just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian

;) Never mind. I just hoped for more 'detailed' explanation that would actually include words like: UPA and Volhynia; years 1943-1945. Thanks anyway.


Of course, I agree with that.

you should have stated how you wanted my answer to look like- it is indeed a good way to have a healthy discussion.

This is sth Catholics don't get.When sb tries to impose catholicism on orthodox folks it drives them mad for some reason I may not be able to explain.It is looked as a violation of national identity as an effort to change to sth worse.

Poles learned that from Ukrainians,Italians from Greeks and Croats from Serbs the harsh way.

It is an old and strong religion and should not be disregarded. Poles found out the hard way.

Yes,in 1180 15000 Westerners catholics were slaughtered in one day in Constantinopol.It is a long story.Greeks prefered turkish occupation to italian or french one when they had to choose.The reason was that Turks allowed orthodox church to operate.

I've heard the term "and then the Ukrainians came" used to end a narrative a few times. usually it was about WW2 when Ukrainian auxilliaries were let lose by the Nazis onto the Poles, such as during the Warsaw Uprising. There is usually a silence, so people can 'imagine' the next bit.

Good point, aphrodisiac.


Jola, you even have no idea about who fought who, mixing 14th Galicia division with UPA.


Who cares? I am not interested in throwing peas into the wall anymore I can quote the whole encyclopedia and you still cry. I wish I could sing you a lulliby ;)


Yep.


14th Waffen Grenadier Division made of Ukrainian volunteers fought EXCLUSIVELY Soviet army. UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought Nazis, NKWD and Polish AK and Armija Ludowa. Those who collaborated with the above-mentioned forced to prevent fight of Ukrainians for independance were considered enemies and rightfully so. There was nothing you call ``let lose``on Poles. If you take a look on Polish-Ukrainian relations in the past 400 years you will understand that Nazi were not necessary here.

Hajdulowie are hardly peasants. But they married Germans so that might be an explanation.

i have peasants on my maternal side, from Brzeziny near Lodz. And a proud bunch, too. Pecyny were so wealthy that they were buried in glass fitted coffins. My Great-grandmother however married without consent and got no dowry. They moved to Lodz with her poor husband and made a living in the textile factories. And then their daughter married the baddest young rascal on the street, son of a slippermaker. They worked in the former Israel Poznanski factory, today's Manufaktura.

I'm such a mongrel that it makes me immensely proud. All that Polish history all rolled into one.


I don't think we disregard it.

I'm not sure if you are aware but this year there will be huge reconciliatory talks between the Orthodox and Catholic hierarchies. Apparently, when there was a split in ancient history, it was over interpretation of one sentence. I can't quote out of memory. Now the churches found out that they actually MEAN the same interpretations. No split should have even been.

But anyway - Orthodox is also Russian religion, and yes, Polish politics have commited this: closed and took down Orthodox Churches. It was aimed at weakening the hated Russian influence, not Ukrainian, unless Ukrainians were seen as supportive of Russia. That was obviously as stupid as any other example of tearing down somebody's church. It also serves to show that Poland was really in strong conflict with Russia.

What is missing from this however is the effort to bring Orthodox into the Unified Church, Kościół Unicki, and thus from under the Russian influence. Into ours, no doubt. Hopefully into their own, if they can have it. But AWAY FROM RUSSIA.

Tough questions. Do we get Russified or do Ukrainians get Polonized? One of the 'would haves' is what would happen if Constantinopole had still been the head of the Eastern Empire? The two Emperors were never in conflict with each other.

It's better that Ukraine is there, buffering us from Russia. It's worse that they have an unstable government and society. I wish we would trade more, so that they can get rich.

You've forgotten of course Uniate Church which probably saved Ukrainians from being totally russified.

Hardly looks like a single sentence, which you have difficulty with recalling ;) Does that sentence of yours was the reason of burning 190 churches in Ukraine?


You put these questions very often in your history and got burnt. I hope you finally learnt something. (I am kidding, I will never ever believe in that, because you won't :)


;) No comment on that one.



Wow, what a traspass! It is really the worst he could have said ;) I am happy neither Russians, nor Polish did anything when they eliminated millions without saying these words on their own behalf.


I am surprised about all the Polish and Russian hatred Stepan Bandera evokes. A bit of history on him, which many of you even don't know:

He was imprisoned:
1934-1939 - Polish Concentration Camp in Bereza Kartuska (he was 25 years of age when arrested)
1941-1944 - Nazi Concentration Camp in Sachsenhausen for proclaiming independance.
In 1942 before even Ukrainian Insurgent Army was formed, Polish inmates murdered his two brothers Vasyl' and Oleksander.
His brother Bohdan was killed by NKWD in 1944.
His father Andrij Bandera sentenced to death in 1941 in Kijiv.
His mother and sister sent to Siberia into Soviet Concentration Camp; both were forbidden ever to return to Ukraine.
Stepan Bandera was shot in 1959 by NKWD agent in Munich.
He lost everything just because he loved his country. And yes, I admire him - he is more than worth it. He was more a political leader, who had great organizational skills, but not on the battlefield. Some said that he is our only hero ;) No, he is not. We have Roman Shukhevych, Lev Rebet, Taras Borovetz, Dmytro Klyachkiwskij, etc...These were fearless fighters, who all died for my freedom, not mentioning all the regular soldiers.


