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Posts by Nathan  

Joined: 13 Feb 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 24 Aug 2014
Threads: Total: 18 / In This Archive: 14
Posts: Total: 1349 / In This Archive: 623
From: Lviv, Ukraine/Toronto, Canada
Speaks Polish?: yes
Interests: languages

Displayed posts: 637 / page 19 of 22
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Nathan   
10 Mar 2010
History / The Gustloff - one of the worst maritime disasters that seemed to never have happened [66]

It was painted in German naval grey , and had two anti aircraft guns fitted to the upper decks....

I bet that in 1945 and at weather conditions recorded, the Soviets saw neither grey color, nor anti-aircraft guns. They just deliberately sunk the ship without verifying its purpose.

On the bitter cold night of January 30th, 1945, the former KdF Cruise Liner Wilhelm Gustloff ... left from the Baltic port of Gotenhafen

When the Gustloff left the relative protection of the harbor at Gotenhafen on January 30th, 1945, the weather was very poor; wind strength of 7, it was snowing, the temperature was 10 degrees below zero, and ice flows were in the water

.

i doubt if it would have stopped him launching torpedoes at the ship anyway....

Taking into consideration of all mentioned rapes and the general comportment of the Red Army, where everything was condoned, sinking a passanger ship was no doubt the state's policy as well.

Thank you for posting about ship Gustloff - I have never heard of this before.
Nathan   
9 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

interfere with religion, ignore Ukrainian language?

Eventually, a hundred ninety Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another one hundred fifty were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.[7]

"legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".[5]
Eventually Polish government proceeded to suppress the Ukrainian language, cultureand religion.

The Poles suppressed the Ukrainian educational system, reducing the number of Ukrainian-language schools from 440 to 8. Higher education became unattainable for Ukrainians in Poland. In the middle schools in Volhynia only 344 (14%) Ukrainians were enrolled in comparison to 2599 Poles (1938). Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to continue through to tertiary studies, only 3 were accepted in 1938-1939.[12] Ukrainians were openly discriminated against in the education system. In the 1936/37 academic year only 344 Ukrainians (13.3%)in comparison to 2599 Poles were enrolled in middle school. In the 1938/9 academic year only 6 Ukrainians were accepted for tertiary education[13]. Eventually, many Ukrainians were forced to seek education in institutions outside the country

Quite an interference and ignoring... You learnt nothing.

though the leaders of the time thought it a good stratagem in the Russian conflict

So they just thought that by destroying 190 Ukrainian churches and converting 150 into Roman Catholic was a good stratagem. Can you exactly point out the thought-process behind this statement with trying to erase everything Ukrainian in the background?

So: don't exaggerate by saying that Poles were oppressors which is proven by slaying Poles. German Nazis proved that Poles were slaves by slaying Poles. We were and are neither of those things.

You are confused, Krysia. How by slaying someone you can prove he/she is a slave? ;) It may prove the other way around, actually.

What I told you in November: at the time you were gaining a national Conscience, where you thought about yourselves as Ukrainians, instead as 'from here'

Who was gaining National Conscience in November? Ukrainians were defending their right to have FAIR ELECTIONS, which were rigged in 2004 big time. Does defense of rights immediately mean National Conscience? Did French women, which basically started the French Revolution in 1789, want to make a national conscience check? Or, maybe, they had nothing to feed their kids with that made them go to Paris?! They knew who they are, even if commonality was based on language, same place of residence and just seeing each other often on a neighboring church bench. It wasn't of any importance to them let the world know who they are. They were wronged by the king. The same pertains to many revolutions that occur nowadays. If Ukrainians didn't have a national identity, there won't be so much blood and bones in Ukrainian land.

This was a defining experience for a lot of people.

It was a sign that we don't sleep :)

And that's fine, this is not a peaceful land, there had been wars before.

Well, it definitely is not a land where you can simply come and put your ars* on somebody's head without finding your ars* ripped apart. For other people, who want to live in peace and mutual respect, Ukraine is a welcoming country.

There is also the thing of Soviet regime, you were on the red side, and some red officials in Poland post war were Ukrainian criminals, as well as Jewish criminals. We were ruled by murderers

Would you, please, give me the names of Ukrainian criminals as officials in after-war Poland? Thank you.

I hope you welcome my money.

