Language / Polish language immersion, time, fluency [14]

Of course, I know that as I learned Russian at school for 12 years and I am able to read a Russian newspaper even without a dictionary. But still, I find the Latin alphabet easier to "absorb" into my mind than, for example, the Russian cyrilic. It must probably be the case of everyone used to the Latin alphabet.

Language / Polish language immersion, time, fluency [14]

I'm sure it should take much less than ten years. You have the experience in Russian whose alphabet is much more difficult to read through than the Latin alphabet applied in the Polish language.

Po polsku / Niedouk czy co? [68]

"Duma z własności" - coś takiego na pewno by się w Polszcze przydało, ale moim zdaniem tego jeszcze nie ma. Na pewno trzeba na to czasu i tego, że ludzie sami coś budują od początku i to powoli wyrasta w wielkie i nowoczesne przedsięwzięcie. Za takimi przedsięwzięciami muszą też stać ludzie wyznający pewne wyraziste wartości, a jednocześnie bardzo sprawni w biznesie i w grze rynkowej. Różni domorośli biznesmeni w białych skarpetkach ("fura, skóra i komóra") tego nie zbudują, jeśli w następnym etapie nie zdejmą tych swoich białych skarpetek, choć też osiągają sukcesy na swoją miarę. Nie idealizujmy jednak za bardzo ludzi budujących imperia produkcyjne, a potem dumnych ze swojej własności. Wszakże to nie kto inny jak sam Henry Ford mawiał buńczucznie o swoim modelu "T": Można sobie kupić ten samochód w dowolnym kolorze, pod warunkiem że będzie to kolor czarny.

Takich biznesmenów-wizjonerów-ideowców jest w Polsce jeszcze niewielu. Jednym z nich był twórca informatycznej firmy "Optimus" Roman Kluska, człowiek zniszczony przez państwową urzędniczą mafię w 2002 r., oczyszczony potem z zarzutów przez wszystkie instancje sądowe. Jego przypadek do dziś bulwersuje i wzbudza wielkie emocje w społeczeństwie (w najbliższą niedzielę w telewizji Polsat będzie druga część programu poświęconego tej sprawie).

Language / Speaking with wrong Polish case endings? [94]


With this I wouldn't agree. Learning passages gives you more than learning chunks. You memorize how one sentence "flows out" of another, you memorize characteristic words or expressions that serve as "glue" in sticking particular sentences to form a logically contained passage. That helps you assimilate the language as a sort of interwoven entity rather than as a set of isolated phrases.

I did that during my stay in England without any inspiration from a teacher, just because I liked it, and because I noticed it was helping me a great deal in longer conversations with the English people at parties, dinners or other meetings. Without it, I'm sure my English would have lacked fluency understood here as an 'uninterrupted flow of speech with rythm and intonation characteristic for that language'.

To this very day (and more than 25 years passed on since that time) I remember, for example, entire passages from the satirical programme "Weekending" on BBC Radio 4, just like this one below:

People keep saying to me that our policies are wrong and derisive, and that they will wreck British industry... I know... But they are ever so brave! Now, we in the Conservative Party may be wrong, but we are wrong with much more courage than any other party! Certainly, the majority of my ministers disagree with my policies, but they don't say so in public. Bravery is a great attribute and thank God they haven't got it!

The passage shows how people argue their points, what linguistic means they use for developing their argument further (Now, we...), how they counter the adversary's argument (I know, but...) and so on. I also learned in that one logical context where to ommit articles ('bravery' used in a general sense as here; or 'British industry' as 'undefined and opened' reality as opposed to a 'specific entity treated as a whole' in which case the native speaker might perhaps be inclined to use the definite article: 'the British industry').

Language / Word for 'deadline'? [14]

'Nieprzekraczalny termin' seems a perfect translation of the English term 'deadline' to me. Btw, can anyone confirm the origin of this English expression? I've heard it originated in the American Civil War...

