company. I happened to talk to a few Americans, a Rusian, an Ethiopian, and an Irish (sounds like the beginning of a bad joke...) Anyway, I asked everyone the same questions, and one of them was, Do you believe we make our own luck? Funny thing, the Americans immediately said, Yes, absolutely, and followed with a few examples of how they did from their experience. The Russian and the Ethiopian said No, you can't control your fate, you can only do so much... The Irish guy took answered with something about God watching over us, or some other BS...

Would people in Poland say yes or no to that question?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


i wasn't trying to prove that the Polish stereotype is correct, on the contrary, i was saying all stereotypes are wrong, you can't attribute one adjective to any large group of people.

anyway, what's your answer as to why?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


well, let's think about it. if America is just such a bunch of idiots, how come it's one of the most successful countries, where the standard of living is much higher than so many other places, including Poland, and is a leader in many areas, scientifically, culturally, and militarily? What about all those people who were telling me, No, don't go to Poland, you'll be miserable there, when i mentioned this idea? How about those who left, learned something, and came back? Are they stupid for leaving or smart for coming back? Some of the most backwards countries are the ones that close their borders for people coming in (although I don't see all that many people trying to move to Poland as out of it), and leaving. It's simple, if you don't exchange ideas, you fall backwards, and there are many things that people outside Poland have figured out better and/or faster. Are you proposing everyone in Poland stays put and tries to reinvent the wheel? You yourself mentioned in other posts that Poland is way behind as far as economic development. There is nothing wrong about copying the best ideas out there, but you won't know them without leaving your country. As evidenced by a number of people here, if you haven't lived elsewhere, you have a pretty dim idea of how things work there and why people do what they do. What about the people who leave for better life and, subsequently, make life better for people they left behind in the "old country."

To say that only stupid people leave is such a load of bs, I can't imagine anyone with half a brain would actually say it out loud. You should be happy that some people are brave and enterprising, and open-minded enough to find out what's going on in other countries, because otherwise you wouldn't have a job.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


lol, that's what a double standard! so when there's a stereotype about OTHER ethnicities, it's rooted in reality, but if there's one about Polish people, it can't be?

they are all false. there are as many stupid Polacks as there is stupid Irish, or stupid Chinese.


i think i have to agree with D for the first time ever

ok, question then, if Polish people are so incredibly disliked and picked on by the Americans, name one thing that happened in the past that was some kind of wide-spread and well-publicized (or even government-sponsored) action against them? Like against the Japanese, for example, or people from India or Pakistan, or the Irish?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


you're assuming that the stereotypes are actually true...


I say "Mexican," you think "illegal." That is stereotypical thinking as well.

It's not about actual harm, it's about being "different." All recent immigrants are "different." There is no more Polish jokes than any other ethnic jokes. I know it's nice to feel special, but there is nothing special about it. In fact, many of the Polish jokes have variations where the "Polack" is interchangeable with "Italian," or "Texan," or "Canadian."

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]



both examples tell me that you're talking about recent Polish immigrants. Yes, they do tend to stay together, although it's not a rule, there are exceptions. But most people who claim Polish origin are not recent immigrants. Even first-generation immigrants are predominantly not recent (i.e. past 10 years). The longer you stay here, the stronger ties you form with people outside your ethnic group.


ok, if anyone has an inferiority complex about being Polish, that should cure them...


no, not really. let me ask you, you're going to apply for a job, and the boss thinks all Polacks are stupid, all Mexicans are lazy, and all Irish are drunk. Is it better in this situation to be Polish, Mexican or Irish?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]

yes, Z, they were. that's why there are just as many Italian, Irish, or Russian jokes. They might just not stand out as much in any Polish mind (I would even venture the opinion that some would find the Russian jokes hilarious). And they're all damaging. Did you know that a thing that people thought would be a serious obstacle in electing JFK for president was that he was of some distant Irish origin?


define "most" and how do you know it's "most?"

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


let's say none of those stereotypes paint the respective nationalities as exceptionally smart.
it's not that the Polish negative stereotype is somehow stronger than the Mexican or Irish one. Each of them has their own "label" and all of them are equally damaging. This is not the point. The point is, whoever harbors those does it only to feel better about themselves somehow, which is the case with all stereotypes. You have the "superior" group denigrating the "inferior" one. Happens everywhere. There is nothing special about the Americans disliking or distrusting the Polish.