Yes, money ;)
Nathan   
6 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

I said that Poles and Ukrainians were both victims and perpetrators, but that's not enough for you.

Wow, this is the first time I am hearing it from you. I hope we can hold to your words and I absolutely agree to them.

Truly, it is not a conflict. We have good and friendly relations with Ukraine and the hatchet has been buried.

I am glad to hear that. But UPA will remain for Ukrainians always the army that fought for our independance. Along the way there might have been wrongdoings against Poles, but this was a war and your government as I quoted in so many posts just made everything possible to make it happen. Major forces that UPA fought were NKWD and Nazis, not Poles. So by trying to keep Ukraine shut about her army and its heros won't lead to any fruitful resolutions. It is equal to saying: "you didn't defend your land against Nazis and NKWD and you didn't have an army, because Poles in Wolyn were killed by UPA or Ukrainian peasants". Personally, I am open to talks and I wish both nations could come up and forgive each other for the wrongdoings and let everyone have his heros and holidays. But if you continue your manner of conducting business where everything has to follow your ideas and imagination, nothing positive will result. I hope relations and their reasons, which our nations had to go through in Cossack era and 1918-1945 period won't be repeated ever in the future.
Nathan   
6 Mar 2010
Language / What are some loanwords in the Polish language? [24]

although I'm afraid Ukrainian wasn't considered a separate language

I am going to take away your fears, Kszysiek ;)

Ukrainian culture and language flourished in the sixteenth and first half of the seventeenth century

The Peresopnytsia Gospels, dating from the 16th century, is one of the most intricate surviving East Slavic manuscripts. It was made between August 15, 1556 and August 29, 1561, at the Monastery of the Holy Trinity in Dvirtsi, and the Monastery of the Mother of God in Peresopnytsia, Volyn'.
The Peresopnytsya Gospels are the most well-known translations of canonical texts into the Old...

worldaccesstrans.com/ukrainian.php

This is the Gospels, on which Ukrainian presidents swear before becoming presidents.
Nathan   
6 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

The lists of professors were prepared for Nazis by Ukrainian students.

;) What else?! Nazis knew who was a Jew and who not and they needed specifically Ukrainian students to give them a list of Polish professors of L'viv university? Wow, I didn't know that Ukrainian student had access to secret files with the names of the teachers ;)

Real or imagined wrongs by Poles could have played a role in mobilizing/agitating local population.

It was all imagination. They just woke up and said:"Let us imagine wrongdoings". I like it ;)

Read the article you quote so many times once again, you interpret it freely.

Eventually, 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another 150 were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.[7] In the meantime, the land reform designed to favour the Poles[8] brought further alienation of the Ukrainian population.[3]

increase of Polish nationalism encouraged by Roman Dmowski's political adherents. Eventually the government proceeded to SUPPRESS the Ukrainian language, culture and religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

<br />THIS IS MY FREE INTERPRETATION

A large number of Polish colonists were encouraged by the Polish government to resettle in Volhynia. This number was estimated at 300,000 in both Galiciaand Volhynia by Ukrainian sources and less than 100,000 by Polish sources (see osadnik) [11] Although the majority of the local population was Ukrainian, virtually all government official positions were assigned to Poles.

The Poles suppressed the Ukrainian educational system, reducing the number of Ukrainian-language schools from 440 to 8. Higher education became unattainable for Ukrainians in Poland. In the middle schools in Volhynia only 344 (14%) Ukrainians were enrolled in comparison to 2599 Poles (1938)(IN THE REGION WHERE UKRAINIANS WERE MAJORITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to continue through to tertiary studies, only 3 were accepted in 1938-1939.[12] Ukrainians were openly discriminated against in the education system. In the 1938/9 academic year only 6 Ukrainians were accepted for tertiary education[13]. Eventually, many Ukrainians were forced to seek education in institutions outside the country such as the Ukrainian Free University in Czechoslovakia, the Drahomanov Pedagogical College as well as at other education establishments there.

So these kids had to leave their home and go study in Czechoslovakia, while fat Polish asses stayed in Ukraine and enjoyed education. But when Ukrainian nationalists in Galicia wished the Poles to get the hell out of their lands, it is A "BIG DEAL", "NAZI COLLABORATORS".

