News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

21 years is a proper age to execute all citizen's prights.
If a young Polish male can't marry without supervision,
if he can't decide about himself, why he could decide about another's fate.

I wonder why in USA, someone who even can't choose a poison for himself,
can decide about what his government will do to another copatriots.

Right to vote is not about voter's liberty,
it's about limiting liberty of other citizens (or better said subjects).

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


In fact you did shoot. Not with true facts. You shouldn't see it as a merit to give some true evidence. You did shoot because you hadn't even noticed the coincidence between the very fact that Lemberg was predominantly Polish on 1.11.1918 with an argument of self-determination and self-defence of these population.

The map you've produced is no ethnic map at all. Just administrative division with some districts where Ukrainians hadn't majority. Shame to you. There are some maps you could use in support of your claims.


Shame again to you, Nathan. You should go back some more hundred years to Mongols, Avars or Goths.

The fact is that Lwów was in Poland from 1349 to 1772 (423 years). All these changed it's demography and structure so deeply, that only a nuke can change it totally. And later despite of Austrian efforts to germanize the city it was still a vital economic and cultural centre of Polish subjects. Since 21.12.1867 (Dezemberverfassung) Galicia gained autonomy and Lemberg as capital of Galicia exploded with Polish institutions. And it lasted till 28.09.1939 and demographically even to 1946.

So you have 500 hundred years long Polish presence in Lwiw, Lwów, Leopolis, Lemberg. Let's wait to the year 2446 or if you prefer to 2439 and then evaluate as equal hosts there. But I wish you Ukrainians all the best and to win this comparison.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


Yes, you're maybe right. The historic argument as in Czech case was more adequate in the East.


As you already stated in Lemberg there were 60:17 ratio of Poles to Ukrainians. You've shot in your own foot.

And some evidence about ethnic situation of the Cieszyn region you can find on this forum:
polishforums.com/free-translation-42/need-english-translation-birth-baptismal-document-42217/.

You can see from the baptismal certificate attached there what was the language of parish of Karwina now Karvina.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

BB don't be so strong relativist. Only true is interesting according to Józef Mackiewicz, very interesting but not a mainstream historian and journalist. And the true is...

Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus.

You can't stop people from warming over old stories. The only way to disarm these rusty grenades is to show facts. But you're of course right that some facts mean something to one party and not at all to another. Anyway without these old stories Europe would be...

...wouldn't be at all.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


It was well discussed in another thread. And the versions of the history in different idioms are different - yes it's true, so what. English historians ignore EE historians and vice-versa, especially pop-historians.

Serious historians try to write well documented, unbiased reconstructions of facts. But they aren't well paid, because their books are not selling well. So there aren't many of them. And gigantic gap in knowledge on the both sides need more work than few guys can do.

And what is selling well? Simplistic stories with emotional twist, demanding no further knowledge of facts. But who cares? Maybe you, Harry? You pretend you have the best knowledge of history of the Poland. According to your posts your basic knowledge of history is deposited on en.wiki (of course for safety reasons) and family tales.


Wrong question! Why Poles and Ukrainian fight each other - it's an unbiased question.
Austrian playing divide and rule rules supported you in making a coup d'etat in Lemberg on 1.11.1918 - this is how it was seen by local Poles. And next. Next logics of war triumphed.

Genealogy / Some Macedonian, Croatian, Serbian Second Names look Polish! [38]


Rakowski is patronymic from Rak or toponymic from Raki, Rakowo, Rakowa, Rakówka.
There is no slightest fonetical path to draw it from Racowie, sorry.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


So Englishwomen who wrote a book about Englishmen's social behaviour was totally inaccurate. I suspected it. So I thank you. Goodnight and good luck, you bad hard boy. Sorry no kisses

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


Good excuse for an invasion of a country.

If you stop this simplistic accusation-counteraccusation convention you can start to think how it all happened and maybe it will be better understood why both nations simplified facts and drove both countries to ruins so early.

