Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]

They got it pretty well. Pity those girls don't speak Polish :)

Food / What's the name of these (they look like large fish fingers) [6]


They are delicious. Don't ask this type of questions too often, it's cruel.

Food / What's the name of these (they look like large fish fingers) [6]

Krokiety i barszcz czerwony błyskawiczny...

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


a British stereotype of Poles :) We put ketchup on everything. And it's based on sound foundations. Ketchup helps you to actually eat English food. Lots of ketchup. Helps a lot.

There's one exception, though, fish and chips. They got good fish here.


I think you would. Only it's me who's asking. Not that I am trying to be difficult, I just can't see a natural reason, so I'm assuming a reasonable explanation. Like, was there a channel, or a program, specialising in Italian jokes?

This reasonable explanation of mine is not the answer still. Still we do not know the reason for this campaign, do we? Although some ideas may lurk around.


Thick Paddy in England has historical roots. Rather strong interaction and the need to denigrate the wronged nation. French and German stereotypes about Arabs and Turks (if it's true) come from the massive and troublesome recent migration. Polish jokes on dumb Russians are just a part of 'Russian jokes', and have easy to spot historical reasons too. America is a big, easy target for everybody, still the majority of jokes about Americans are not about their stupidity.

Poland and Poles, for Americans, were either non-existent or unimportant, few of them knew what this ethnicity was about. America never hand any contact with Poland, and Polish migration was incomparable with the recent Muslim deluge. Poles integrated just like any other nation. Poles didn't show any striking vice, like Italians, or the Irish - so they were hit by the ever handy 'stupid X' stereotype. The question is, why.

Unless you really can prove what you claim - that, unlike other countries, Poland exported a mass of idiots. Or that idiocy is national Polish characteristics, so there was nothing else to export.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Oh, you can, and you should. Helps a lot in everyday life. Provided the stereotype has some sense in it.

Two Somalians travel by car. Who's driving? A cop. That's just an observation, popular wisdom. Wouldn't work for people from Ghana, wouldn't work outside the UK. In London it's just common sense.


Orchestrated Anti-Polish campaign, general answer. Since I see no actual reasons to consider Poles significantly more stupid than all other immigrants to the USA. Granted, Poles were not amongst the pioneers, but there were lots of other nations that jumped the wagon rather late.

Italians did their share in creating their stereotype, Cosa Nostra was a fact. Mexicans are mostly illegal in the USA, hence the stereotype. The Irish love a drink, and are proud of it in a way. Why Poles stupid, then? Poles like a drink too.

The current stereotype of Poles in the UK: builders, cleaners, kitchen porters, they put ketchup on everything. Based on reality, no problem with it. And hardly any jokes, even good-humoured. I don't know a single one, actually. A bit disappointed, in fact.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Can be. Show me. Find me some sources showing that Poland exported mostly idiots, not like any other country. 'Obviously' other countries kept their lowly uneducated to themselves, right? Or they didn't have any, so they got rid of criminals, drunks etc. Etc. including delphiandomine.


The question, in the topic, is 'reason for...'. Means 'why'. Seems simple enough. You got an answer?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Seems they were doing Poles a favour :)


I am assuming stereotypes have roots in reality, often quite strong. I can't actually see the roots of 'dumb Polack' stereotype, so I am assuming the reason for these jokes was not an existing stereotype, but the other way around.


Of course.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


In Europe, I'd say so. In the US too?

Another thing, those millions of stupid Poles migrating as of late all over the Europe. Somehow I can't see any wave of 'stupid Pole' jokes. In Germany, afaik, it's mostly about searching for your stolen car somewhere East of that river, wossname...

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Yet this ignorance results in showing Italians as mafiosi, and Poles as idiots. Different kind of ignorance?


Exactly my question, worth repeating again. Any 'Ruski jokes' in the USA?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


This was further on, right.

The question remains, how come that only stupid Poles migrated, and not stupid Italians, Germans, Irish, whatever, as it has been suggested here.


I just did a hasty research:
Italians - predominantly criminals, mafiosi
Mexicans - lazy thieves
Irish - stupid, Catholic, drunk (not sure these were American jokes)
Germans - ?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


And why not? Seems a popular sport in Europe.


That's what I thought. A result of Polonia crying, I guess.


Interesting interpretation. Seems like history repeats itself? Couple of million stupid Poles fled Poland after 1990, having lost the Soviet protection, and the intelligent ones stayed there to build the 3rd RP?

Why not start with some solid background? Surprisingly easy:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_joke
Many of the so called "Polish jokes" originated from Nazi German and Soviet hate propaganda in conjunction with their joint invasion of Poland and further attempts at confounding of the Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Soviet repressions. Some of these jokes were subsequently brought to Hollywood from war-torn Europe with waves of Anti-Polish bigots.