Weird is the fact that those who occupied my country let off snots of their noses and cry like pus*ies. Yes, this is very weird...


Ukrainian Catholic Church, which you call Uniate, has so little to do with Roman Catholic Church. Basically, besides recognizing a pope as a head of the Church, it is identical to the Orthodox Church. All the rites and the look of the churches inside is done in a marvelous Orthodox style. It played a major role in keeping Ukrainian spirit, traditions and language, not because it was Catholic, but exactly because it was Orthodox, different from Polish churches. That was the reason Poles burnt 190 churches in Wolyn (later they waited for love there;) and converted the rest into Roman Catholic. We live in times when religion seems something unimportant and faith is laughed at, but no, it is something that keeps us united, separate, unique...

Another boring history thread. None of you guys were there so what you fighting about? Lol

And you forgot to mention that Bandera was a chief of the terrorist group which made attempt on Polish Home Affairs Minister, Bolesław Pieracki and kill him in the very centre of Warsaw (Foksal Street). It was on 15.06.1934 and was the main trigger to open the Bereza internment camp.


Wołyń churches where orthodox, not Uniate, you should know this.

You may be right. However, the fact that a number of old people have used this story suggests that it is imbedded in some kind of consciousness and is part of a 'folk history' (whether true or not).

It can't be denied that there was a sizeable collaboration between nazis and certain elements of Ukrainian nationalists (although the soviets often downplayed it in their own accounts), mainly as anti-soviet (perhaps anti Polish) expression/action.

In the minds of many Poles Ukranians are in a lose-lose situation, historically. If they fought on the Red side they were collaborators with the murderers and oppressors and if they fought on the nazi side, they were collaborators with oppressors and murderers.

Have you read "Nine Lives" by Waldemar Lotnik?

Interesting article in today's press:
scotsman.com/news/To-half-of-Ukraine-he.6117523.jp

This might explain a few things

warsawuprising.com/paper/rona.htm

(as well as this there were SS affiliated cossack units in Warsaw).

wow!!! my grandmother had lived near Stanisławów until she had to escape from there ...

The only reason why they were able to move out was a birth certificate from Warsaw of one of my uncles, where they were for a brief visit. if they lost this paper they were doomed for the east when this area had been split by Stalin and peoples moved. We are lucky to be in Poland

Be sure I find it as well weird when people express their admiration to stalin here, even though "heroes" were of a different scale. Josia was for sure far more intellectual thug since he's never ridden the horse of nationalism.


I agree that for millions in Ukraine he'll remain this symbol (thankfully not for all or otherwise Ukraine as a state would already cease to exist), same will stalin be for millions of Russians. But my point was that Ukrainias could have chosen the real hero, not the straightforward nazi who exterminate people basing on their nationality ("our foes moskali, poliaki i zhidi"). :)


And just out of interest... :) We all know about Christianization of Kievan Rus'. Would you call people who were christened at that time "Ukrainians"?


That says it all.


I just feel deeply sorry for that you prefered false past to true present. That's it.

In addition to RONA, German forces included some units formed with volunteers and ex-POWs from various Soviet Union ethnic groups: e.g. Cossacks, Kalmucks, and Azerbaijanis (Bergmann Battalion).


Zaporozozhian Cossacks were Ukrainians, the rest Cossack groups that were formed later in different times in occupied by Russia regions were completely different case. Since 1775 when Russians destroyed the Zaporozhian Sich, Ukrainian Cossacks renew their existance only after the fall of the Soviet Union. Again regarding the "Cossacks" you are talking about:


So do not equalize Ukrainians to the Cossacks you are talking about.


Good article, Trevek, thanks. I haven't read W. Lotnik, but I definately check it out.


Wow!

It was more a way of suggesting why some people thought about Ukrainians (getting them mixed up).


Lotnik was a Polish partisan but he writes about fighting with Ukrainians. While he has an obviously pro-Polish viewpoint, he makes it quite clear that both sides were doing pretty much the same thing to each other. He actually mentions some of his comrades mutilating Ukrainian corpses.

he did not have to, he killed everybody on equal basis regardless of nationality.