Poles were in 2/3 of area of the Principality of Cieszyn in majority, however they were almost all from lower class, while upper classes were German and middle class and educated workforce Czech. Most of engineers in coal mines for example were of Czech origin. Some of Poles were emigrants from Galicia, and some Czech were emigrants from Bohemia and Moravia.

Poles perceived Czechs as immigrants supported by Germans in taking better job posts and blocking chance to advance for Polish workers. On the other side Czechs considered Poles as even worse immigrants and not educated at all louts. So ethnic division was redoubled by class divisions and alien-own xenophobia.

There were more turmoils in 1918-1920 with clubbers from both sides assaulting prominent activists from another party.

And looking from the Prague it was quite another story. They were granted with a country which had so big German minority that they simply didn't use an ethnic argument in territorial claims. They used a historic one. They were saying Bohemia, Moravia and whole Slezsko were Czech historic territories of the Crown of St. Wenzel.

While Poles wanted to make in Silesia an application of the self-determination (ethnic) rule according to Wilson's declaration. There was no common ground for discussion with so defined prerequisites. And there was a great distrust between both parties to break through the impasse. In the meantime there was blind trust in negotiating abilities in Entente.


Yeah. I do care. I want to see the other's point of view. If only spoken or written about facts and perceptions without insults and epithets.


From where do you know Marek's family so well?
I was told Englishmen never talk about other's money.
You should shame.


I do kindly request for not calling me a liar, please.
It just looks like some battle between en.wiki and pl.wiki.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


If you still be using such an accusations and epithets, nobody will read your posts and the sympathy of readers will go to Harry, even if he's a biased polonophobe and serves factoids instead of facts. So, please, stop!

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


Harry as in most cases (not all however) missed some important facts again. The Polish-Czech conflict was started by Czechs in 23.01.1919 when Poles were engaged in the defense of Lwów, Greater Poland insurrection and in organizing their country.

It was Masaryk who made first ultimatum when he didn't recognize the armistice frontier line between Polish and Czech local national councils made in 5.11.1918 after the collapse of the Austro-Hungary. And it was Czech army which invaded this region and took almost whole of its territory, but they were stopped by Entente and the plebiscite was declared.

However Czech president Masaryk have more time to talk away Entente ministers than Polish one, because Poland was indeed fighting the Bolsheviks in 1920 when the final decision to cease most of disputed area to Czechoslovakia was declared 28.07.1920.

If they did wait to September, it could be another one.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


So you ask kindly for a smack too. ;-)

That's not a matter of ethnicity. I'm a Pole though I'm here to learn how foreigners and Poles from abroad see some things and let them know how I see it; not to evangelize or polonize, and in no case to cure someone's frustrations.

Is it the right place, or I misspelled an URL?

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


Thanks. However one smack isn't enough, as we can see from his immediate next post.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


2010 Polonophobe of the Year Award goes to...

Harry

Standing ovulation please!

History / Adam Mickiewicz. What is his motherland: Poland or Lithuania? [93]


Good point! We should say them it's all from Tusk Donald. They'll stop.

The Lithuanian emancipation started in late 1860s just after the failure of the last Polish rebellion (January Insurgence) in which 3,5 'languages' fought together against Muscovy. They were all Lithuanians but spoke 3 or 4 languages: Polish, Lithuanian, White-Ruthenian and few Yiddish. Lithuanian speakers had simply enough. They started to develop his own national identity. They even resigned from Polish alphabet to write his language and borrowed New-Czech one. Polish society was baffled and counterattacked stating it's a treason against common Homeland. Treason breeds treason and new Lithuanian irredenta started to make public happenings bringing before the tribunal of the Lithuanian people the old traitor Jogaila (king Władysław II Jagiełło).

Language / Polish and Hungarian, how similar? [53]


No sane scientist could say they were speaking Polish dialect. What the ethnologist tried to do was to diminish that very fact and expose other cultural aspects as more important. And some aspects were indeed of Polish or Slovakian origin as the substratum and adstratum of £emko culture.

But there were also some nationalist politicians who wanted to protect £emkos from Ukrainian nationalist propaganda. However what they say, I think, isn't so important scientifically.

