News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Sure it ain't vice-versa, old man? This blame-the-victim stuff's soundin' awful familiar:-) The reprivatisation question is hardly cut and dried. The Communists throughout Eastern Europe initially nationalized what was plundered by the Nazis, much later privatising property bearing at best questionable title.....and now almost seventy-five years after the fact, its original owner want it back. Seem surprising??

As far as TheOther's remarks, it's human nature to want to shift blame from the aggressor to the aggressee. Who wants to fess up to such embarrassing truths as those of the Shoah. So? Point the finger at the other guy; it wasn't the Nazis fault, it was the Jews fault. No, better still. It wasn't even the Germans' fault. No, it was the Innuits. Yeah, that's right, it was those damned Innuits!!!

Typical human defensive logic.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Hmmm, sense a little cynical revisionism afoot here:-)

Then again, it IS a free forum. Lest we confuse freedom of truth with dis-or misinformation!

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

...a declaration of war instigated by German aka Nazi aggression!!!!!

Let's do a little fact checking here, folks , mods et al., before we start bandying about words like "absurd", "flawed" etc., shall we?

:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

As usual, Ironside, I see you misunderstood my post! I'm scarcely apologizing for any totalitarian regime. I'm only saying that the return of Holocaust-era property to either Jews or gentiles has become a sticky point, since it has long since become a matter of passing the buck, i.e. the ruble; the Nazis blamed the Jews, the Communists blamed the (former) Nazis and everyone's finger is pointed at the wrong party instead of turning said finger back towards themselves!! No Nazis, thus, no Holocaust, ergo no Communist Party takevover, hence no issue at all of returning "stolen" property to its rightful owner:-)

That's the matter before us.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

My "rambling" is merely setting the record straight about the facts, that's all, rather than paying lip service to irresponsible, bigoted revisionism!

Even the most cursory glance at the record indicates what happened. If the truth hurts and the record is a broken record, well, TOUGH!!!

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Hitler declared war on Europe, to be sure, on all mankind!!! Know your history? The Nazis marched into the Sudetenland, then into Poland, then into France, Norway, Denmark and the list keeps growing. What were the to-be Allies supposed to do, for pity's sake? Allow Hitler to simply march into their country??!

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

...and others may well have had basis in some merit anyway. One bad apple spoils the (whole) batch, as we say:-)
Szkoda tym uczciwym ludziom!

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Once more, I've really no idea whatsoever. Therefore, it's not even useful for us to speculate at this point.
Do you follow me? Zrozumiałeś?

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Grzegorz, I'd be happy if you didn't have to pay a single bloody złoty! I'm simply quoting what the Claims Conference folks are sayin':-)

Don't shoot the messenger.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Yet, who put the Soviets in the uncompromising position of being enemies of the West in the first place?? Hitler hated the Communists because of the failed 1918 Bavarian Putsch, brought to you by Kurt Eisner,a Jew by the way:-) We both know that. Germans associated Communists with chaos, ergo Jews are Communists, Jews bring chaos and hence must be eliminated from the host body of the German State.

Polish Jews would doubtless have retained much of, if not the entirety of, their pre-War property/holdings etc. were it not for Hitler's "little war"LOL

Just remember "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Der Feind meines Feindes ist mein Freund.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

"Confiscated" here too is not accurate, jon! "Confiscation" can be legal, as can search and seizure. What the Nazis did was neither; it was out and out plundering:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Exactly. That's the basic idea. This refers exclusively to property or goods seized "illegally". In the case of Holocaust-related restitution claims, the problem becomes compounded by the not-so-simple fact that Jews in particular had no legal rights under the Occupation, but where solely "subjects" of the Third Reich.

This point was in particular brought out several times at the Nuremberg Trials, during which it was variously stated that the accused in the docks were indeed NOT breaking the law, but rather carrying out the law which they as German subjects under the leader Adolf Hitler, were duty-sworn to uphold!

:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Don't see where you come up with that figure, Grzegorz! It'd be probably not in excess of eleven million there abouts, when all the smoke has cleared. And that might again NOT be Poland's sole share.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Not being privy unfortunately to the "Jewish Claims Conference" minutes, I honestly couldn't say. A conservative estimate would be at least in the millions, perhaps even one million in dollar amount probably for each of the recorded six-million or so Jewish slaughtered. Before you have heart failure though, this would likely be divvyed up between each of the three countries I mentioned:-) Poland would scarcely be expected to go it alone, now would they?

