History / Was the Polish/ Lithuanian commonwealth a European power? [111]

Merged:The Polish/Lithuanian Cth. - the greatest political/legal/religious experiment ever?

Hi all,

I've always been fascinated by the path the Commonwealth took (particularly in the C16&17) in respect of the political/legal/religious fields.

The concepts of Noble Democracy, Monarchical Republic, freedom of religion, Neminem Captivabimus, Nihil Novi, Henrican Articles, Pacta Conventa, Liberum Veto and myriad other principles and laws, have to me always been remarkable, having regard to when they took place and the fact that they were in the main, actually practiced.

The 'spirit' behind these concepts, I think, is aptly captured by King Zygmunt Jagiello, who famously uttered "I am not the King of your consciences".

Was the Commonwealth the greatest political/legal/religious experiment ever (apart from say Ancient Rome of Greece)?

News / Polish politics: Lessons in etiquette [15]

Thanks Boletus.

Your interesting dialogues bring to mind the antics of Stanislaw Stadnicki, who in the early C17 openly called the King a perjurer and a card sharper, or of the Polish Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth 1, who criticised her war with Spain as effecting Polish trade. Good to see Poles in power staying true to the antics of their predecessors!

Genealogy / Germanic or Polish Prussian? [3]


Hi Pete. Welcome to the forum, and good luck in ascertaining your genealogy.

Whilst I don't have any direct comments for you in relation to your queries, I strongly recommend you to read God's Playground by Norman Davies (2 Volumes). His book contains an excellent description of the Prussian partition, and life thereafter, in occupied Poland.

To understand where "Prussian's" fit into the Polish dynamic, I think you must understand the complex history. Why not have a look on Google at "Prussian homage to Poland" and Prussian partition of Poland. That will set you in the right direction.

Cheers

Love / Prevention of child abduction by Polish mother. [232]


Hi. Is your lawyer aware that you are on this forum posting about your legal matters? If not, it might be prudent to let her know asap.

History / Historical perspective of the relations/fear of the Bolshevik party & Poland [2]


Historically, I think the implacable animosity that Poland had toward the Muscovites/Bolsheviks (and vice versa) can be traced back to Poland's image of itself as the Bulwark of Christendom, and the notion that the Muscovites were a Eurasian horde seeking to take over Western Europe, and Poland.

Whilst neighbours, the two countries were, historically, completely different in terms of their attitudes toward government and civil liberty, amongst other things. These differences were irreconcilable. The reincarnation of Russia as the paragon of Bolshevism was merely another link in the chain of Russia's further descent to despotism and Poland's struggle to re-establish itself as a modern, democratic society. I do not think it was Bolshevism per se, but rather the fact that it was still the same old Russia but under a different political guise. Poland's victory over the Muscovites in 1920, and her subsequent failure to capitalise on same, is redolent of Poland's greatest attribute, and failing.


I would caution against gross generalisations of what the Polish Jews may or may not have done during WW2 as against Catholic Poles. There were a far greater majority of Polish Jews who served their country without fear and without regard to the fact that they were of a different faith to their fellow Poles. Let's focus on that. To focus on the minority is to afford them the attention that they do not deserve. Silent scorn is the response more richly deserved.


Children are just that - children. They shouldn't be included in any type of negative argument regarding the purported actions of their parents. Anyone who cites the actions of children in support of a negative argument against the group to which the children belong needs to look inside themselves and realise just how disgusting that type of argument is.

I'm not being critical of you here Marcin, but I simply can't stand hearing these things about children as though they have some sort of blameworthiness here.


I regret to hear that they experienced these things and hope they survived the war and flourished after it. It's always been my view that whilst it may be therapeutic to talk about these things, the best things that Poles (and those of Polish descent like myself) can do is do the best you can in your life, be honourable, be wise and just, excel professionally and remain true to those traditional virtues of the szlachta. To be the best you can be, and to be 'better' than those around you, is the truest symbol that the biological substance of Poland, no matter how far flung around the world, has survived and flourished, and the sacrifices made by our descendants have not been in vain.

History / A little reminder for those Brits that ***** about Poles [143]


Your memory does your submission a disservice. You'll have to revert to our discussions on other threads regarding Art. 1 for my position, which was, and is, contrary to what you say above. Why don't you trot along and do that, then report back to me with your findings.


Again, your memory does your submission a disservice. I actually went into some great detail about my position viz Art. 5. When challenged, you, if memory serves, said you couldn't give long posts from your "IPhone" and would respond when you arrived at your "office". I think I even gave you some example contra-indicators that you could use to try to rebut my position. We're still waiting...


I wouldn't have a clue. Perhaps you can summon to mind who it was. So as to avoid further embarrassment for yourself for another memory slip, you should probably double check before posting.