It is your opinion and all I can say that it is not anybody's matter but the Ukrainians who believe in Bandera. He was a man of his times and if it was not him, another one would be chosen in his place. He merely reflected the sentiments amongst Ukrainians and it is one of the reason why many still think he is a hero. NKVD got rid of him, so he must have presented a great threat to USSR and it is not his nationalism, but his popularity. Stating that USSR has never been nationalistic does not change the fact that Soviet killed millions of people regardless of their nationality. Whoever was an enemy of the system - was to be rid of. Also, USSR would not thrive of nationalism since it would contradict the "ideology" of the many republics as one. Russification however was a form of nationalism.


nice try Sasha but I cannot see how that contributes to the discussion. All I can say that Ukrainians derive a lot of identity from Orthodox religion. What are you trying to say? Just say it.:)

And Polish fighters were right, Nathan. The only mistake is the name of the military unit.
It was so called 'Volhynian Legion' or 'Ukrainian Self-defense Legion' known officially in German sources as '31. Schutzmannschafts-Bataillon der SD'.

They were fighting from 15 to 23.09.1944 against Warsaw Uprising fighters from "Radosław" & "Kryska" Units.

So your nationals have their part in Warsaw Uprising.

Waldemar Lotnik – a young Pole in south-eastern Poland - chronicled with amazing clarity and insight his flight from organized Ukrainian nationalist terror in 1943 and his return for vengeance as a soldier in a Polish partisan unit in 1944/1945.


When it comes to Polish-Ukrainian relations during the war and the critical year 1943, you have only your own words, Nathan, not backed by any sources.

Aren't you interested in answering my questions #29?



You can add this to the list 'source needed'.


So what should have been done with those civilian 'enemies', their families, villages suspected of collaboration with AK? Weren't all Polish civilians potentially dangerous (civilian base), taking into consideration possibility of Polish uprising?

'to prevent fight of Ukrainians for independance' - an appropriate clarification. A bulk of UPA members were former Nazi policemen. In early 1944 UPA forces in several Western regions engaged in cooperation with the German Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, SiPo and SD etc.

Weren't Melnyk and Bulba also fighting for Ukrainian independence?



I don't cry, and don't want to throw peas at you/into the wall any more, just beware what you write.

Nathan would have the ignorant believe that OUN/UPA fascists, who did not have the support of majority of Ukrainians, were some freedom fighters for Ukraine's independence as if somewhere in history they had lost independence. Ukraine as a state is a 20th century invention, and in 1943 they were mass-killing Polish civilians on occupied Polish lands. The genocide of the civilian population in Volhynia makes OUN/UPA no better than the Einsatzgruppen, and but Germans do not glorify butchers . The Ukrainians have noone else to glorify so they glorify mass-murderers. From Ukrainian archives we even have documents authorizing mass-murder of civilians and commanders reporting their successes, much like the Einsatzgruppen Reports reported liquidation of Jews.


wiki on UPA

Dmytro Klyachkivsky, UPA commander's directive:


A few Ukis can call him a hero, just as there are a few Germans who consider Himmler a hero, or Russians who call Beria a hero. Take your filth to some neo-nazi forum, Nathan, but here you look like a troll.

I'll get back to you on the 14th SS Ukrainian fighting only Soviets to open your eyes who you are worshiping.

A very good book about Józewski's rule: Timothy Snyder, Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Yale University Press, 2005.

Ukrainian life in the inter-war Poland is often portrayed in one-sided way. As Snyder explains it: 'Soviet historians justified the Soviet annexation of Volhynia by portraying inter-war Polish policy as the exploitation of the honest Ukrainian peasant. Much of Ukrainian historiography has followed this line'.

- In the first decade of Polish rule, Polish authorities built 114 elementary schools and a high school, as well as three hospitals and ten public buildings. All important towns were electrified, and telephone service was introduced. The proportion of children in school increased from perhaps fifteen percent to more than seventy percent.

- The state subsidised local Ukrainian reading societies, which by 1937 had some five thousand chapters. The state also provided the capital for a Ukrainian cooperative network. The state-sponsored Ukrainian theatre presented national classics and national themes, and was on the road every weak a year.

- Józefski built a Ukrainian high-school and a Polish-Ukrainian technical school. Most Volhynian children, regardless of nationality, had some Ukrainian language in their schools. In 1933, there were 546 Polish schools with Ukrainian as a subject, and 530 bilingual schools. By 1936, more than two-thirds of Volhynian elementary schools had some Ukrainian component : either Ukrainian was taught as a mandatory subject in Polish schools (775 schools), or certain subjects were taught in Ukrainian in bilingual schools...

From encyclopediaofukraine.com:

The main centre of Shevchenko studies in the 1930s was the Ukrainian Scientific Institute in Warsaw, which published 13 volumes of a 16 volume set of the complete works of Shevchenko. The Soviet occupation of Poland put an end to the edition.

Doesn't seem like Ukrainian language and culture were forbidden.
As far as I know there was no 'pacification' in Volhynia.