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Who's "we"? It's a team effort, you know! Poland, Austria, Germany, even little Switzerland, each bear at least part of the brunt.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

And I'm answering seriously! With interest added on, the "bill" as you call it, would be considerably higher.

Look, it's almost the same thing as here in Times Square, where for umpteen years, a billboard has proudly proclaimed our National Debt as well into the trillions:-)

The sooner restitution can be adequately made (and survivors families, both Jewish and gentile, have ceased haggling over a fair redress), the sooner the discussion of paying off the Holocaust can be finally put to rest, we hope.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

You forgot, with interest:-)
lol

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

@Vox,

Read the rest of jon's posts! The facts are in the history itself:-)

@jon,

The burden of proof however, rests almost exlusively on the presence of any supporting, still extant, documentation (if there was any), along with that of the heirs to such property/estate etc.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Jewish properties, owned by citizens of Polish nationality, ought clearly to be returned, at least partially, to their rightful owner(s) and/or their families. As such primogeniture is expecially difficult to prove in the case of Jewish Poles, for instance, this merely draws out the entire process.

Rest assured however, justice will be served.....eventually:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Vox, the roots of European (as opposed, say, to Muslim) anti-semitism date back to the erroneous notion that the Jews murdered Christ, period!

Blaming the Jews for the pogroms, anti-Jewish feeling among the gentile population etc. is rather much like blaming the victim for the attackers' assault. While it may well be true that Jewish pawnbrokers DID act usurously in exacting a higher interest than others, don't forget, the Catholic Church forbade the Jews from any other work other than moneylending. If the Jews were then perceived as the Frankenstein Monster, it has, among others, chiefly the Papacy to blame!!

Jews didn't set out to cheat or defraud. They were solely concerned with survival, pure and simple. While Jews were scarcely "perfect", neither where the Christians....BY A LONG SHOT:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

The "facts" in this case, are simple and beyond dispute (unless your name happens to be Irving and answer to DavidLOL). The Jews had been living throughout much of Central and Eastern Europe for more than one-thousand years, in various states of turmoil, usually instigated by the Church:-)

For the record; the Jews no more "murdered" Christ than I murdered my uncle. The former task fell to the Romans. As far as Jews living during Occupied Europe aroudn the time of WWII, even the kapos would have surely been the victims of mass murder had they not cooperated. None did so voluntarily and it doubtless killed them a hundred times inside to have to stoop so low as to aid and abet the enemy.

Now YOU let it all "sink in"....if it can!!

No answer, Voxie ol' boy? Yeah, well the truth tends to leave us all speechless.Can't honestly say as I blame ya!

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Leave out the triggerman; just send in the Romani aka the Mob to do the jobLOL

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Jews scarcely instigated the mass murder, for that matter, any mass murder, did they???!

Masada was a single defiant act of theirs by throwing the Christians to the lions, ok, we'll give ya that one. Other than that, it all started with the Jews, rather than the Romans, being blamed for the death of Christ.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Pray tell, Undercover, how would you, the Perfect, have most likely acted under identical circumstances, eh? None too well, I'd imagine:-)
So just stop casting the stones of self righteous arrogance!!

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

@Vox,
Kapos and such ilk surely weren't blameless. However, to compare a Jewish-born kapo with an Eicke, Martin Sommer or an Oskar Dirlwanger, murderous, pedophilic thugs and sadists, is irresponsible history, pure and simple! Even YOU should realize that much:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Spot on, jon! To suggest otherwise is only to ignore historical fact:-)

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Well. admittedly an embarrassing number of Jews did participate in collusion in order to simply save their own necks! Noone though can honestly equate Jewish "crimes" committed in order to stay alive with the incomprehensible 'crimes against humanity' perpetrated against the Jews merely for being Jewish:-))

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

G undercover,

The only "atrocities" committed by Jews (en masse) was being Jewish, period! Why? Which ones did you have in mind? Make 'em good, now:-) We're all dyin' to hear the truthLOL

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]

Fact is though that Poles too participated in many of the atrocities which nonetheless occurred in "German occupied" territory, to which Poland at that belonged:-)

Law / Any possibility to stay in Poland - refugee status in Germany denied (I am Muslim) [13]

Do you speak German? If so, your chances might well be greater than if not:-) While visa status can be denied for any number of reasons, target language ability in the language of the country to which you have emigrated can only strengthen your chances!