Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
How about my concession, SSM? (post 223). Agreed?
How about my concession, SSM? (post 223). Agreed?
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
I was using it in argument, For4. I know that Scotland now doesn't accept any such discrimination on public courses.
I was using it in argument, For4. I know that Scotland now doesn't accept any such discrimination on public courses.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
I did in the post above. But it still happens: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6521703.stm
I did in the post above. But it still happens: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6521703.stm
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
For4, women WERE discriminated against for a long time. It's a fact! I remember my dad playing a round with a female colleague and her not being allowed in for a jar. That's discrimination, pure and simple. A man can be a guest and gain entry. A woman must pay for membership. That's the deal!!
I'm talking reality, not hypotheticals.
I wanted to tease out your thoughts first, that's why ;) ;)
For4, women WERE discriminated against for a long time. It's a fact! I remember my dad playing a round with a female colleague and her not being allowed in for a jar. That's discrimination, pure and simple. A man can be a guest and gain entry. A woman must pay for membership. That's the deal!!
I'm talking reality, not hypotheticals.
I wanted to tease out your thoughts first, that's why ;) ;)
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
No, it happens in public/municipal clubs too, SSM. For4, so you are saying that men spend more on refreshments than women? What profits? How does he profit more from men? Remember that most drive to golf courses so likely have a shandy and that's it. You are saying that business is the reason for excluding women? Even the math is hardly on your side here.
I don't support quotas. I've already said it's about the right person for the right job. We agreed long back, SSM. Let's clear this up by me making a concession. I will concede that reverse discrimination is a necessary evil to restore some semblance of parity if you agree that long term equality is more desirable than short term inequality. It's worth going through short term inequality to reach long term equality. Deal??
No, it happens in public/municipal clubs too, SSM. For4, so you are saying that men spend more on refreshments than women? What profits? How does he profit more from men? Remember that most drive to golf courses so likely have a shandy and that's it. You are saying that business is the reason for excluding women? Even the math is hardly on your side here.
I don't support quotas. I've already said it's about the right person for the right job. We agreed long back, SSM. Let's clear this up by me making a concession. I will concede that reverse discrimination is a necessary evil to restore some semblance of parity if you agree that long term equality is more desirable than short term inequality. It's worth going through short term inequality to reach long term equality. Deal??
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
So you are not prepared to take steps towards parity and then normalise it when relative parity has been reached, SSM? I think you ducked that part. I also didn't see your dichotomy between parity and equality. You are clearly in favour of equality but preclude a major player in the form of an elected body that can do sth to get nearer to bringing it about. SSM, doesn't it tell you sth that I'm not a proponent of substantial govt intervention in many areas??
You are tacitly advocating that what I said in the quote, yes. Without any fair reply to the slap, that is exactly what you are advocating through passive default.
It has been called reverse discrimination, yes. Would you prefer temporary/short-term inequality or long-term equality, SSM? That's my real question here!!
For4, let me be very clear. I'm talking about domestic/municipal courses here. Taxpayers have a right to make use of such facilities. It's not the right to play golf but the right to use the clubhouse, For4. Where are your ethics? You can 'gain financially' through selling weapons. Does it make it right? Does it?
So you are not prepared to take steps towards parity and then normalise it when relative parity has been reached, SSM? I think you ducked that part. I also didn't see your dichotomy between parity and equality. You are clearly in favour of equality but preclude a major player in the form of an elected body that can do sth to get nearer to bringing it about. SSM, doesn't it tell you sth that I'm not a proponent of substantial govt intervention in many areas??
You are tacitly advocating that what I said in the quote, yes. Without any fair reply to the slap, that is exactly what you are advocating through passive default.
It has been called reverse discrimination, yes. Would you prefer temporary/short-term inequality or long-term equality, SSM? That's my real question here!!
For4, let me be very clear. I'm talking about domestic/municipal courses here. Taxpayers have a right to make use of such facilities. It's not the right to play golf but the right to use the clubhouse, For4. Where are your ethics? You can 'gain financially' through selling weapons. Does it make it right? Does it?
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
So you are leaving the prospect of discrimination wide open, For4. So you'd leave the option of him shutting the door in the face of men and having a laugh too? Aha, it's about financial gain and not ethical principle, am I right? Even assuming it was, women have money to spend too, you know!? ;) ;) For4, my point is clear. There is typically one clubhouse per golf course and there is no good reason to exclude women. What if a couple had a round together and wanted a shandy after the round? Give me one ethical reason why the woman shouldn't be allowed to have one.
