Was Prussia mostly German?

Good for them. They did not belong there. Not in what you call W.Prussia aka Pomorze.

Nonsense. Many Germans were invited by the Polish nobility and had settled in Poland long before the partitions. Additionally, people of German descent were asked whether they wanted to stay in Poland after WW1. If people were not listed on the so-called "Optantenliste", they had decided to become Polish citizens and were accepted as such by the Polish state. German ancestry or not.

There seem to be a lot of confusion here about the meaning of the term 'Prussia' and history of various lands to which this name was applied.

The history about pagan Prussians being conquered by the Teutonic knights, who then populated the land by German colonists applies only to territories east of Vistula, later known as EAST PRUSSIA. This was the land of pagan Prussians and this is the only 'Prussia' in original sense od this term

The territory west of Vistula, known in Polish as 'Eastern Pomerania' or 'Gdansk Pomerania' and in German as 'West Prussia' (or 'Pomerelia') had quite different history - it was a Slavic land, conquered and made christian by polish Piast rulers in 11-12th centuries. Then, in early 14th century, it was invaded by the teutonic Order, and only then the name 'Prussia' was extended to it. It's population was a mixture of local Pomeranian Slavs (later Poles and Kashubians) and German colonists, but there never were any pagan Prussians in there.

Kingdom of Poland never dropped claims for this land. Finally came the 13-years war in which significant part of the Order's subject fought against it's rule and applied to Poland for help. It ended with the treaty of Thorn of 1466 the land of Teutonic order was divided - western part, which included all of later 'West Prussia' and chunks of later 'East Prussia' was, as a province of 'Royal Prussia' made a part of the Kingdom of Poland and remained there until the first partition of 1772. And only after this partition the Kingdom of Prussia created the provinces of 'West Prussia' and 'East Prussia' as you know them, so 'West Prussia' is fairly recent term in historical scale, much younger than 'Gdansk Pomerania' ('Pomorze Gdańskie' in Polish), which was in use for this territory already in 12th century, before anyone heard about the Teutonic Order.

So the territory which you refer to as 'West Prussia':
- was over its history dispuded between Kingdom of Poland, the Teutonic Order and Kingdom of Prussia, and changed hands several times.
- in 1918 had a mixed Polish/Kashubian and German population (despite a century of Prussian attempts to assimilate the Poles) with Poles having majority in a kind of corridor along Vistula up to the Baltic (see the map form Robert Magocsi, 'Historical Atlas of Central Europe', www . llmap.org/images/HistoralAtlasCentralEurope/Central%20Europe%20-%20Mag ocsi001_page%2099_useforlegend.jpg )

- historically, has been a natural gate for Poland to the sea and sea trade

These seem quite reasonable reasons for Poland to claim this territory in 1918, at least not worse than Kingdom of Prussia had claiming them in 1772.

And while discussing the history of area in question one really should understand the difference between various meanings of the term 'Prussia', otherwise any discussion is likely to become a mess

Excellent explanation Qui!

I'm sorry but that's a lie, following Treaty of Versailles Poland did not drive out a single German, maybe you meant after WW2 in which case yes Poles booted Germans out of the lands they were granted in compensation for their eastern provinces and german-incurred losses during WW2 but after Versailles no Germans were driven out, at all.

Iam sorry to spoil the world view that you obviously hold dear Largelysane, but Iam afraid it is not a lie, it is a historical documented event, and two separate branches of my Family actually experienced it.

Maybe you were taught otherwise in a Polish school or something, but you should realise that all countries paint themselves in a positive light and hide bad points from even their own people. You have a choice to believe a lie because it is what you would rather believe, or you could investigate history if you were reakky interested.

Would care to provde some documentary sources or articles on the topic?

Indeed, an excellent explanation by Qui!