I'm confused. You said I didn't give any detail regarding "how a plan that Poland's borders would move...", but here you invite us to laugh at my assertion regarding same. How, pray tell, is one to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory submissions? Here's a little lesson for you - when you don't tell the truth, you have to rememember what it was you said that was untrue, and you, quite simply, forgot.


First you wish me a death from cancer and now you mock my handicap! In any event, my one legged postion (metaphorically speaking) is well propped up by the crutch that is your inteptitude and ham fisted attempt at argument...


Can you see the chronological fallacy inherent in your post? When was the Teheran Conference? In any event, are you suggesting that Sikorski ought to have risen from the grave, tapped Churchill's shoulder at Teheran and reminded him of his contractual obligation to advise the Polish Govt in Exile of developments at the Conference? I was unaware (though unsurprised) that prior to plying your current trade of distributing tourist flyers you were an author of children's fantasy.


When it comes to owning you on this forum, you are indeed my lucky charm. As luck would actually have it, Busia is calling me over right now for some pierogis and golumpkies.


Hi Tcat. Can I have your opinion? Do you think it was objectively just and equitable for HMG to adopt the position they did viz the Free Poles at the Parade (and just before), notwithstanding the perception that it may strain relations between Britain and the Soviets? Do you think that at the very least it was HMG (and I stress the British Government, not the British people) playing sycophant to the Soviets?

History / A little reminder for those Brits that ***** about Poles [143]


Plurium interrogationum.

The better question is to ask why HMG failed to comply with its obligations under the Treaty of Mutual Assistance. I've been waiting for you to answer this for some time Harry...

Edit below


That may be my friend, but it would have been their decision and the consequences their own to consider. The effect on morale in Warsaw when it was realised the Polish paratroopers weren't coming was severe - my dad was there, and there was so much hope pinned on this occurring, but it didn't.


I'm surprised you'd say somethin like this - it's below you.

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


and you my friend have done a quite reasonable job of presenting an argument based on the broken window fallacy...

USA, Canada / Polonia who needs help with Polish Documentary [27]


G'day Sakowicz, and welcome. Are you familiar at all with Ross Kemp's documentary series on gangs? He did one a while back on Polish neo nazi gangs, and there was a large element of football hooliganism there. Best of luck mate!


Start with Norman Davies' work God's Playground, and go from there.

History / Romantic Aristocrat Stories from Poland's Past [16]


Gday Smurf - what about the love story concerning Pan Skshetuski and Helena in Ogniem i Mieczim?


Good suggestion - Napoleon to Pani Walewska: "I see only you, I admire only you, I desire only you". If that doesn't smack of romance, then I'm a monkey's uncle!

Somewhat darker, though romantically underpinned, was King Zygmunt's devotion to his wife, Barbara Radziwill, who died young. If I recall, the grief stricken king took to wearing black after her death and never recovered.

History / Do polish people know that some of them fought a war against the United States? [60]


May I ask if you think it important to qualify that phrase with "Communist"? I think it important to distinguish "free" Poland, as opposed to Commo Poland, don't you? It's just so that people who aren't really familiar with history understand the nuance attached to any deed or thing by the qualification that the subject is Communist, or to that effect.

I also personally think it's an insult and an affront to the memory of those that perished fighting for a free Poland to not delineate between the actions of those under Communist Poland and those living in free Poland.

History / Do polish people know that some of them fought a war against the United States? [60]


A rose by any other name.


Inconsistent comparison.


Communist Poles you mean?

Off-Topic / I thought my house had ghosts, but according to a paranormal psychic it is hovering demon [30]


I believe you. I've had a similar experience, though not as severe, when I was in my mid teens. I suspect that only those that have experienced these types of things can relate, because these types of experiences cannot be explained, and you know it when it happens.

My friend was with me at the time. We were staying at his house and had gone for a motorbike ride. No one was in the house, as his mother and sister were on holidays. The house was isolated on an acreage.

Anyways, we had parked up just under the house (it was on pylons). It was late afternoon. We were getting ready to go inside when we heard a noise from inside. It was coming through the floorboards and was only a few metres away, over our heads.

It wasn' what we saw but what we heard - I can only describe it as a disembodied voice that penetrated through the house, speaking in a language we had never heard of. It sounded deep and evil.

My friend and I looked at each other to verify what we had heard. We got back on the bike and didn't return for a few days. There were no signs of entry in the house. We still talk about this incident. We both agree it was something paranormal and it wasn't good. It still gives me goosebumps.

We spoke to his mum about it later, and she told us she had seen something years before at the house that looked like a Chinese man dressed in mandarin style.