However,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment#United_States
British writer Christie Davies in The Mirth of Nations, which suggests that "Polish jokes" did not originate in Nazi Germany but much earlier, as an outgrowth of regional jokes rooted in "social class differences reaching back to the nineteenth century." According to Davies, American versions of Polish jokes are an unrelated "purely American phenomenon"

For decades, Polish Americans have been the subject of derogatory jokes originating in anti-immigrant stereotypes that had developed in the U.S. before the 1920s. During the Partitions of Poland, Polish immigrants came to America in considerable numbers, fleeing mass persecution at home.

So it's not 'distance and ignorance', and not a 'usual thing not worth mentioning'. But no explanation still. Why would the citizens of the land of the brave make such effort to denigrate Poles in particular? And the Irish, I think...?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


I see. There must be hell of a lot of jokes on stupid Kalmyks too.


Somebody mentioned here that Polish jokes were popular in some media. Doesn't look like rednecks to me.


:)


Doesn't work against TV

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Really? The nigger thing? What the world has come to....


You shouldn't be surprised, Poles in Poland hardly know Polack jokes. But believe me, they would be upset.

Ethnic jokes are an artistic expression of common stereotypes, so you can pretty accurately predict what the 'German' or 'Russian' joke will be about, and only then it is considered funny. If the pictured stereotype falls far off the mark, it just says that the intent is to propagate this particular opinion. Now what would be the reason for Americans to consider Poles so stupid?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Seems a fresh import. Wonder where it came from.


Certainly. Hardly any 'n-sensitive' people in this country. What's the social circle you're referring to? Not the GW spheres, I presume?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Hardly ever on TV though


There's no such word in Polish.

Language / Z pięćdziesięciorgiem dwojgiem dzieci? [26]


Sto dzieci, dziesięciu mężczyzn i cztery psy. It's not complicated, you just got three independent groups, one after another.

Language / Z pięćdziesięciorgiem dwojgiem dzieci? [26]

I was thinking about it some time after posting. I have no problem with 'z dwojgiem dzieci', 'z pięćdziesięciorgiem siedmiorgiem dzieci' etc. but when the number becomes longer, that is when it has 3 or more digits, my syntax changes, and 'ze 199 dzieci' just doesn't sound right.

At first I thought it's just some peculiarity of my personal Polish. But, how would you say 'with 100 children'? Ze stu dziećmi, isn't it? Or 'ze stoma dziećmi'... definitely 'z tysiącem dzieci', the numeral here becomes the object, at the expense of kids, and it feels similarly to me with 199. But then it's just a feeling, possibly the actual rule is that the weight of the last non-zero digit dictates the case...?

Language / Z pięćdziesięciorgiem dwojgiem dzieci? [26]

I reckon it goes up to 99. Ze stu dziewięćdziesięciorgiem dziewięciorgiem dziećmi. Dziećmi, not dzieci.


Trzydzieścioro siedmioro ludzi. Trzystu pięćdziesięciu jeden ludzi. Ludzi is easier, it takes masculine quite easily. Dzieci is more of a problem. Trzysta pięćdziesięcioro [i]jedno dziecko.


Osiemnaściorga. Tysiąc czterysta osiemnaściorga. Dla stu dwadzieściorga jednego dziecka. Dla stu dwudziestu jeden dzieci... sounds quite popular, though, somehow. Although, yes, it has that burakish tint.

You don't have real problems, do you? :) Who counts hundreds of children with this accuracy.

edit: dla tysiąc czterystu osiemnaściorga. Sorry. Polska linga difficulta molto.

Po polsku / Tragedia jezykowa, czyli "stay on topic" LOL. [95]


To może mieć małe znaczenie, ludzie się przemieszczali po wojnie. Ale nie upieram się.


Pamiętanie ma mało co do obyczajów językowych, logika podobnież :)

Powiem szczerze, sam nie jestem pewny jak mówię, czy półtora dnia i półtorej doby. Muszę kiedyś posłuchać. Na rozum, to jaby masz rację, i to nawet brzmi zdecydowanie naturalnie. Na przyzwyczajenie, to sam ciekawy jestem.

News / Poles don't have a heart for math... says The New York Times [84]

As would I, in fact. The event itself somehow doesn't seem to me important enough to report it over the ocean, so it rather looks like they're just taking the opportunity to say what they want to say. But, this is what they call 'teoria spiskowa', innit.