So let's analyze this war criminals parade (haven't you know any more appropriate to be you hero):

Roman Szuchewycz - vice-chief of Nachtigall Batallion, and next Schutzmanschaft Batallions merited in beating Jews, burning down synagogues and terrorizing Belorussian and Polish villagers, he accepted and defended methods of Kliaczkiwśkij when he was attacked by some more civilized members of OUN central authorities. And as a chief of UPA gave an order to expel or liquidate Poles from 'our [Ukrainian] lands'.

Dmytro Kliaczkiwśkij 'Kłym Sawur' - the worst from your list; the exact genocide maker - chief of the UPA-North group, responsible for the great carnage of Polish villagers or Volhynia in 1943-44; his subordinates and incited Ukrainian peasants killed 50-60 thousand Polish neighbors and in effect made fled the rest cleaning this area totally from Polish 'element'. From 1150 villages and colonies with 31.000 Polish farms Ukrainians under UPA totally destroyed 1048 settlements with 26 167 farms. From 252 churches and chapels 103 were burned down. They even wanted to wipe down any sign of Polish presence there. Let's cite an UPA order from February 1944: "7a. destroy all walls of churches and another Polish cult sites, b. cut down all trees near the [burned down earlier] buildings, so there will be no sign there were living somebody..."

Religion, previous injures,real or imaginary cannot be explanation nor excuse for Bandera crimes.
Its was a Nazi ideology, and ethic cleansing cannot be justified or excused.

groups.yahoo/neo/groups/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/conversations/messages/25487

Too much love will kill you. Rest in peace, brother.






Just asingle source, which (what a surprise!), nevertheless, recognizes 16-60 years of age males and no kids and old people or women, pregnant or not, like many Poles like to quack about in front of Europe to make their pathetic case. Please, read the above, so I don't have to post it again. You want my answer for previous posts - sure, just as soon as I receive the explanation for the tied kids.


Deja-vu, anyone?;)


They did fight. So what is your point? Don't tell me that you believe in the final result of their efforts ;)


Yep.


I will be here.

Your citation patchwork became unreadable.
Klaczkiwśkij vel Kłym Sawur. The one source you probably mean were testimonials of Jurij Stelmaszczuk, one of his subordinates, chief of Turiw Group of UPA.

But it isn't only one source. Klaczkiwśkij was a chief of military organization in Volhynia and this organization made genocide. So who's responsible? Martians?

During the the 3rd OUN Congress in Zołota Swoboda on 21-25.08.1943
Mykoła £ebed and Mychajło Stepaniak criticized UPA tactics in Volhynia describing anti-Polish attacks as bandit actions. However a group of OUN activists defended Kłym Sawur demanding to repeat such tactics in Galicia. Most active defenders of Klaczkiwśkij were: "Horbenko", "Hałyna", "Iwaniw" oraz Szuchewycz (according to Stepaniak).

Don't append yourself to the list of defenders of killer.

The tied kids photo is a distraction that you would like to use to turn the attention away from the genocide of Polish civilians by Ukrainian nationalists. Let's put that one to bed. The photo is mislabeled often and you are right, it was a mentally ill Gypsy mother who killed her own children. You can answer Porzeczka's questions now.

As to our "pathetic case," and your fascist heros. OUN/UPA organized and carried out the systematic brutal murder of 50,000+ Polish civilians in Volhynia. You are not arguing that that is not true but, that it was justified. Had they driven them out west, without harming them, we would be having a different discussion now, but they didn't. They hacked them to pieces. I understand your dilema; your heros wanted an independent state. They fought the Germans, Soviets, and even AK. That was war, but murdering civilians on that scale is genocide. If you were decent enough, you would admitt this, but then it would be indecent to put up monuments and name streets after mass-murderers. Poland has agreed to preserve the graves of your fallen soldiers, but when we see you basking in the glory of butchers, we look at you as the blood-lusting, wild-horde of the east not ready to join the western world.

The "one source" you would like us to believe is nonsense. There are lots of sources, but professor Władysław Filar is a very good source. A military historian with hundreds of scientific publications, and access to Ukrainian archives, he has detailed the slaughter perpetrated by UPA.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

So much for following orders and murdering only adult males. In 1992, the bodies of the murdered were exhumed in Wola Ostrowiecka. Look at the head wounds and read the descriptions of this typical action repeated throught Volhynia - then put up a monument gloryfing the killers.

kresy.pl/wolyn/lubomelski/index.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Wola_Ostrowiecka

Wouldn't it be interesting for a Polish poster to say, just once, that Nathan has a point and may be right?! It's always like a battle and you can see this in shops and on the streets. Why must it be this way?

Learning Ukrainian shouldn't be too hard.

He also served with the Red Army and was trained as NKVD for a short time, before he fled to American Zone.