In 1938-1939 a number of Ukrainian libraries and reading rooms were burned by Polish mobs of misguided patriotic youth who often went unpunished by the Polish police forces[7]. Polish youths were organized into armed, local paramilitary strzelcy groups and terrorized the Ukrainian population under the pretext of maintaining law and order.

Metropolitan Sheptytsky's prestige was enhanced in 1938 when he condemned the Polish government's persecution of Orthodox believers and destruction of Orthodox churches in the Kholm region and Volhynia.

Sheptytsky's political influence among Galician Ukrainians was greatly enhanced by his activities during the struggle for Ukrainian independence and after. He maintained good relations with a variety of political leaders and organizations, particularly the influential Ukrainian National Democratic Alliance, and he spoke out against the Pacification campaign in 1930 and interceded with the Polish government both directly and through the Vatican. He also did much to reinforce the Ukrainian character of his church (although this caused a negative reaction from the Polish Roman Catholic church) and to strengthen its ties to the laity.

Take anyone on this forum that is impartial to either side, let him/her read my post and say whether I interpret it freely. You behaved like BARBARIANS in Ukraine, WILD, INHUMANE BARBARIANS. If you think that after all that you did, people felt like kissing you and packing suitcases for your departure with some sandwiches on the road, you are deeply mistaken.
Nathan   
4 Mar 2010
Life / Polish stereotypes of other nationalities!? [472]

No more crossing borders Bicycle tours!! :p

What about Tanks tours? ;)

Wow, nothing like an ancient stereotype to sour relations ;)

These relations go well with Pan Tadeusz or Tequila ;)
Nathan   
4 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

All my calm weakens even more, when I see a writing sprayed on 12.05.2009 on the memorial plate

Does it have a signature by a Ukrainian? It definately could have been some crazy Ukrainian, but also it could have been some cunning Pole who tries to stir the emotions or even Russian who is more than ready to put our nations against each other. Why wasn't it erased? Let's assume one Ukrainian did it. Why do you keep it? To show your children how bad we are just on the basis of this painting done not known by whom and keep the circle going forever till the "appropriate" times, God forbid, come up?

Aphro, no one wants to change anything in Ukrainian identity.

Who says you want - we talk about history where Poland and Russia wanted and now both cry. It is like the reversal of the roles: one who has to demand an appology has to cuddle `poor`victims of own brutality ;)

All my calm weakens

You either lose calm or have sand in an eye. Relax, because millions on this side may say the same. Don't make a theater here.

But he did that using criminal methods, alied with criminals

What criminals? Allies of Soviets or Allies of the Europe who were cutting land to the left and to the right. Yes, Bandera said: "Ukraine for Ukrainians". What would you have said: "Ukraine for Ukrainians who live here, for Poles which burnt all our churches, imprisoned our wives, closed our schools, forbid our language, took our jobs, and terrorize us on a daily basis, for Russians who..." should I continue? If he said that, who would ever listen to him, except Poles and Russians, who would eventually shot him down after being used like a rug. Poland never said ``Poland for Poles`` (at least to my knowledge), but it destroyed Ukrainian community to the level of total poverty and inexistence. Why do you pathetically apply notions of appropriate expression in speech we use nowadays to days of WW2 when flowers didn`t bloom and etiquette was not in fashion. Jews were serving in UPA, so don`t use other nations when you don`t have enough arguments to your own cause.

Bandera collaborated with notorious Ante Pavelic in early 30s.

I know Bandera was an active kid for his age, but at the early 30s, he was 21-24 years of age. Ante Pavelic was 41-44 years old, who formed Croatian nationalist party two years before. Hm... I wish I knew your source about ``collaboration``
Nathan   
4 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