2 facts you put together don't fit together. The pretext for expulsion of £emkos was that they give shelter and support to UPA rebels, what wasn't generally true.

It was sad and unjust for £emkos.

Language / Polish and Hungarian, how similar? [53]


There were Hucułs, Bojkos, £emkos and Szlachtowa Ruthenians on the Polish side of Carpatian ridge and Rusnaki on the Hungarian (Slovakian) side.

It was a dialectal continuum from the South-East (more Eastern Slavonic and Rumanian elements) to the West (more Western Slavonic, Hungarian, German elements, while still with East-Slavonic core).

They were always called Rusini/Rusnaki since many of them didn't undergo to Ukrainian national identity. They even preferred to go in closer ties with Moscow and apostate Greek-Orthodox denomination to Moscow Orthodox - only to protect their own way of live.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]

Sorry! Just action-reaction syndrome.

Genealogy / Bachor surname (from around Zapalow) / Nieckarz [9]


Possibly Nieckarz, Neckarz:

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


It's factoid.
- Not 1,600 but 200-300.
- Not all Poles but dozen or so criminals and hooligans which provoked a tumult and terrorize part of citizens. It was easier to agitate them since just week or less the Soviets from secret police (all of Jewish origin) arrested and deported to Białystok prison some locals accused of anti-proletarian and capitalist attitude (where they probably were executed during the chaos just before Nazis got the town).

- Not alone but under auspices of German special commando which initiated such pogroms in Radziłów, Jedwabne and Wąsosz in the no-man's land after Russian troops and secret police withdrew and before German troops officially took over and before any police order was established.

- Not unpunished but ringleader were charged and convicted.

But with all these exceptions - you're perfectly right!

History / The relations: Church and III Reich (Kosciol-NS Niemcy) [16]

I'm not a specialist in this area, so I even won't try to play the wisest.

In Wikipedia I've found:
The existence of Draganović's [Croat Franciscan who created Roman ratline] ratline has been confirmed by a Vatican historian, Fr. Robert Graham: "I've no doubt that Draganović was extremely active in syphoning off his Croatian Ustashe friends." However, Graham insisted that Draganović was not officially sanctioned in this by his superiors: "Just because he's a priest doesn't mean he represents the Vatican. It was his own operation.

I suppose there were some blind eye turning or even unofficial help to escape some figures from the Soviet eye. They knew about the fates of many persons persecuted and falsely accused of Nazi collaboration by Soviets. However I supposed men who - as Draganovic, Hudal - pretended to save only the innocents while providing shelter and escape route for war criminals.

Once again Wiki: The Vatican, which was involved in helping over twelve million refugees and expellees in post-war Europe, was at that point less concerned with the political views of each individual who was participating in the gigantic effort to save millions of people from certain starvation and death. The ratline was possible in the context of the enormity of this task and the resulting general confusion at several levels.

But I'm open to learn more about it.

History / The relations: Church and III Reich (Kosciol-NS Niemcy) [16]


Prove it, please, even slightly.


That's true. Laymen as well as clergymen have their own conscience and political opinions. There were fascist sympathizers, nazi sympathizers, socialism sympathizers, communism sympathizers - and even switching between these mental mistakes. In fact I have no idea how they managed to put it together with Catholicism. But it was their moral problem and intellectual dilemma, not mine.

But to blame the whole organization for some members in minority is a far reaching abuse. Especially when the official statements were unambiguously against that minority. That's my point.

History / The relations: Church and III Reich (Kosciol-NS Niemcy) [16]

So how will it be, Stefanos?
Will you still distribute anticatholic memes and factoids?
Or will you respond or comment to the facts I presented to you in my post?

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


American have an irritating habit to admonish other nations. Want you to be a World Teacher as you have some troubles with being World Policeman? I'm afraid you need to work on this.

Genealogy / Are there other ways of finding records that exist further back than 1826? [22]

Have you tried with Archwium Główne Akt Dawnych (General Archives of Old Records)?: agad.archiwa.gov.pl

There are some information about parish files form different bishoprics secured in AGAD: agad.archiwa.gov.pl/metodyka/akta_parafii.pdf

And by the way your family name is good noble name, have you tried with any heraldry book?