Language / Speaking with wrong Polish case endings? [94]

Or, I think that at the Second Language Acquisition study they might have called it "memorizing language patterns" or something similar. I'm sure they must have something of the kind...

Language / Speaking with wrong Polish case endings? [94]

Obviously, not every text is worth learning by heart, but learning by heart (or better say, repetition) is essential for acquiring a second language. That way you build a quick-access resource to which you can reach when speaking ...

Po polsku / Niedouk czy co? [68]


Powiedział ktoś, kto żyje w Hameryce, kraju w którym nikt nigdy - może poza Wall Street - nie zawracał sobie głowy kasą, szmalem czy hajcem ...

Language / Speaking with wrong Polish case endings? [94]


This is so true. But grammar is needed to be aware of what you say and why you say it this way and not the other. For a Polish learner studying English it would be the awarness for using the definite or indefinite articles. Suppose you learn thousands of English text by heart - you still wouldn't be able to produce your own English phrases correctly if you don't know the rules governing the use of English articles, and that's grammar!

Another example is using the Present Perfect Tense by Polish learners, a tense for which ther is no equivalent in Polish. Someone who has learned hundreds of English phrases by heart might not even be incliined to use this tense when producing sentences of his own in English. Grammar is essential, but obviously it won't make you speak the language!

Po polsku / Co powiedział o 4:38? [10]


Co racja, to racja. Nie ma to jak dobry słownik! Skoro to zasadniczo jest przymiotnik, ale mogący występować z końcówkami fleksyjnymi, nie możemy uznać powyższego zdania za zdanie w czasie zaprzeszłym. Gdyby tak było rzeczywiście, zdanie to powinno mieć formę:

(i)Nie powinnam byłam jeść tego ogórka (a przecież ma postać: Nie powinnam była jeść tego ogórka).

Wszakże w klasycznym zdaniu w czasie zaprzeszłym w 1. osobie liczby pojedynczej, końcówka fleksyjna -m będzie występować dwukrotnie: (ii)Nie poszłam byłam wczoraj do szkoły; Nie napisałem byłem nic na forum.

Nikt przecież nie powiedziałby w czasach, gdy czas zaprzeszły był używany: (iii)Nie poszłam była wczoraj do szkoły; Nie napisałem był nic na forum.

Pozostaje uznać to zdanie za zdanie w czasie przeszłym, choć niewątpliwie u wielu rodzimych użytkowników języka polskiego, zwłaszcza u tych znających język angielski, będzie wywoływać wrażenie zdania wypowiedzianego w czasie zaprzeszłym (I shouldn't have eaten that cucumber).

Po polsku / Co powiedział o 4:38? [10]

Czy w tym zdaniu mamy do czynienia z czasem zaprzeszłym, już w polszczyźnie nieużywanym? Jest tutaj wyrażenie "powinno się" w połączeniu z czasownikiem "być". Klasyczny czas zaprzeszły to np. zdanie: Nie napisałem byłem żadnych postów na tym forum. Rzecz jasna, dziś nikt już tak nie mówi. Ale w zdaniu: Nie powinnam była jeść tego ogórka, mamy przecież identyczną konstrukcję.

Nie potrafię wszakże znaleźć bezokolicznika do "powinnam", zatem nie jest to chyba czasownik, tylko jakieś wyrażenie czasownikowe. W związku z tym wcale nie mam pewności czy można uznać zdanie z ogórkiem za wypowiedziane w czasie zaprzeszłym. A czy wy mielibyście jakieś przemyślenia co do tego problemu?

Po polsku / Co powiedział o 4:38? [10]

To jedna z trudniejszych rzeczy w nauce języka obcego: odsłuchując wypowiedź w języku obcym, często nie potrafimy rozróżnić wyrazów w jakiejś pojedynczej zbitce wyrazowej - w powyższym przykładzie w zbitce: jeść tego ogórka. To samo spotyka też mnie, gdy odsłuchuję różne wypowiedzi w języku francuskim, którego języka teraz się uczę. Za nic nie umiem rozszyfrować pewnych fragmentów, ale po przeczytaniu transkrypcji nie mogę się nadziwić, że dana wypowiedź składała się z bardzo prostych słów, takich jak na przykład tutaj: jeść [eat] tego [this] ogórka [cucumber].