I just meant

Thanks, Seanus. The only thing I basically wanted to say is that everyone understood that diplomacy doesn't work. History in itself between the two nations proves that no matter what you do, you will be treated like dirt and you have no place unless you give up your language, religion, culture,...Stupid Ukrainians had a hope the next 20 years between 1920 and 1940 that Polish government will just leave them alone to profess their faith and speak their language, or even to go on Sunday to a church to pray in a native language. Nope, Poles won't let. You couldn't go to a library - burnt, churches - burnt, Ukrainian schools - closed, universities - for Poles only, national spirit - terrorist against Polish state and Bereza Kartuska concentration camp, official jobs - Poles only, walk on the streets - nope, Polish youth with guns will tell you where is your place, publishing houses - most of them closed, land - given away to 100,000 Polish osadniks, who were families of Polish veterans. And amid all of that Nazis came with the Soviets and ravaged houses, murdered families, destroyed land, ran over with tanks and either took as a forced labor to Germany or to Siberia or simply shot at the spot. After all that what would you do? Write a letter to Polish government to contest the wrong-doings of your newly-arrived neighbors or ask to resurrect the church from ashes? Some just kept suffering keeping their mouth shut. The others especially those who lost somebody in the war either to Poles, Nazis or Soviets - it didn't matter anymore - took pitchforks (because they even hadn't guns like Polish youths groups) and paid the hommage. Many are surprised here about brutality etc., I think you don't and I am not either. I am not asking Poles to apologize, what happened happened and we are not the ones who lived at these times. But I am not going to apologize either and listen to offenses against Ukrainian UPA and its heros just because Poles don't like it or feel unjust some of the actions undertaken. Let's learn on our mistakes now, so they are not done in the future.
Nathan   
4 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

Doesn't seem like Ukrainian language and culture were forbidden.

Eventually, 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another 150 were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.[7] In the meantime, the land reform designed to favour the Poles[8] brought further alienation of the Ukrainian population.[3]

increase ofPolish nationalism encouraged by Roman Dmowski'spolitical adherents. Eventually the government proceeded to suppress the Ukrainian language, culture and religion.

A large number of Polish colonists were encouraged by the Polish government to resettle in Volhynia. This number was estimated at 300,000 in both Galicia and Volhynia by Ukrainian sources and less than 100,000 by Polish sources (see osadnik) [11] Although the majority of the local population was Ukrainian, virtually all government official positions were assigned to Poles.

groups.yahoo/neo/groups/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/conversations/messages/25487

Too much love will kill you. Rest in peace, brother.

Józewski, who actively supported Ukrainian national cultural and religious development lost his post in 1938, and his programme was cancelled.

Henryk Jozewski was born August 6, 1892, in Kijiv, Ukraine

Dmytro Kliaczkiwśkij 'Kłym Sawur'

Dmytro Klyachkivsky, UPA commander's

He was, according to one source, responsible for ethnic cleansing of Poles from Volhynia.[1]

Just asingle source, which (what a surprise!), nevertheless, recognizes 16-60 years of age males and no kids and old people or women, pregnant or not, like many Poles like to quack about in front of Europe to make their pathetic case. Please, read the above, so I don't have to post it again. You want my answer for previous posts - sure, just as soon as I receive the explanation for the tied kids.

From 1150 villages and colonies with 31.000 Polish farms Ukrainians under UPA totally destroyed 1048 settlements with 26 167 farms. From 252 churches and chapels 103 were burned down.

Deja-vu, anyone?;)

Weren't Melnyk and Bulba also fighting for Ukrainian independence?

They did fight. So what is your point? Don't tell me that you believe in the final result of their efforts ;)

Poland as a state is a 20th century invention

Yep.

I'll get back to you

I will be here.
Nathan   
3 Mar 2010
Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]

OK. Nathan, I've read this essay by Venclova. But still didn't understand why you can consider Mickiewicz so mediocre personality.

Oh, don't worry: he has no clue either.

If I hadn't a clue, I wouldn't have said it. But I have to agree that my words were too harsh in my statements about Mickiewich. Frankly, I was disappointed by the way he considered Lithuanian language and culture as something of the past that has no power to develop and grow. There were other Lithuanian intellectuals at the time, who refused to let their culture sink into oblivion and wrote exclusively in their native language. But it was his choice and I can't judge him. It seems he had so much more deeper he couldn't openly say because of the censure. So, I take back my rude expressions on Adam Mickiewich and hope he will pardon my profanity. Peace, bros.
Nathan   
3 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

Polish participants of the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 in their testimonies and memoirs often incorrectly refer to 'Ukrainians' or the 'Vlasov Army' as the German collaborating forces who were guilty of pillage, rapes, and murders committed against the Warsaw civilians. However, in most cases the reference is to 1,700 soldiers of the Waffen-SS Brigade RONA (Russkaya(not even Soviet!) Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armiya), a Russian collaborating force headed by Waffen Brigadeführer Bronislaw Kaminski

(as well as this there were SS affiliated cossack units in Warsaw).