SSM, I slapped nobody in the face at all. I still agree with what you said so please outline, through the quote function, where you see the anomalies in my arguments. I didn't advocate heavy-handedness at all. I said "steering function" and 'facilitating". I read your posts, yes. I even show you how in my replies. I am quite liberal but just take issue with how you feel so comfortable with allowing wrongs to linger like a bad smell in the air. The slap in the face was a good analogy and you know it. Care to refute it??
So you are leaving the prospect of discrimination wide open, For4. So you'd leave the option of him shutting the door in the face of men and having a laugh too? Aha, it's about financial gain and not ethical principle, am I right? Even assuming it was, women have money to spend too, you know!? ;) ;) For4, my point is clear. There is typically one clubhouse per golf course and there is no good reason to exclude women. What if a couple had a round together and wanted a shandy after the round? Give me one ethical reason why the woman shouldn't be allowed to have one.
SSM, I slapped nobody in the face at all. I still agree with what you said so please outline, through the quote function, where you see the anomalies in my arguments. I didn't advocate heavy-handedness at all. I said "steering function" and 'facilitating". I read your posts, yes. I even show you how in my replies. I am quite liberal but just take issue with how you feel so comfortable with allowing wrongs to linger like a bad smell in the air. The slap in the face was a good analogy and you know it. Care to refute it??
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
Sport is for people, For4. Given that the 19th hole, i.e the clubhouse, is often used for refreshment purposes after a gruelling round, why deny women that which men often look forward to after a game? It's discrimination, pure and simple. Maybe they should create a terrorist clubhouse, you know, for those terrorists that have been put through hell on the course. The point I am making here is that a golf course is a shared facility and there is just one clubhouse in most places to look forward to. Maybe they should create one for commies only, one for Jews only. Is that what you want?
For4, straight to the point. Is it about treatment of people or not? Can we agree that that's the commonality here?
SSM, so you are happy to leave the results of discrimination in place and just hope that the problem goes away? The way I see it, there has been discrimination against a group with no efforts to repair it. A bit like slapping people in the face and telling them, 'oh, don't worry about it, it'll pass'. Haven't you ever wondered why conscientious people let the other person slap them back? They realise their mistake, simples!
Sport is for people, For4. Given that the 19th hole, i.e the clubhouse, is often used for refreshment purposes after a gruelling round, why deny women that which men often look forward to after a game? It's discrimination, pure and simple. Maybe they should create a terrorist clubhouse, you know, for those terrorists that have been put through hell on the course. The point I am making here is that a golf course is a shared facility and there is just one clubhouse in most places to look forward to. Maybe they should create one for commies only, one for Jews only. Is that what you want?
For4, straight to the point. Is it about treatment of people or not? Can we agree that that's the commonality here?
SSM, so you are happy to leave the results of discrimination in place and just hope that the problem goes away? The way I see it, there has been discrimination against a group with no efforts to repair it. A bit like slapping people in the face and telling them, 'oh, don't worry about it, it'll pass'. Haven't you ever wondered why conscientious people let the other person slap them back? They realise their mistake, simples!
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]
That's what I saw at Warsaw train station. Baldy coots everywhere.
That's what I saw at Warsaw train station. Baldy coots everywhere.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
The message is the key, Patty ;)
Let's take golf, for example. Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden. In my eyes, there is no good reason to debar women from sitting in a clubhouse but I can tell you that, coming from the home of golf, it was the case at the turn of the century and maybe still is in some places. And the logic is.....? Elusive! All it needed was intervention but the authorities did nothing for soooooo long. I believe changes were drafted in but what changed in terms of entitlement? The logic has been the same throughout time so I can only imagine remedial action.
The message is the key, Patty ;)
Let's take golf, for example. Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden. In my eyes, there is no good reason to debar women from sitting in a clubhouse but I can tell you that, coming from the home of golf, it was the case at the turn of the century and maybe still is in some places. And the logic is.....? Elusive! All it needed was intervention but the authorities did nothing for soooooo long. I believe changes were drafted in but what changed in terms of entitlement? The logic has been the same throughout time so I can only imagine remedial action.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
I take your point but why should the discriminated against be left without any redress/remedies? That's my point! Your theory is spot on and I have no qualms at all. However, this is reality we are talking about and wouldn't you rather make a concerted drive towards parity, then normalise it? Sometimes we have to put right the bad deeds of others, undesirable as the method may be. I fully accept your stance but let's be realistic here. Do you speak as an aggrieved and discriminated against person, SSM? I think discrimination in all forms needs to be tackled but, like it or not, that requires an element of regulation in reality. See it as the steering function of government. It's facilitation and not overly hands-on.
You can't leave the status quo as then you will have permanent discrimination. Do you see my point here? Things often don't just sort themselves out, esp when attitudes become entrenched and discrimination institutionalised. Tools are needed.
