News / What should Poland do to solve the population crisis? [101]


That's what **you** say... :)

Just a few examples which claim exactly the opposite:

guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/may/26/net-migration-uk-immigration

"Net migration to Britain has risen to its highest level for five years, fuelled by a sharp fall in the number of people going to live abroad and a resurgence in Polish migrants coming to live in the UK."

guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/25/uk-migration-rise-poland-eurozone

"The government's cap on migration to Britain from outside Europe is being more than offset by a renewed rise in migration from Poland and other EU countries, immigration experts have warned."

cnbc.com/id/45984816/Eastern_European_Migration_Boosts_Germany_s_Population

"The main driver of this positive immigration trend is the increase from countries who joined the Europe Union in 2004, especially Poland," the office said.

News / Should Poles care who becomes French President or is it irrelevant? [45]


What gives you the funny idea that you have to be French to have an opinion about the election in France?


Part of living in a democracy is to accept different opinions; something you obviously haven't learned yet.

News / Should Poles care who becomes French President or is it irrelevant? [45]


Except for the 48.1% who voted for Sarkozy... :)


LOL! Why do you post on an open forum then?

News / Should Poles care who becomes French President or is it irrelevant? [45]


That's what the Greeks said, too... :)
It either comes from a lender or right out of the printing press.

News / Should Poles care who becomes French President or is it irrelevant? [45]


Typical socialist numbnut: lowering the retirement age, raising the minimum wage and employing an additional 60.0000 state servants. Has anyone asked him who's going to pay for all this?

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


I wasn't kidding.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


No division, no dissociation - we all get along very well... :)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


I'm a precious mix: Polish, German, Dutch... ;)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


:)

Sorry to disappoint you, Natasa, but I'm from Oz (with some German ancestors though...).

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Old enough to be your dad, long enough in business to kick your hairy butt... :)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


I think we are at a point where we can start questioning the honesty of the Polish government... :)

The more I read about this topic, the more I get the feeling that something smells really fishy here. As we've learned earlier in this thread, it's not the predominantly "dumb" who left (and are still leaving) Poland, but the highly educated part of the population. Emigration is increasing and not decreasing, and the number of Polish immigrants in the UK, Germany, Norway and other west European countries is on the rise. Heck, I've even seen web sites which already claim that there is a shortage of highly skilled employees on the horizon in Poland. Which would mean increasing wage levels and a diminishing ability of Poland to compete with other countries for investors.

Let's hope that I'm wrong.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Do you have sources for these claims? All I can find regarding Germany for example is that the Polish government expects approx. 400.000 Poles to emigrate across the border. Nothing about returning Polish Americans (or Poles living in the US going home) though.

cnbc.com/id/45984816/Eastern_European_Migration_Boosts_Germany_s_Population

Thanks.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


What makes you think that every Pole abroad is willing to do that? Even those who do: give it one or two generation(s) in their new home country and they'll forget about their relatives in Poland.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Correct, but the negative effects will only become visible after a considerable number of people have left. That's why I said "long run".

German boyfriend?

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


That's what this thread is all about, obviously. Some see Poland as the next economic superpower which is immune to any ups and downs of the global market, others keep warning and pointing out that the overly rosy picture that is painted is not reality. Poland has made progress, no doubt, but that development can go down the drain in an instant. Just think of the trade with Germany, which is approx. 26% of all Polish exports and imports, and about the fact that German companies are by far the biggest investors in Poland. Germany just has to slip into a bad recession (or even worse: depression), and Poland will inevitably follow. And I'm not even talking about a crash of the Euro. But hey, what do I know - the Polish economy is booming... ;)


Most expats I know say that about their host culture - no matter where that is. People tend to get homesick and after a while they only see the negative aspects of their adopted country instead of the positive sides. That usually changes after a few years abroad.