In addition to RONA, German forces included some units formed with volunteers and ex-POWs from various Soviet Union ethnic groups: e.g. Cossacks, Kalmucks, and Azerbaijanis (Bergmann Battalion).

Towards the end of the 15th century, Zaporozhian Cossacks had established a Cossack host in the "wild field" of Ukraine around the Dnieper River. In the 16th century, the Don Cossacks established another cossack host in the Don River basin. Other Cossack hosts were established later in the Southern Urals, Siberia and Caucasus.

Zaporozozhian Cossacks were Ukrainians, the rest Cossack groups that were formed later in different times in occupied by Russia regions were completely different case. Since 1775 when Russians destroyed the Zaporozhian Sich, Ukrainian Cossacks renew their existance only after the fall of the Soviet Union. Again regarding the "Cossacks" you are talking about:

The Cossack National Movement of Liberation was set in the hope of creating an independent Cossack state, Cossackia. It was not until 1943 that the 1st Cossack Division was formed under the command of General Helmuth von Pannwitz, where Cossack emigrees, like Andrei Shkuro and Pyotr Krasnov, took leading positions. The 2nd Cossack Division under the command of Colonel Hans-Joachim von Schultz, formed in 1944, existed only for a year, as both Cossack divisions were transferred into the Waffen-SS and merged into the XVth SS Cossack Cavalry Corps in 1945. The Corps contained regiments of different Cossack groups: Don, Kuban, Terek and Siberian Cossacks.

So do not equalize Ukrainians to the Cossacks you are talking about.

Interesting article in today's press

Good article, Trevek, thanks. I haven't read W. Lotnik, but I definately check it out.

wow!!! my grandmother had lived near Stanisławów until she had to escape from there ...

Wow!
Nathan   
3 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

Apparently, when there was a split in ancient history, it was over interpretation of one sentence. I can't quote out of memory. Now the churches found out that they actually MEAN the same interpretations. No split should have even been.

Relations between East and West had long been embittered by political and ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes.[2]

Hardly looks like a single sentence, which you have difficulty with recalling ;) Does that sentence of yours was the reason of burning 190 churches in Ukraine?

Tough questions. Do we get Russified or do Ukrainians get Polonized?

You put these questions very often in your history and got burnt. I hope you finally learnt something. (I am kidding, I will never ever believe in that, because you won't :)

Hopefully into their own, if they can have it.

;) No comment on that one.

nationalism Bandera proclaimed was the worst on could think of

He openly proclaimed "Ukraine is for Ukrainians only"

Wow, what a traspass! It is really the worst he could have said ;) I am happy neither Russians, nor Polish did anything when they eliminated millions without saying these words on their own behalf.

And now you express the admiration by his deeds...

I am surprised about all the Polish and Russian hatred Stepan Bandera evokes. A bit of history on him, which many of you even don't know:

He was imprisoned:
1934-1939 - Polish Concentration Camp in Bereza Kartuska (he was 25 years of age when arrested)
1941-1944 - Nazi Concentration Camp in Sachsenhausen for proclaiming independance.
In 1942 before even Ukrainian Insurgent Army was formed, Polish inmates murdered his two brothers Vasyl' and Oleksander.
His brother Bohdan was killed by NKWD in 1944.
His father Andrij Bandera sentenced to death in 1941 in Kijiv.
His mother and sister sent to Siberia into Soviet Concentration Camp; both were forbidden ever to return to Ukraine.
Stepan Bandera was shot in 1959 by NKWD agent in Munich.
He lost everything just because he loved his country.
And yes, I admire him - he is more than worth it. He was more a political leader, who had great organizational skills, but not on the battlefield. Some said that he is our only hero ;) No, he is not. We have Roman Shukhevych, Lev Rebet, Taras Borovetz, Dmytro Klyachkiwskij, etc...These were fearless fighters, who all died for my freedom, not mentioning all the regular soldiers.

weird...

Weird is the fact that those who occupied my country let off snots of their noses and cry like pus*ies. Yes, this is very weird...

You've forgotten of course Uniate Church which probably saved Ukrainians from being totally russified.