W moim przypadku całkiem niedawno nie mogłem rozszyfrować francuskiej zbitki wyrazowej se taille la part du lion w zdaniu: L'Asie se taille la part du lion (mowa o konkursie "7 nowych cudów natury" rozstrzygniętym 11.11.2011, w którym Azji przypadła większość miejsc na tej liście), mimo, że mamy identyczne wyrażenie w języku polskim: zagarnąć (wykroić sobie) lwią część.

Language / 'lubię, lubisz' - Infinitive [86]


With this I cannot fully agree. While the accusative case was eradicated from all other English nouns, it has been preserved in several personal pronouns such as me, him and them.

I've seen him lately [not: I've seen he lately]
He saw them in the street [not: He saw they in the street]

That is exactly how the accusative works. A case forgotten by the native speakers of English (schade, wirklich schade!).

Po polsku / Niedola polskich wynalazców? [6]

Raczej ogólna niewydolność organizacyjna i brak długoletnich tradycji w poruszaniu się w świecie wolnorynkowej rzeczywistości.

A swoją drogą, pełno tam złodziei w tym Cambridge (brytyjskim czy amerykańskim?) !

Po polsku / Światopogląd polskiej młodzieży? [14]

Niesłychanie rzadko - o ile w ogóle - słyszę w Polsce termin "skonsumeryzowany/a". Ześwieczczony, zblazowany, zramolały, zglajszachtowany, owszem tak, ale "skonsumeryzowany" ? - to chyba tylko jacyś domorośli pseudointelektualiści tak się wyrażają!

Zdywersyfikowana - mówimy też zamiast tego "zróżnicowana". Jest to mniej przeintelektualizowane, a bardziej sympatyczne.

Language / Czego, Czemu, Co, Kto, Jak, Dlaczego? [64]


No one disagrees with that. It is simply that some masculine nouns not necessarily describing edible things take the -a ending in biernik as well. It has nothing to do with the dopełniacz taking the role of biernik. Such phenomenon doesn't exist in Polish. You confuse this with the phenomenon of certain verbs taking biernik in place of dopełniacz, such as in the case of the verb "ustąpić" requiring traditionally kogo? co? - dopełniacz, being replaced with "ustąp mi miejsce" (kogo? co? - biernik).

I dare say "kup mi balona" existed and was deemed correct 30 years ago and even more, just in the same way as "zapal mi papierosa/palić papierosa" has existed in Polish for a very long time. The best way to be sure is to read the pre-1939 press or literature.

Language / How hard is it to learn Polish? [178]

Indeed. Thanks for the correction, Lyzko. "Kennen" is what I certainly had in mind; my German got a bit rusty though (schade!), but I'm thinking of getting at it once again on the occasion of my contemplated visit to Berlin next year to which city I haven't been since 1976 or 1977! :-)

Language / How hard is it to learn Polish? [178]


1. The reason is that in Polish we need a noun to describe ourselves in terms of nationality. Thus it is: "Jestem Polakiem/Anglikiem/Amerykaninem" which should have been translated into English by: "I'm a Pole/a German/an American". However, Polish people, even those who speak bad English, immediately adopt the right formula in English uttering properly: "I'm Polish/English/American", but I 'stawiam dolary przeciwko orzechom' [unfortunately, I can never remember how this saying goes in English] that they do it without even realising that the English syntax require the adjective rather than a noun here (the reason for it is that Polish people frequently forget of attributing a countable singular noun with the indefinite (or definite) article in English, so "English" would mean "English" as well as "an English/man/woman" for them. On the other hand, English people learning Polish will asume that for introducing one's nationality an adjective is required in Polish as well, hence they would apply such a rule to their Polish sentence, saying: "Jestem Angielski", plus they would start the adjective with a big letter which only corroborates that they attempt to place an adjective describing nationality here, not "seeing" the neccessity for a noun in the phrase!