Po polsku / Tragedia jezykowa, czyli "stay on topic" LOL. [95]


Nie jest to przypadkiem regionalizm, po prostu? Takie mam wrażenie, że na wschodzie 'półtorej' jest bardzo popularne.

News / Poles don't have a heart for math... says The New York Times [84]


Well, there's no Polish School of Mathematics there, reasons unclear, although possibly not really suspicious, as it is really hard to get squeezed into the first 30 of al times.

The article is bollocks, though. Either those Polish professors were misquoted, or they just don't really know Polish history.

During the 19th century there were two main efforts of retaining Polish identity, the 'romantic' one, resulting in insurrections, and the 'positivist' one, which meant 'retaining the Polish substance' by education, social advance, growing influence. After the last insurrection in 1863, the positivist attitude took the upper hand, and it resulted in patriotic Poles both seeking and spreading education. The result was that Poland was exporting engineers to the vastness of the Russian Empire and the world in general.

After 1918 those migrants flocked back to Poland, to rebuild it after the WW1 fronts had levelled it down, and together with the locals they performed the miracle of raising from the ashes.

The Polish School of Mathematics is not something one can suddenly conjure out of thin air, it needs at least one generation of popular, sound education in mathematics, in order to create the pool from which to choose those most talented. And this 'at least one' generation needed the teachers to educate them. This generation created the 'Enigma trio', and allowed the Polish intelligence to read German Enigma codes long before the war. Turing was basing his developments on Polish achievements. This was not a handful of mavericks, it was a result of a long lasting effort.

And the commies didn't suppress the technical education neither, they needed engineers to develop the industry. There was nothing much to improve on the technical and scientific education after the fall of communism, actually the impression is that the post-commie 'improvements' were a step back in this area. Only as late as 2001 maths ceased to be obligatory as matura subject. A huge mistake in opinion of plenty of Poles.

So, my conclusion is, that either the NYT is (understandably) ignorant about the development of Polish education during the last 2 centuries, or it is just another, this time nicely veiled, attempt to present Poles as a bunch of simpletons. It doesn't matter at all that they use quotations from renowned Polish scientist to promote the idea. 'Creative quoting'' is one of the basic tools of dedicated journalism.

And now go compare the Polish education in maths, however damaged it may be in the recent decade or two, with the country once being in the avant garde of technical development, where stating 'my maths is miserable' is considered a fashionable attitude of a successful individual. And by 'maths' they mean the four basic arithmetic operations... For a Pole, it's a shock. I could tell stories about it, Poles in Poland would not believe.

So, this article is bollocks.

Sorry for the long post, but I've been cut off the Internet for 5 days...

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Then 9 years was not enough in your case, simple. It's not about time spent, it's about that little effort of acknowledging that people can think differently. Tell a Pole he might become Jewish, he'll laugh at a stupid American. Tell a Jew he is a Pole, he will laugh at a stupid American. This is Poland, in Europe, not the USA.

Just in case: I am not saying you are stupid. I am saying you are not interested. Typical for the Americans :)

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Really. I don't think (so). Polish Jew is a Jew born and bred in Poland, he is not a Pole. And he doesn't want to be a Pole, he is a Jew. American Pole is a Pole who was lucky enough to get the US citizenship. He is a Polish American too, no problem, depends on the mood.


Americans don't understand that, I know. Thing is, if you want to know what the world outside the USA is like, you have to apply a non-American way of thinking. Otherwise most things will be nonsense to you.


Welcome to Europe :)

Not to the EU, which is a different thing. They even consider (reluctantly) admitting Turkey to Europe.


If you want to understand Poland, you have to learn how to see things from Polish perspective. American POV is useless here and misleading.


Envied.... :)

AFAIK, getting the US passport entitles you to feel 100% American the very moment you grab it. Not so across the pond, as the Brits call it. Definitely not so in Poland. To be a Pole, you need layers of white-and-red moss sentimental about sabres to grow on your skin. Speaking figuratively :) It's nationality, not citizenship.

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]

It's about Poland, not the USA. Different country, different culture, things understood differently. American take on nationality leads to ridiculous conclusions in Poland.

Po polsku / Tragedia jezykowa, czyli "stay on topic" LOL. [95]


'bedom', Borrka. Polska język trudna język, ale po tobie się tego nie spodziewałem :)

'W cudzysłowiu' to jest tak popularny i dawny błąd, że już chyba stał się normą. Język się zmienia.

Znaczy, ja też tak mówię, chociaż ktoś mnie kiedyś był oświecił dawno temu :)

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


But not in the SS? That's what it all was about.


*sigh* Right. Polish citizen. Citizen of Poland. Not a Pole. Not Jewish Pole, which is an oxymoron. Polish Jew, like Polish Ukrainian, although the latter is seldom used.