Ukrainian Catholic Church, which you call Uniate, has so little to do with Roman Catholic Church. Basically, besides recognizing a pope as a head of the Church, it is identical to the Orthodox Church. All the rites and the look of the churches inside is done in a marvelous Orthodox style. It played a major role in keeping Ukrainian spirit, traditions and language, not because it was Catholic, but exactly because it was Orthodox, different from Polish churches. That was the reason Poles burnt 190 churches in Wolyn (later they waited for love there;) and converted the rest into Roman Catholic. We live in times when religion seems something unimportant and faith is laughed at, but no, it is something that keeps us united, separate, unique...
Nathan   
2 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

He will always remain a symbol of somebody who wanted Ukraine to be free.

Good point, aphrodisiac.

No.

Jola, you even have no idea about who fought who, mixing 14th Galicia division with UPA.

'detailed' explanation

Who cares? I am not interested in throwing peas into the wall anymore I can quote the whole encyclopedia and you still cry. I wish I could sing you a lulliby ;)

This is sth Catholics don't get.When sb tries to impose catholicism on orthodox folks it drives them mad for some reason I may not be able to explain.It is looked as a violation of national identity as an effort to change to sth worse.
Poles learned that from Ukrainians,Italians from Greeks and Croats from Serbs the harsh way.

Yep.

it was about WW2 when Ukrainian auxilliaries were let lose by the Nazis onto the Poles, such as during the Warsaw Uprising

14th Waffen Grenadier Division made of Ukrainian volunteers fought EXCLUSIVELY Soviet army. UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought Nazis, NKWD and Polish AK and Armija Ludowa. Those who collaborated with the above-mentioned forced to prevent fight of Ukrainians for independance were considered enemies and rightfully so. There was nothing you call ``let lose``on Poles. If you take a look on Polish-Ukrainian relations in the past 400 years you will understand that Nazi were not necessary here.
Nathan   
2 Mar 2010
Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]

You simply don't want to accept that 'barbarian' Polish culture/identity was attractive enough to be preferred over others ;)

No, I completely understand preferences. But when you prefer some other "culture", totally downgrading your own and naming it primitive and other elevated, then you are nothing more than a cheap sell-out. And I don't care who he was: Ukrainian, Polish or Lithuanian. He was a scum as a person, even though he is considered a marvelous writer. (Though for me he even isn't anything to be excited as a poet either).
Nathan   
2 Mar 2010
History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

You are correct, Mr Grunwald. War is a war and different things happened on both sides. UPA fought mostly Soviet NKWD and Germans, not Poles. It is a known fact that NKWD committed many atrocities on Poles in Wolyn' dressing themselves as Ukrainian soldiers to weaken Ukrainian resistance movement. Of course, there were Ukrainians, mostly regular people from countryside who had Poles deep in their livers, taking Pacification, Polonization, Sanation, Bereza Kartuska concentration camp (4500 Ukrainians imprisoned in 1939, 387 died, women and children as well) and strzelcy groups ravaging the villages in 1930s. Poles burnt Ukrainian churches and libraries, forbid usage of native language,... Are you surprised that there were people ready to put someone on a pitchfork when Germans, Russians were ripping apart country and Poles were mentioning the "happy" pre-war paradise coming true as soon as the war is over? Photos some mention here with 3 kids tied with a barbed wire was long ago proved to be done by a gypsy mother on her own kids - nothing to do with Ukrainians. Some try to blow things out of proportion.

They realised that people in their villages held it against them not to speak Ukrainian.

Krysia, nobody held Poles against their language. Look at the policy of your country in pre-war period and what it did with Ukrainian language. Also osadniki - Polish soldiers veterans were settled in Wolyn' in 1930s with their families on lands taken away from Ukrainian landowners. Guess what happened to Ukrainian churches in Wolyn:

Any accusation was strong enough for a particular church to be confiscated and handed over to the Roman Catholic church. The goal of the two so called "revindication campaigns" was to deprive the Orthodox of those churches that had been Greek Catholic before Orthodoxy was imposed by the tsarist Russian government.[1][2] 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed (some of the destroyed churches were abandoned[3] and 150 more were forcibly transformed into Roman Catholic (not Greek Catholic) churches.[4]

The attitude of Ukrainians of that time is well shown in the statements by Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, who noted negative influence of Polish policies on the Ukrainian culture: "the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".[7]

But I have this sand in my eye

It seems like in Poland you have a lot of deserts, many Poles have sand in their eyes. It is time to take it out like Ukrainians did long ago.