2. If you compare the usage of "connaitre" and "savoir" in French to the usage of "znać" and "wiedzieć" in Polish, you will know the cause of your mistake. I believe they make the same distinction between the two such verbs in German as well ("koennen" and "wissen"). Apparently, the English language does not.

Language / Czego, Czemu, Co, Kto, Jak, Dlaczego? [64]


It is not dopełniacz, but it is biernik still. To find out, you replace "balon" with a feminine noun like, for example, gruszka:

Kup mi gruszkę ("gruszkę" is biernik in singular, whereas dopełniacz in singular should be "Kup mi gruszki".

The question will be "Kup mi kogo? co? [biernik]" and not "Kup mi kogo? czego? [dopełniacz]". One wouldn't say: Kup mi samolota, kup mi telewizora, kup mi telefona komórkowego.

It is not only grammarians who claim otherwise; most native speakers feel it in this same way as grammarians...

Language / Czego, Czemu, Co, Kto, Jak, Dlaczego? [64]

I imagine doing such exercises must be a pretty depressing job. Why don't you try to "bite" the Polish language from a different perspective? Your method reminds me of my efforts to master the declinations of the German noun with and without the German adjective, for example. This had been leading me to nowhere until I began to learn the language through contexts, trying to memorize proper word endings through the relations of objects represented by those declined words in these specific contexts. That way I had almost completely "forgotten" about the tables of German declinations and started to learn the language in a more natural and a hell more friendly way.

Language / How hard is it to learn Polish? [178]

And yet, despite any similarities between Polish and Russian, I found Russian more difficult to learn at school than English. Similarities may often be confusing, and here I do not even mean false friends, but the pronounciation and how to decline nouns. One of the more complicated things in Russian for the Polish learner is stress which in Polish is fixed on the second sylable from the end of the word, while in Russian it is mobile.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]




Once it's been so shrewdly proven by PWEI (very good job, my congratulations, Harry!) that Air Canada has an older fleet than LOT (the main reason why the first one of the posters would never board LOT aircraft, but would not hesitate to fly Air Canada), the argument is now moving towards the age of the interiors and the overall qualty of service. Does it have any deeper sense?

Pip and Aphrodisiac, to help your superiority complex a little, let's agree that Johnny English wouldn't mind flying with either of them. But he would definitely look more "stylish" in the modern and elegant interiors of Air Canada planes!

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

For sure there was such thing as Polish ethnicity, but it was not necessarily very distinct around AD 966. Yet even at that time there used to exist a common language group which later become known as Polish. The tribe of Polans spoke basically the same language as the Vistulans, so was the language of Mazovians (the Pomeranians however belonged to a different language group). The language of the Silesians could differ a little bit more, but it seems to have been linguistically closer to the Polish group than to the Czech-Slovakian group, although we must bear in mind that in 966 Polish and Czech languages were much more closer to each other than they are today.

The concept of "tribe" itself is very much challenged by scientists today as one which is old-fashioned and not very accurate, so one should not assign such an importance to one tribe or another.

The literaly form of the standard Polish language has been based on the dialect of Vistulans with incursions from the dialect of Polans.

Life / WHY DO POLES USE ENGLISH WORDS IN CONVERSATION? [396]


They appeal and try to get attention of the younger genaration. "Extra dodatki" is supposed here to mean "fajne dodatki" alongside the obviously redundant "dodatkowe dodatki" meaning. Both meanings mix together which shows that language shouldn't be explained from the puristic point of view only. "Za free" is replacing the older saying "za friko" (which I don't believe to be of English origin altogether).

All this sound more amusing than funny. It is just the jargon of young generations which might easily be replaced by something different which will be more "chic" or "en vogue" at the very next minute. If not, it will continue for some time, maybe for ever, but will always remain within the frames of colloquial, somewhat entertaining usage.