History / Books on the Partitions of Poland? [5]


Beware with details from Davies - he's missing and outing some balls in his Playground.

History / Books on the Partitions of Poland? [5]


You can start with:
- Robert Howard Lord's The second partition of Poland: a study in diplomatic, 1915 - I know it, it's good indeed but some remarks on the first partition I disagree.

- Herbert H. Kaplan's The first partition of Poland, 1962 - I haven't read it yet.
- Baron George Shaw-Lefevre Eversley's The partitions of Poland, 1915 - some way old
- Jerzy Lukowski's The partitions of Poland: 1772, 1793, 1795, 1999 - not read

... and then maybe something in Polish.

or feel free to ask for some details here.

History / The relations: Church and III Reich (Kosciol-NS Niemcy) [16]


The very old RED tune. Boring. Facts please, not factoids. I found a novel from the Stalin times - very long (1000 pages or so) and the language that defends this 'piece of art' from being read. However there were some illustrations: guys in Nazi caps with hakenkreuz shaking hands with ugly mugs in cardinal's hat and patting big fat cigar smoking capitalist, and another with bishop having blood on his hands. Wow, thriller.

Pope never supported Hitler. If you found some facts denying it, please be specific and share with us and don't disseminate memes. If he was very cautious in open attacking Nazis it was to protect laymen from regressive measures. However:

- in 1934 in the Christmas Eve sermon Pope condemned Nazi,
- in 1935 after Nuremberg statutes were imposed Vatican Radio broadcast a plea to pray for persecuted Jews.
- the Pope's encyclical "Mit brennender sorge" read in 11500 parishes in Germany - Goebbels in response noted in his diary "Now priest must learn our order and tenacity".

- 1938 during meeting with pilgrims from Belgium Pope said: "Antisemitism is unacceptable, we are all Semites spiritually".
- in 1938 cardinal Initzer of Vienna said something positive about Nazis and he was immediately forced to correct it publicly.
- in January 1940 Pope made an instruction for Vatican Radio to show horrible excesses of uncivilized tyranny against Jews and Poles . "Jewish Advocate" - newspaper of Boston wrote about this broadcast as an open condemnation of German crimes made by Nazis in Poland stating that they were insulting moral conscience of the mankind.

The fact is that Catholic clergymen and Catholic laymen saved more Jews than any other institution, organization or state. And the clergyman paid the price. Thousands were imprisoned even archbishops and bishops, many died - 20% of Polish clergymen were executed or killed in Konzentrationlagers (in some Western Polish bishoprics more than 50%) and Polish bishops Kozal & Goral died in KZ.

History / Life magazine 1.09.39 and sattelite pictures? [3]

Wonderful piece, indeed. Thanks TIT.

It's cartographers work, of course. I've seen this kind of shading the mountains from 30s and you can find some similarity in Austro-Hungarian crosshatching the mountains. But you're right it's excellent artistic quality.

But look! How fascinating it is - even Life guys didn't believe that drole de guerre is possible and the Western front will be the most peaceful place on earth till the spring 1940.

All these bombings expected and never made.

History / Is Jozef Pilsudski the king of modern Poles? [138]


Yes, unfortunately, there is no direct evidence. There are only clues and hints: one letter mentioning French refusal of "something", some trails of German counteractions, some memoirs, changing foreign minister from pacifist one to more devoted one, the Ensign Incident in Gdańsk...

Dariusz Baliszewski wrote about it


What does that have to do with anything?
The hypothesis about preventive action is quite plausible. And if you treat seriously diplomacy language it was at least to fly a kite if France wish to stop German remilitarization. The answer was negative and immediately after that new FM Beck started the equal distance policy with Germany and Soviets.

It's not a Michael Moore post-modernistic rubbish goulash or red-green gobbledygook on Man Made Great Global Warming.

Polonia / POLISH People IN SPAIN ....... [12]


Erasmus - they refinance your accommodation.
Technical University of Gdansk has exchange programs with Barcelona (beware Catalan), Madrid, Alcala de Henares, Murcia, Granada