The same friend and I saw something else that still creeps us out. Again, we had been bike riding, in a forest, and were parked in a clearing to have a break and a ciggie. I saw something through the bush (Aussie low lying scrub with gum trees) probably 20-30 metres away, which I thought was a gigantic kangaroo - it was absolutely massive, with short brownish-grey fur - I guess 7 foot high. It was just standing there. I pointed it out to my friend and he freaked out. It turned its face to us, and it wasn't any kangaroo, or anything we had seen ever. It was vaguely humanoid, and that's all I can remember now.

It just stood there, looking at us, unmoving. I freaked by that stage too - and guess what - my old Yamaha GT80 decided it didn't want to start. The feeling at that stage was not good - utter helplessness. I got it going and we took off. This creature never moved toward us though. Thank Christ it didn't.

Thinking back on it and examining the situation, the feeling I had at the time was reminiscent of blindly walking into something you shouldn't experience, or standing outside the window of a house where something bad is going down and one of the occupants looks up at you.

To those of you who doubt, you'll know it if you experience it.

History / Interesting memorial about 212 Polish soldiers [18]

Thanks for the info mate. Great story that I was totally unaware of. Cheers.

Good on the Poms of Portsmouth!

History / Why have Poles contributed so little to Academics? (Particularly Science) [180]


But the OP asked a question about Poles (inclusive presumably) rather than Christian Poles. I'm a bit confused here, are you the same person?

I infer from your quoted post that you wish to cast a negative aspersion vis a vis Poland's purported lack of contribution to academia. I apologise if I am wrong and would appreciate clarification. Cheers.

History / Why have Poles contributed so little to Academics? (Particularly Science) [180]


They have. Why not google "Timeline of Polish science and technology". That'll set you right champ.


These Jews are Poles of Jewish faith nonetheless aren't they? Why distinguish?

News / What's the stupidest question asked about Poland? [414]


Were Cool Rock-ski and Lovebug Starski Polish?

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]

PWEI?


Can someone tell me who this noob poster is please? He's carrying on like he has some issue with me. It's as though he's upset because I've owned him on several occasions in the past on this forum (viz Harry), but surely that can't be, because I've never communicated with this PWEI.


I'd like to help you chief, but I just don't understand your question, as it makes no sense - i.e. it would be a strange agreement indeed that had parts showing independence being threatened. Perhaps rephrase it?

Actually, now I remember - there was an Aussie chap who called himself "Harry" on this forum (he hasn't been here in a while, having, one can only assume, exhausted himself online from a surfeit of self-important toast liberally smeared with lashings of figjam – or was that kebabs?) and we had some particularly interesting debates on this very topic some time ago. There's a wonderful feature on this site called "search" - you can look up our debates (yes, before you come back and say it, I know, I owned him in every genuine debate we had).


Ah, we have a dilettante on Sikorski in our midst. Pray tell (as your knowledge on this would undoubtedly surpass mine), what was the rationale behind Sikorski's proposal here and what where the salient features of his proposal vis a vis how same could benefit Poland? Surely he didn't really mean to just give away parts of the Kresy with only a commensurate border shift to the West, as you imply? How did he go with putting this proposal to the Polish Govt in Exile? Did it ever progress beyond an ethereal pipe dream? Tally-ho, you’ve got some research to do…


When, then, was Poland made aware of this, and by whom? If it was indeed HMG bearing the message in discharge of its obligations under Art. 5 of the Treaty in consequence of matters arising in respect of Teheran, then tarry not and send Harry a PM advising of same, as I'm sure he spent many a sleepless night fumbling through Wiki looking for this very same piece of evidence in rebuttal of my proposition.


If this simply did not exist, then it is a simple matter to demonstrate that which existed, the existence of which would simply vindicate the rebuttal to the simple charge that HMG, simply put, betrayed Poland, when, to put it even more simply, a simple message of simplistic narrative, simplifying the simple outcomes of Teheran, simplistically delivered to the Poles, by simple minded people, was, to put it simply, never delivered. Simple no?

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


How so?


How do you embrace your heritage?

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


The 17th. Why?

It doesn't change the fact that you got owned in trying to deliberately inflame this thread by suggesting we give thanks to the Soviets. Come correct next time. It's not cool to despise your heritage - embrace it - it's a good one.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Sorry, not an opinion, a fact.


Why not? You're brave enough, with your comments, to insult the memory of our ancestors who perished under the Soviets, and disrespect the members of this forum who were effected by same, behind the safety and anonymity of a computer screen, so why not go there and tell them how you feel at the Club.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Non sequitur mate. Go on then, pop down to the Ashfield Polish Club and propose thanks to the Soviets

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Go on then, pop down to the local Polish Club in Ashfield and tell them this Otter. It makes me shudder to think that you are an Aussie with Polish parents yet you come up with comments like this. Go away and stop trolling with inflammatory comments.

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


There was indeed. Whilst I'm unaware of specific instances of popular protest, I understand there was a strong and vociferous minority of politicians who risked much to decry HMG's (and specifically Churchill's) policy of appeasement to the Muscovites and treatment of Poland, consequent upon HMG's acquiescence to Stalin's designs for keeping what he had gained of Polish territory (Yalta).