Exactly. The problem with this is that the young and highly educated will leave for greener pastures and weaken Poland on the long run.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

I can't dumb it down any further for you, sorry. Enough time wasted.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Sorry, I'm not a Pole.


Choose: sourcingline.com/country-data/salaries-software-engineer-web-developer


That doesn't make sense. Salary levels increase, as does the level of education. Countries take turns to be the most profitable one to invest in.


Which doesn't help the unemployed a bit. Go to Spain, look at Greece. You think it's fun not to find a job? The unemployment rate for the under 25 year olds in Poland is 20.65%. You believe that's a success? If you are in the lucky position to have a job - how much pressure is on you today to work 10 to 12 hours, on weekends, being forced to be available even while on vacation? Do you have to manage the same workload alone now that two or three people handled just a few years ago? You could call this "increase in productivity", but you could also call it exploitation to an extent that makes people sick (I see it everywhere here). And you are still under constant fear that you can lose your job any time.

Someone really needs to open your eyes, man.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

In 1990 the unemployment rate was 6.5%, now it's 13.3%...
Try another game. :)


How do you compare to software developers in western Europe or the US?

sourcingline.com/outsourcing-location/poland#cost-competitiveness

See, you're just a lowly paid slave...

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Again, I am not disputing that the GDP has increased. I'm questioning the so-called "EU success story" that is mentioned in the thread title. Is the progress we are talking about really a success story or is it simply a house of cards like the real estate bubbles in the US or Ireland? What about the huge debts in the health care system, the pension and road funds this Rybinski guy is talking about?


You are not really familiar with the concept of capitalism, are you? The moment Polish wages reach a level which is no longer competitive, the moment it is more profitable to manufacture somewhere else, they will close your factories and call centers down and move on to the next country. And not only the foreign investors; the Polish-owned companies will be forced to follow, too.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


You still don't get it. We are not discussing whether the GDP has increased or not, we are talking about whether the success that has been achieved is long term and real, or just temporary and exaggerated by the politicians.


Poland's average unemployment rate was 13.8% from 1990 to 2010, now it's at 13.3% even though millions of Poles left the country. What's the difference between someone without a job who owned a b/w TV 20 years ago and an unemployed individual who calls a flatscreen TV his own these days? They will both tell you that you can stick your GDP where the sun doesn't shine, if you know what I mean.

tradingeconomics.com/poland/unemployment-rate

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

I believe that it is actually quite simple. The drunk folks just stick out more and draw attention, thus giving a false impression of the general attitude of the Polish immigrants.


What bothers me more is: if those are the highly skilled people, how do the uneducated behave? :)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Not true. Take this report from Ireland based on data from 2009 and 2010 for example, and read page 21 'Educational profile'.

tcd.ie/sociology/news/assets/Polonia%20in%20Dublin%20Report%20I%5 B1%5D.pdf

Quote:
"Only 0.7% had incomplete primary or complete primary education. 49.2% had some form of secondary education, and over half (50.1%) had a third level degree."

I was interested in this question, so I dug a little deeper:

eliamep.gr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/michaela_maroufof_pol ish-migration_en_july09.pdf

Page 11, Education level:
"According to the data of the Labor Force Survey for the 2nd quarter of 2008, the educational level of the Polish immigrants residing in Greece appears to be higher, not only than that of the country's total foreign population, but also than the country's general population. As it can be seen in the Chart 4.1, 86% of the Poles who reside in the country are graduates of secondary education, or higher while the corresponding percentage for the country's total population is 66%."

eprints.soton.ac.uk/72026/1/2009_-_New_Polish_Migration_to_the_ UK_-_P_Trevena.pdf

Page 17, Educational profile:
"...the share of highly educated persons is higher among migrants than among the Polish population in general, and in the case of migration to the UK, self-selection according to educational level is particularly strong".