I'd like to see something positive. Ideas, Nathan? (POSITIVE)

Krysia, as far as I see there are pretty healthy relations between our countries. There are also some historical feuds, though. Poles are not happy with Stepan Bandera and UPA. I am not happy with Pilsudski, Dmowski, Polish terror in 1920-30s. So? Wouldn't it be better to watch in our own backyards instead. It is difficult to say too much POSITIVE after you Krysia falsely accused Ukrainians in tying children with barbed wires. Reconciliation starts with understanding, if this is what you are looking for. Without frankly looking into the mirror and objectively analyzing oneself, there is nothing that can change this retarded hatred that still is alive. I am all for normal life like, no doubt, you are and many others.

Tell me, Krysia, what you see that has to be done to make it better.

they look to her like a blood-thirsty Ukrainian.

I am one of them. When I see a Pole, I look on his (preferably her;) neck, pulsating artery full of sweet Polish blood and just wait the sunset. Hmm...Delicious..

So, Polish people visiting Ukraine are well received now?

Nope, they are eaten alive as soon as they cross the border.

I suspected Nathan to be one or at last a son of someone from Bandera bunch!

I wish I was. It would be a great honor.

I don't hate him

I knew you love me :)
Nathan   
1 Mar 2010
Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]

We've been talking about a poet, weren't we?

Wow, Darius. I do not criticize his literary achievements.

This is post #96. So no, I was talking about his political view, not poetry, even though I did say that it was a bit too soapy. Pardon my audacity ;)

In the course of this relationship, the cultural impact of the union was such that the educated elite of the more primitive partner abandoned its native language and became culturally subsumed into the donor society, in some way enriching the donor's culture as well.

Exactly what I meant, thank, Poki ;) Such an "elite" is a bunch of mediocre mfs.

Looks like polish chauvinism ;)

Looks like? ;)
Nathan   
1 Mar 2010
Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]

I have seen you express political views here on PF. It would follow then that you consider yourself mediocre.

I re-read your question and I see why we misunderstood each other. I meant to say that there are political views which I consider mediocre and as a consequence a person who supports them. Having an opinion, a political one, has nothing wrong with it.

Which roots did Mickiewicz shuffle aside?

There is an article, which might explain the reasons I consider him a mediocre personality, though it has nothing to do with his literary works.
Nathan   
1 Mar 2010
UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

Come and see for yourself.

Thanks for invitation, Torq. Someday I definitely will :)

And Nazi Nathan which is or was a polish citizen is two faced communist secret police member.

You blew my undercover, damn! ;)
Nathan   
28 Feb 2010
History / Adam Mickiewicz. What is his motherland: Poland or Lithuania? [93]

For me - yes (have no idea and, frankly, don't care where others apply mediocrity to, paintings?). Sell-outs for something perceived as "superior" and shuffling aside one's roots and folks are by me mediocre personalities, talking about which wastes my time.
Nathan   
28 Feb 2010
UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

You shouldn't see it as a merit to give some true evidence

Where did I boast my objectivism?

The map you've produced is no ethnic map at all.

the eastern part of Galicia included the heartland of the historic territory of Galicia-Volhynia and had a Ukrainian majority [2]. In the latter territory, Ukrainians made up approximately 65% of the Population while Poles made up only 22% of the population.[3] Of the 44 administrative divisions of Austrian eastern Galicia, Lviv was the only one in which Poles made up a majority of the population.[4] In Lviv, the population in 1910 was approximately 60% Polish and 17% Ukrainian.

Look at the map, find Eastern Galicia and read the note I re-submit for you again.

Galicia exploded with Polish institutions. And it lasted till 28.09.1939 and demographically even to 1946.

Its major explosion occurred in 1920-1939 during conducted by Polish government policies of Pacification, Polonization and Sanacija, closing Ukrainian schools and publishing houses, burning churches, preventing Ukrainians to study in L'viv. Most of Ukrainian youth went to Prague for studies. This is how you exploded. Why didn't you explode after the war? Karma?!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia_(1930)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

Let's wait

Are you in your mind? Do you count German cities' of Danzig, Posen, Breslau,...lifespan too to rub their noses with? ;)

People also in Lvov look very much like polish in Krakow.

How was it possible?!! I thought that they had horns and neighed when you talk to them.

Good observation sense, Exiled.