'Pole' means a person of Polish nationality. Polish citizen means a person with Polish passport, simply speaking. There were loads of Polish citizens in the pre-war Poland, who weren't Poles, and many of them would've been rather upset if somebody called them that. Some of them fought against Poland, in order to create their own country, where they will be free of Poles. Some of them were murdered in the Holocaust, because they were Jews, not Poles, and this is a widely known and accepted fact. Otherwise Germany would pay head money to Poland now, not to Israel. Israel, a country where initially, and for a long time afterwards, the Knesset members disputed in Yiddish, but when it came to name calling, reverted to the rather more familiar Polish language - yet these people, if called Poles, would laugh their heads off, or maybe they'd sue for slander, as this would be a lie damaging their political career.

a Pole (noun): a person of Polish nationality. Somebody with ancestors of Polish nationality, living Polish culture, speaking Polish language, and feeling himself a Pole.

a Polish (noun): as above. Now more popular in usage.

Polish (adjective): referring to, or pertaining to Poland or Poles. Thus 'Polish Jew' is a citizen of Poland, of Jewish ethnicity and, most probably, a follower of Judaism. Not a Pole, which is of Polish ethnicity by definition, or, exceptionally, has adopted Polishness over a long period of naturalisation, usually stretching over generations, by abandoning his previous culture and national identity. The are usually called Poles of German/Jewish/whatever descendance.

The ambiguity of Polish/Polish is exploited by Harry to falsely claim that Poles did this and that. Sawoniuk et al were Polish citizens, but they were not Poles(*). No Poles fought in the Ghetto Uprising, contrary to what Harry once blurted, they were all Jews. Morel, the criminal camp commander, was a Jew, not a Pole, and not even a 'Jewish Pole' which is a an impossible thing. Polish citizens were drafted to Polish Army regardless of their ethnicity, thus 'Polish ex-serviceman' bears no information of the man's ethnicity, exactly the same as 'born in Poland' doesn't. And so on.

Hope this helps.

(*) That is, there are no valid sources claiming that, and there are quite a lot of sources with strong clues that they were of Belorussian or Ukrainian ethnicity.

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]

So, to resume:

There were no Poles in the 1 SS
There were no Poles in the 12 SS
The information quoted by Harry came from a report by a Soviet propaganda officer, a highly suspicious source, and this is the only source that claims contrary to the above.

Some Poles were recruited in 1944 to the so-called Polnische Wehrmacht, part of which was later transformed to Waffen SS.
Schama 202 was a police formation, not SS nor Hiwi, created by joining 2 Ukrainian formations, and later on recruiting some Poles.

Consequently, this alone is a strong indication that neither Obodzinski nor Sawoniuk were Poles. There are other clues, and there's no source claiming that they were. Except Harry.

There was one Polish camp before the war, which can be referred to as a concentration camp. The few camps after the war were run by the Soviets in the Soviet occupied Poland, so they are as Polish as the Nazi camps during the German occupation. Ergo, there were no 'Polish concentration camps', except according to Harry and some Western media.

Obliged for pointing out errors in my above statements. Not you, Harry, I need somebody sane.


Takes time to find another rag of misinformation, innit. Happy hunting, Harry, you need a goal in life.

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Can't see anything.


Yeah, I was hacking the DNS server at that time. For half a day all London IPs showed as Polish. CIA went all mad, I had to change my name to nott and move two streets away.

FYI, Harry, all the info in Wiki has been inserted by some editor. Some of them, those editors, happened to live in Poland, imagine that..


Only you can't be bothered to show them.


Source: Harry.


Polish is an adjective, Harry boy. Polish vodka is not a Pole. Polish Jew is not a Pole, Josef Frantisek was a Polish serviceman, yet he was a Czech. Basic grammar, Harry. Adjective is not a noun. None of your sources says anything about him being a Pole. Or quote it, instead of trying to abuse the language.


I say Germans never recruited Poles to the SS, nor to Hiwis.


That was interesting, thanks. Now prove me I was lying.

This was not the SS, nor the Hiwis, Harry boy. So the argument is stupid anyway.


Yet another slander. 202 was formed by joining two Ukrainian formations. Harry. And you know the source I got it from.


And another slander.

I said: 'Germans did not recruit Poles to the SS, nor to Hiwis.' Schama 202 was neither SS, nor Hiwis, Harry, easy to check.


And another slander. All based on checkable lies. Admin? :)

UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]


Shouldn't be a problem. Any time I visit Poland there's at least one channel broadcasting it :) Something like Doctor Who in the UK.