I take your point but why should the discriminated against be left without any redress/remedies? That's my point! Your theory is spot on and I have no qualms at all. However, this is reality we are talking about and wouldn't you rather make a concerted drive towards parity, then normalise it? Sometimes we have to put right the bad deeds of others, undesirable as the method may be. I fully accept your stance but let's be realistic here. Do you speak as an aggrieved and discriminated against person, SSM? I think discrimination in all forms needs to be tackled but, like it or not, that requires an element of regulation in reality. See it as the steering function of government. It's facilitation and not overly hands-on.
You can't leave the status quo as then you will have permanent discrimination. Do you see my point here? Things often don't just sort themselves out, esp when attitudes become entrenched and discrimination institutionalised. Tools are needed.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / About Poznan! Foreigners, Life, Crimes, Job Prospects, Expenses! [12]
Snake springs to mind. A fairweather husband!
Snake springs to mind. A fairweather husband!
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
What is the practical difference between equality and parity in your opinion, SSM? With all due respect, it's a bit of both. Some regulation is needed, coupled with such schemes as you outlined.
OK, SSM, I'm going to come at this from a different standpoint. Imagine you are from a culture which has undergone serious discrimination. You are one of the discriminated. You then witness a regime change which looks to do 'the right thing' and rectify the imbalances. Wouldn't you look for some form of restitution? What is the function of government in such a case? If they have no role and just let the people decide, how do you think it would look?
What is the practical difference between equality and parity in your opinion, SSM? With all due respect, it's a bit of both. Some regulation is needed, coupled with such schemes as you outlined.
OK, SSM, I'm going to come at this from a different standpoint. Imagine you are from a culture which has undergone serious discrimination. You are one of the discriminated. You then witness a regime change which looks to do 'the right thing' and rectify the imbalances. Wouldn't you look for some form of restitution? What is the function of government in such a case? If they have no role and just let the people decide, how do you think it would look?
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
Then you are leaving a lot to chance, SSM. Without any regulation, people will just do as they please. This from quite a liberal guy who sees the danger in it.
Then you are leaving a lot to chance, SSM. Without any regulation, people will just do as they please. This from quite a liberal guy who sees the danger in it.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
That could work! In fact, this has happened and worked in Poland. Many Polish guys upped and left Gdańsk, only to leave many jobs for firemen needing to be filled. There was a plethora of applications from willing females so they turned it into a huge work experience project. Quite the successful experiment!
That could work! In fact, this has happened and worked in Poland. Many Polish guys upped and left Gdańsk, only to leave many jobs for firemen needing to be filled. There was a plethora of applications from willing females so they turned it into a huge work experience project. Quite the successful experiment!
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
Didn't you read the 'princesses need not apply' stipulation, Pol3? ;) ;)
SSM, if social redress is a good point as you said, how do you intend to redress it? Would you rather leave the gross imbalance or would you rather try and restore a level playing field? Just curious as you've made one good suggestion already. However, that was on the basis of a level playing field.
Didn't you read the 'princesses need not apply' stipulation, Pol3? ;) ;)
SSM, if social redress is a good point as you said, how do you intend to redress it? Would you rather leave the gross imbalance or would you rather try and restore a level playing field? Just curious as you've made one good suggestion already. However, that was on the basis of a level playing field.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
I see your point from the first 2 lines. It's a tricky problem for sure but I think your sensible recommendation in the second part of your commentary would go a long way to helping to restore confidence. That's what it's about too. However, other realities exist too. Ever talked to a white South African? They know full well what black folk endured under apartheid and are afraid of the backlash. Polish women don't have this sense of grievance or disempowerment in the workplace, I think. I think expressing their Polishness and being themselves means much more to them than entering the niggling debates I heard in the UK all too often.
I see your point from the first 2 lines. It's a tricky problem for sure but I think your sensible recommendation in the second part of your commentary would go a long way to helping to restore confidence. That's what it's about too. However, other realities exist too. Ever talked to a white South African? They know full well what black folk endured under apartheid and are afraid of the backlash. Polish women don't have this sense of grievance or disempowerment in the workplace, I think. I think expressing their Polishness and being themselves means much more to them than entering the niggling debates I heard in the UK all too often.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Is parity the answer for Polish women? [262]
SSM, while 2 wrongs don't make a right (as you correctly said), sometimes social expediency dictates the answer. Seen through one lens, affirmative action is merely social redress. Let's take apartheid, for example. Do you think that it created many imbalances? Should we strive for balance? If there is an imbalance, you must return to balance if that's what is desirable (which I think is). You have to restore the level playing field as best you can. The same applies to women but I think there is tacit consent with regards to roles here. In 7 years, I don't think I've ever heard a Polish woman gripe about chauvinism and being at an instant disadvantage. We are all people so it shouldn't be a factor if you have a penis or a vagina. It should be about stating objectives and having the right people in the right places.