Looks as if exactly the opposite has happened: not the uneducated left Poland after the accession, but the highly skilled risk takers.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

Don't worry too much about it; how this discussion turned out is very typical for PF. Voicing a slightly sceptical or negative opinion about Poland often results in attempts by self-proclaimed "patriots" to personally insult someone, and when those meatheads are cornered they usually weasel out or fall silent all of a sudden. Shrug... ;)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

As expected ... :)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


April 1994: 14.8% unemployment

Between 1994 and 2011: increase in GDP

January 2012: 14.7% unemployment

18 years of GDP growth, back at the same level of unemployment. And you think Poland is immune?

If you come back with another childish insult, the conversation is over.


The interesting thing is that both Peterweg and Pawian completely ignored the remarks of Peter Cracow, who seems to live in Poland as well. Maybe the guy told us some unconvenient truth? ;)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Hm, I don't know what chart you are looking at, but the one I have on screen says something else: GDP 2008 = 263 billion / GDP 2010 = 211 billion .

But that wasn't my point anyway. An increase in GDP (although I prefer the GNI) makes a nice impression on paper, but if you look closer there are many open questions. Such as: what kind of investments flow into Poland, what kind of jobs are created, what are they paying, and who are the people who profit from an increase in GDP? It cannot be the long-term goal of the Polish government to create an economy based on low paying service jobs which can disappear at any moment. Or does the country want to become a third-world nation which is exploited by everybody and his uncle? The "boom talk" is for the investors, the media, and to dumb down the local population.

FWIW (and to prove my point again): this interesting chart shows quite nicely that an increase in GDP (for Ireland roughly 300% in 25 years) does not automatically have to have a positive impact on the unemployment rate.

tutor2u.net/blog/index.php/economics/comments/ireland-mass-unempl oyment-and-shrinking-gdp

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


But hey, at least it's a boom...


Says the expert...
Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story?

You're funny.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

Let me quote from the same source:

"Professor Marian Gorynia, a well known Chinese-Polish political specialist who lectures in Poznan University of Economics, told Invest In that China is seeking to invest in Polish businesses because of their cheap labor..."

Poland is becoming China's location of choice for cheap production ... quite alarming, don't you think?


LOL!

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


Sure it's relevant. Take a banana republic with a GDP close to zero and bring in a huge manufacturer, and watch the GDP explode. On paper it looks like a boom (or better: economic success), but in reality it's not. The country is only being exploited, and as soon as there are better options for the corporation, the GDP will implode again and the banana republic will return to its previous state (or worse).

Not a banana republic, but look at what happened to Ireland. DELL at some point was the biggest exporter of Ireland and responsible for 2% (some say 5%) of the country's GDP.

finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006071.shtml

Then DELL decided that production in Poland was more profitable for them, and Ireland was more or less f*cked. Or as one ex employee put it: "This is not about a company that's in trouble. This is about greed, corporate greed. They're going to Poland because apparently they can make an extra 3 percent."

tgdaily.com/business-and-law-features/40906-dell-to-make-major-pu ll-out-of-ireland-moving-to-poland
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/dell-defects-from-r epublic-to-poland-14134855.html

This will, of course, never ever happen in Poland... :)


So why don't they return in masses if Poland's economy is booming as you claim?


Rose-tinted glasses, anyone?

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


If that is true, what would it say about Poland?


Of course it looks like a boom when you consider the comparatively low level at which the country started. Despite, what kind of jobs are created? Highly paid positions that allow a family to survive without a second income and that generate increased tax revenue, or some minimum wage jobs (is there a minimum wage in Poland?) which only boost the bottom line of multinational corporations?


If there would be enough jobs in Poland, that is. Otherwise you end up with an army of unemployed people that will ruin your economy.


Should read "...in any other country of the former East Bloc". Anything else is comparing apples and oranges.


We are talking about the "booming" economy of Poland here. Why does a booming economy have to "export" millions of people? That's not a boom in my eyes, that's a disgrace. Society invested heavily into the education of these people, why would you give that away if you don't have to?