Wow, it was good observation. I hope his head didn't explode from such a demanding mental work ;)

I always knew it and even you as a greek can see it!

He's Greek? Did you notice any STRIKING similarities between Macedonians, Albanians, Turks and Greeks? How is your good observation? Did you find any manes or tails on any of those? ;)

I hope you're taking good care of Lwów.

Thanks for asking. Yes, we take care of our cities. I hope you take care of Перемишель and Холм as well.
Nathan   
28 Feb 2010
UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

As you already stated in Lemberg there were 60:17 ratio of Poles to Ukrainians. You've shot in your own foot.

I didn't. I am trying to be objective and don't avoid mentioning facts, just because I might not like them. Here is a map showing Eastern Galicia, where Ukrainians were majority in 1910:

Eastern Galicia

As you might notice it goes to Sanok, Lesko, Peremyshel (now Polish Przemysl), Bereziw (now Polish Brzozow), Jaroslaw, etc. These are around 70 km inside Polish current borders. In all these lands Ukrainians were majority. L'viv, which you called Lemberg here, was the only city within Eastern Galicia to have Polish majority. So on the basis of those 60% in one city, you invaded Ukraine and L'viv, which was located 150 km deep from the Eastern Galicia borders? Hm, I think your toes are missing ;)

Regarding historical argument:
Holm (now Polish Chelm)

Volodymyr the Great to build the first stone castle there in 1001. Following the Polish capture of Kiev in 1018 the region was made part of Poland, but returned under Kievan rule in 1031.
In 1235 Danylo Romanovych of Halych granted the town a city charter and moved the capital of his domain there. He also built a new castle atop the hill in 1240 and created an Orthodox bishopric there (now the Basilica of the Birth of the Virgin Mary).

L'viv

Lviv was founded by King Daniel of Galicia, in the Ruthenian principality of Halych-Volhynia, and named in honour of his son, Lev. When Daniel died Lev made Lviv the capital of Galicia-Volhynia.[3] The city is first mentioned in the Halych-Volhynian Chronicle, which dates from 1256. By 1272 Lviv had become the capital of the Halych-Volyn Principality

Even history doesn't give you a smile. Please, don't jump about period of Ukrainian cities occupation - it is an old Polish tactic - it doesn't work ;)
Nathan   
27 Feb 2010
Love / Polish Girls vs Russian Girls [813]

And what about Ukranian girls? some veeerrrryyyy pretty ones there!

Ukrainian Prime-minister Y. Tymoshenko
Nathan   
27 Feb 2010
History / Adam Mickiewicz. What is his motherland: Poland or Lithuania? [93]

Have you read his works? Which parts would you like to quote as so bad? Go ahead, give us some examples. Or are you relying on UPA anti-Polish propaganda in your illustrious literary criticism?

Wow, Darius. I do not criticize his literary achievements. I respect his input into Polish and world literature. I remember back in high school our Ukrainian language and literature teacher was infatuated with Adas' (this is how she called him :) I haven't read his works, unfortunately. I read Sienciewicz, Prus, Raymond, some others and the latter two are my all time favorites. I don't see what Ukrainian Insurgent Army and non-existant anti-Polish propoganda have to do with it. In Ukrainian schools we read works by writers from all over the world and I have never heard about any anti-Polish propaganda, forget about a literary one. This is what you are fed in certain Polish circuits about UPA and our views on literature. I called him mediocre, because of his political views in regards to Lithuania and its language. So chill out.
Nathan   
27 Feb 2010
UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

the Poles who were invited didn't bother to show and Poles have been lying about it ever since

Yep, sorry, I messed up the dates a bit.

"who forgets history is bound to repeat it"...what thoughtless crap

That's true. Seems like we don't forget, we remember it better than our birthday, but still we repeat it because we know it and can't forget it.

Sometimes I doubt the value of history teaching...

We are not taught History, it is often time "local rumors".

Why Poles and Ukrainian fight each other - it's an unbiased question.

The only reason I asked you this question was the fact that in Czechoslovakia you wanted so-called "democratic self-determination", because you made 60% of the population, while in Eastern Galicia, where you presented 22% demographically - you wanted something else, far from "democratic self-determination". So the fact is you suited yourself with whatever reasoning gives you the advantage.

Anyway without these old stories Europe would be...

These are little tubes inserted in European veins to let off some blood, when the systemic pressure is too high ;)