SSM, while 2 wrongs don't make a right (as you correctly said), sometimes social expediency dictates the answer. Seen through one lens, affirmative action is merely social redress. Let's take apartheid, for example. Do you think that it created many imbalances? Should we strive for balance? If there is an imbalance, you must return to balance if that's what is desirable (which I think is). You have to restore the level playing field as best you can. The same applies to women but I think there is tacit consent with regards to roles here. In 7 years, I don't think I've ever heard a Polish woman gripe about chauvinism and being at an instant disadvantage. We are all people so it shouldn't be a factor if you have a penis or a vagina. It should be about stating objectives and having the right people in the right places.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Language / Hejka / Nara - a trendy youth greeting in Poland? [26]
I don't 'garee', no. Is it a dance? I agree with Magda. Hejka is not so new.
I don't 'garee', no. Is it a dance? I agree with Magda. Hejka is not so new.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Life / Do Polish people have a temper? [53]
Some do, some don't. Those that sometimes do, sometimes don't and vice versa.
Some do, some don't. Those that sometimes do, sometimes don't and vice versa.
Seanus
4 Dec 2011
Seanus
3 Dec 2011
Life / Positive things which make a Pole stand out positively in the World! [30]
youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=rjcp2wk2Hrs&feature=endscreen
nice video. We see the positive side of Poles here. Poles would like me to say Poles are this this and this but Poles are pretty diverse. People are people but we see some good vibes here.
youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=rjcp2wk2Hrs&feature=endscreen
nice video. We see the positive side of Poles here. Poles would like me to say Poles are this this and this but Poles are pretty diverse. People are people but we see some good vibes here.
Seanus
3 Dec 2011
UK, Ireland / Not all is bad for Poles in Scotland! [167]
Bartolome is the main Polish poster in Scotland. It'd be interesting to hear more stories of how things are there through the eyes of Poles.
Bartolome is the main Polish poster in Scotland. It'd be interesting to hear more stories of how things are there through the eyes of Poles.
Seanus
2 Dec 2011
Work / How is the living standard in Poznan? Does 5200 PLN enough for a decent living? [32]
Gloss? Advises? Researches? You are NOT going to be teaching English here, sorry! No native speaker with half a brain would write like that. Pay for student loan? Are you Peter Kay's good friend? ;)
Get outta here and stick to being a nob jockey!
Gloss? Advises? Researches? You are NOT going to be teaching English here, sorry! No native speaker with half a brain would write like that. Pay for student loan? Are you Peter Kay's good friend? ;)
Get outta here and stick to being a nob jockey!
Seanus
2 Dec 2011
News / Would Poland Be Stronger Without "The West"? [10]
There is no question that Poland benefits economically from the EU but globalists are willing to foot that bill. Stronger? Well, that really depends. If Poland withdrew from NATO, it would be perceived as betrayal. Poland must be careful not to be a 'sandwich' between bigger powers and Poland is the most experienced country in this regard. I can see the appeal of NATO as a security valve. I'd like to think that Russia would help Poland but Russia just isn't a very cooperative player. They are competitive and like the lone wolf by nature. Poland needs the West for sure but the key is in the specifics of how.
There is no question that Poland benefits economically from the EU but globalists are willing to foot that bill. Stronger? Well, that really depends. If Poland withdrew from NATO, it would be perceived as betrayal. Poland must be careful not to be a 'sandwich' between bigger powers and Poland is the most experienced country in this regard. I can see the appeal of NATO as a security valve. I'd like to think that Russia would help Poland but Russia just isn't a very cooperative player. They are competitive and like the lone wolf by nature. Poland needs the West for sure but the key is in the specifics of how.
Seanus
2 Dec 2011
Seanus
2 Dec 2011
History / Do any Poles miss the Communist era? [35]
Exactly what I was getting at, Penn. Those early morning lines/queues must have been hellish in the dead of winter!
Exactly what I was getting at, Penn. Those early morning lines/queues must have been hellish in the dead of winter!
Seanus
1 Dec 2011
History / Do any Poles miss the Communist era? [35]
I was talking more about the early days where people had jobs. They didn't have too much to complain about on that front but, as we know, there were harsh aspects which manifested themselves.
I was talking more about the early days where people had jobs. They didn't have too much to complain about on that front but, as we know, there were harsh aspects which manifested themselves.