The more relevant back stab was, in my view, the failure of HMG to tell Poland about the critical issues materialising out of Teheran, not to mention HMG’s craven acquiescence to Stalin. The backstab is even more serious because it was in breach, and in contempt, of HMG’s obligation to tell Poland (per Art. 5 of the Treaty) of any development that would threaten Poland’s independence.

Consequently, Poland was unaware that it was to be subject to significant and prejudicial changes to its borders and socio political makeup after the dust settled on WW2.

Stalin took it to mean that HMG probably couldn’t care less about what happened to Poland post WW2. Ergo, in my view, his actions, probably commencing at around the time of the Warsaw Rising and subsequently, should have come as no surprise to HMG and probably occurred in large part due to the fact that Stalin understood he had carte blanche and jurisdiction to do as he pleased in Poland, because HMG acquiesced to his designs as articulated at Teheran. As to what the USA did (or didn’t do), it’s largely irrelevant in this context because they were not contractually bound with Poland, morality aside.

The basest treachery lies in the fact that HMG continued to use Polish forces to continue fighting even after the treachery at Teheran, when the moral and just thing to do would have been to release the Poles, given that the Poles were now fighting for everything except their own interests. But no, this didn’t occur, because to do so would have been contrary to further British interests of using Poles (arguably the best contingent under HMG’s auspices numbering in the hundreds of thousands) to shed blood and die under the false assumption that they were fighting and dying for an ally and for mutual gain.

I think it was General Gubbins who articulated, in relation to HMG’s attitude to Poland, words to the effect that “we’ll squeeze as much as we can out of them then drop them”. Even that sentiment was incorrect, because in the early months of 1945 when Anders sought release of Polish forces to fight their way back home, he was refused. Bled dry, with pennies dropping all around him, how must Anders have felt to have been refused his request.

The story of HMG’s treachery toward Poland in WW2 is that simple. I believe that had the people of Britain known what was going on at the time they would have put a stop to it.

History / 1920 Battle of Warsaw - English trailer and film [55]


Hey champ, I think we'll have to wait for this to come out on Foxtel, or go with all the babcia's/busia's down to the Polish Club to watch it.

History / The strange destiny of Antoni Aleksander Iliński [32]


Hi mate,

If memory serves, this portrait appears in the Osprey Men-at-Arms series of books, in the Polish military edition. I think the subject was an Oginski, or the leader of a mercenary Polish outfit in Western Europe, painted on his reurn to Poland circa the Swedish Wars in the 1650's, as I recall the commentary to the portrait.

I'd have to say his hat is a kolpak, progenitor of the busby and other fur trimmed cavalry hats. Cheers.

News / Who is "the enemy within" in Poland? [88]


The 'enemy within' could potentially be those expats who would fight for their natural country rather than their adopted Poland, in the event that Poland went to war with their natural country, or vice versa.

History / Poland during the Renaissance [146]


I think the point Dariusz was trying to make (and forgive me if I misunderstand you ZD), is that rather than going through a 'renaissance' per se, Poland, in essence, during the Renaissance period merely led the way in the cited disciplines, consequent upon an organic predisposition toward those being the best in those disciplines rather than as a reaction to, or by virtue of, what the renaissance was all about?


Good point. Supreme tactics unparalled at the time (say early 1500's to mid 1600's) with another resurgence (albeit limited) during the Napoleonic period.


'Tis ironic in the circumstances that said 'bashers' have referred to our good selves as the 'nasty brigade'.

History / Poland during the Renaissance [146]


I think the two key areas where Poland (and later Pol/Lit Cth) 'did something' during the Renaissance period were in the fields of Constitutional/legal reforms and military theory.

Poland was the only country in Europe to have in place a gradually increasing volume of laws and Constitutions essentially de-centralising 'power' away from the monarch, thus paving the road away from centralised, autocratic and absolutist rule.

Whilst the 'power' of the ruler was diminished somewhat, it was more the case as I see it that the ruler was to be held accountable, and hamstrung in regard to any machinations toward autocratic rule, rather than being politically impotent. I think it was Davies who suggested that as a consequence of the Pacta Conventa and the Henrican Articles (amongst others), no king of Poland could have aspirations other than being a closely monitored manager of a body politic. That said, a competent monarch, such as Batory, wielded power effectively, ensuring that the checks and balances against unilateral and arbitrary exercise of power were rarely evoked by carefully navigating through what he could and could not do.

Whilst these political/constitutional imperatives may seem commonplace and unremarkable to us relative to today's democratice principles, it must be remembered that the context to which these reforms took place, against the European backdrop of absolutist leanings at the time, were quite simply remarkable.