Whereas your attitude towards the purity of the Polish language is something I may admire very much, there is a neccessity to see things in their proportions. Native speakers of English do "feel" English terms in Polish in quite a different way than we, Polish people, tend to feel them. And maybe the last sentence of my preceding paragraph explains this difference in perception between the two. So let us leave this "disgusting" usage of English in Polish there where it belongs - to colloquial and slightly entertaining one which makes us, the native speakers of Polish, elicit a very subtle internal smile on seeing descriptions like "extra dodatki za free" at coffeeheaven outlets. For goodness sake, LIFE IS NOT SO (BLOODY?) SERIOUS!

Life / WHY DO POLES USE ENGLISH WORDS IN CONVERSATION? [396]


It is indeed. In fact, it is the same what "masło maślane" is; "dodatek" is something that is "on top of", exactly the same what "extra" means. "Extra", or properly spelled, "ekstra", is used as a noun, and not as an adjective like in the above example of yours; one may thus say: dostaniesz także coś ekstra ode mnie.

"Ekstra" as an exclamation showing excitement or approval is just another meaning of this noun.

Language / How hard is it to learn Polish? [178]

Learning Polish isn't hard at all. Just look at the totality the Polish children who are able to master it fluently almost without exceptions. And that is the ultimate proof: if a Polish child can do it, anyone can do it (and particularly an American can do it) ...

Real Estate / Demand for apartments low in Poland's main cities [89]


In 10 years time it will be a 12 year bubble, and in 15 years time it will be a 17 year bubble. This bubble will never ever stop as it is an ongoing bubble. That's what it really is.

Language / Lat V lata [8]

- Od jednego roku;
- od dwóch, trzech, czterech, pięciu, dziesięciu, dwudziestu jeden, dwudziestu dwóch, stu pięćdziesięciu siedmiu ... and so on lat.
-----------------------------------------------
- Przez jeden rok,
- przez dwa lata, przez trzy lata, przez cztery lata;
- przez pięć, dziesięć, jedenaście, dwanaście ... dwadzieścia jeden lat ;

- przez dwadzieścia dwa, trzy, cztery lata, then again: dwadzieścia pięć ... trzydzieści jeden lat;
- przez 32, 33, 34 lata, then again 35-41 lat;
- przez 42, 43, 44 lata, then again 45-51 lat;
- and so on ...

UK, Ireland / Feedback needed from Poles confused about English [12]

Thanks for the corrections. In the second one of them I wrote my sentence with in first, then I began to think it over as the subject of the thread was Polish speakers confusing English prepositions :-) ... and I made that mistake! What's more, I did exactly the same with the former one of my two mistakes!

That may lead us to an interesting conlusion: the more we are thinking of the possibly of having been just making a mistake in a foreign language, the more likely we are to make them. The obvious source of mistakes in employing prepositions would be that they are different in our mother tongue than in the foreign language which we learn. But is it the only explanation? It is possibly the most common one, but there also must be some other reasons (like in the above case of mine). It could be quite interesting perhaps to find them out and show in your "language usage presentation".

UK, Ireland / Feedback needed from Poles confused about English [12]

For/since could be mixed up in Polish, although teachers try to stress that the English language makes the distinction between ''for six years" and "since 2005", while Polish does not (it employs "od=since" for both).

Confusing on/in could be quite popular as it is often found in the case of "in television" or "in the internet" (I believe that "on the internet" is correct). "To" may be confused with "in" as many Polish speakers might say "I've never been in England" rather than "I've never been to England". For some other examples, you may click in my profile (or is it "on my profile?) to find out my replies at different threads (again, I was wondering if I could also use 'to' and 'in' along with 'at' here, and which one would be the best) in which I'm sure you'll find mistakes in my using prepositions in English. I am a native speaker of Polish who have lived in Poland all my life. [Any feedback on my wrong usage would be welcome :-)]