So, even if it's not about distance, it is about ignorance.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


and the Italians, and the Mexicans, the Filipinos, the Russians, the Japanese, the Indians, the ... (you fill in the blank)

because they're different, and we humans are wired to simplify what we see, so if we don't understand something, we ridicule it. It's just most unfortunate, but it takes smart, enterprising individuals to prove the stereotypes wrong, one by one. I'm also happy to say that more educated people tend to be more open-minded, as do people who come from places with a mix of races and nationalities.

It's very far from truth that negative stereotypes don't hurt anyone, and it's just some PC outrage that makes people fight them.

It's also very sad that some people here who tout their education are not only close-minded but proud of it.


that's actually very funny to suggest that Hollywood is to blame for Polish jokes...

trust me, it's not the Nazis or the Soviets, or any kind of organized propaganda. It's because Polish immigrants used to be unskilled and not adjusted to the culture. I'm saying "used to be." On average. There were exceptions.

It's not a fair picture of an immigrant nowadays to picture them as uneducated and therefore lacking prospects in Poland. Sometimes it's precisely the educated who find better prospects elsewhere. And yes, sometimes it is the uneducated, but again, it's not fair to say that everyone who left Poland is doomed to have a menial job. This has always been the land of opportunity. Very often those who had literally nothing back in Poland, except for a drive and high hopes, here are successful and respected.

Work / If you were to compere Polish Unis and Unis/Colleges in your country... [75]


that's not true. Michigan & CA-Berkeley are both public.

Work / If you were to compere Polish Unis and Unis/Colleges in your country... [75]

usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-universities/2010/09/21/worl ds-best-universities-top-400-.html

I searched for Poland in all the categories, including by subject and by region, and I couldn't find one Polish university.

On the other hand, the Financial Times listed Kozminski (?) University as #39 in European business schools. Haven't heard of that school.

rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/european-business-school-rankin gs-2010

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]

I agree that it would behoove everyone to be more sensitive about other groups, and unfortunately, people in Poland are not the most open to other races and nationalities. Perhaps it will change with time and exposure to other points of view.

While telling insulting jokes says more about the person telling them than the audience, it does depends on the context. I have friends from other states telling me "Texas jokes," but it's just a friendly bantering, and it would be stupid to get offended.

I can tell you, however, how Polish jokes look from the point of view of an American. In the past (I'm talking the 50s), Polish immigrants used to be predominantly unskilled laborers, couldn't speak English, were Catholic, and tended to do everything to maintain their culture, and would send their kids to work rather than school (for reasons of both economic necessity and low emphasis on education in general), and I'm talking overall, if anyone has an example of their rich grandma with a PhD who came to the US in the 50s, I'm not going to argue. So that's how the stereotype started.

Again, any stereotype sometimes says more about the community propagating it than about the "target" group, so not to say there are no stupid Polish people, it really has no validity any more. I can't say all Americans are open-minded, either but, again, hopefully with time, the notion of a "stupid Polak" will go extinct.

To anyone being offended by a Polish joke - my advice is, say something smart back. Clenching your fists is not going to make you look any more intelligent.

Work / Education in Poland - system and structure [118]

For anyone interested in actual data, there is something called the Programme for International Student Assessment

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment

They release annual reports on the level of education in a number of countries.
This year's report says that "Top-performing countries or economies in reading literacy include Hong Kong-China (with a mean score of 533), Singapore (526), Canada (524), New Zealand (521), Japan (520) and Australia (515). The Netherlands (508), Belgium (506), Norway (503), Estonia (501), Switzerland (501), Poland (500), Iceland (500) and Liechtenstein (499) also perform above the OECD mean score of 494, while the United States, Sweden, Germany, Ireland, France, Denmark, the United Kingdom, Hungary, Portugal, and partner economy Chinese Taipei have scores close to the OECD mean.

The lowest performing OECD country, Mexico, has an average score of 425. This means that the gap between the highest and lowest performing OECD countries is 114 points - the equivalent of more than two school years."

there is also a report on the 1998-99 school reform in Poland. I haven't read a lot, just the summary at the end, it talks about vocational schooling:

"Our results suggest that, on average, vocational schooling reduces test scores by a full standard deviation. While other aspects of the reform programme no doubt helped improve Poland's PISA scores, delayed entry into vocational education played a major role. We argue that the way to achieve better PISA scores is through more hours of instruction, greater exposure to testing, and increased student and teacher motivation."