As Germans were expelled from the former German territories acquired by Poland on the decisions made by the Allies after the WW II, no such move was envisaged in the treaty of Versailles. If you claim that your grandparents were driven out of West Prussia, you should produce some proof of it, perhaps in the shape of an administrative decision. There existed a significant German minority on this territory of Poland between 1918 and 1939 and German-language press was printed in the cities of the region, so it clearly shows that German people stayed in the places where they lived before 1914. Another question is that they left altogether after 1945 even if they were Polish citizens before 1939. The reasons may have been that they were assigned to the highest categories of the Volksliste by the German invading forces after 1939 thus making them truly German citizens.

Your family experienced post- Versailles expulsions? Ok now lets stay away from la-la land, can you provide any proof of your made up ****? Seriously mate if you make stuff up as you go along at least have some links.

There isnt a lot that has been posted on the internet about this subject, its not of interest to many people, you would be better to research in history books were you would learn that following the Treaty of Versailles, German minorities in what became Poland made 10,000 complaints to the League of Nations under the Minorities Treaty which had been a stipulation of West Prussia being ceded to Poland.

There is some stuff on the net:-

worldcourts.com/pcij/eng/decisions/1923.09.10_german_settlers.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor#Exodus_of_the_German_population

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_German_settlement_in_Central_and_Eastern_Europe#1914-1939

By your tone however, you do not strike me as the studious sort of person who would even bother reading through such articles, but would rather employ childish insults, so to help you out, I copy and pasted just one paragraph from the World Courts documentation of appeals to the League of Nations.

17] By the documents filed with the Court the present subject of controversy appears to have been brought to the attention of the League of Nations by a telegram addressed to the Secretary-General on November 8th, 1921, by the German League for the Protection of the Rights of Minorities in Poland (Deutschtumsbund zur Wahrung der Minderheitsrechte in Polen) of Bydgoszcz (Bromberg), which stated that several thousand families of farmers of German origin had, in violation of the provisions of the Minorities Treaty, been called upon by the Polish Government to vacate their lands before December 1st. The telegram urgently requested that measures [p17] should immediately be taken for the protection of the persons in question.

For others here who are genuinely interested, a couple of good books, recommended to me on this site by the way, are :-

amazon.com/Orphans-Of-Versailles-Germans-1918-1939/dp/0813118034/

These books contain a great deal of documentation and correspondence from the powers that be regarding these issues as they occurred at the time.

My own views however are based on my personal family history which I an unable to furnish links for, and I am afraid your insults will only make you look stupid in my eyes as I am aware of what occurred in my family and you are not.

Thanks for the posts Peter, but I am afraid that they merely confirm, as far as this debate is concerned, that you haven't got a leg to stand on. And what is more, that you appear to be a Holocaust denier. One of your suggested books is described in the following way: “For his historical publications challenging the official 'truth' about the Holocaust. Udo Walendy was sentenced to 29 months imprisonment in Germany”, I thing this description should give a red warning light to anyone following your argument.

As for your other posts, there is a lot about German attitudes and attempts to Germanize Poles, but very little on the expulsions of Germans from Poland. One of links in relation to a judgment of the International Court is in relation to a minor legal technical point, but it doesn’t go into any details of Poles forcing Germans to move out.

Meaning German colonist paid by German gov to settled in on the Polish land. After Poland regained Independence it surly become problem. It is not as Germans born and living on said lands become problem.

I dont know why Amazon attached that note about the author and holocaust deniel as this book has nothing to do with the holocaust, the description was about the author as can be assertained in the first line, "for his historical publications".

It would have been better if I posted the link to the British Amazon were there is no description but one review that is more accurate to the book.

Anyway I see Iam wasting my time here arguing with people so desperate to retain their blinkered view that they would resort to character assassination, all one has too do is look at the figures regarding the decreasing numbers of Germanics living in West Prussia in the years after the first world war.

And how my posts confirm I havnt got a leg to stand on is beyond me, you obviously didnt read them or just cherry picked to support your view, heres a bit more copy and paste to help out any 3rd parties who might be viewing this debate which is surely wasted on the posters.:-

German political scientist Stefan Wolff, Professor at the University of Birmingham, says that the actions of Polish state officials after the corridor's establishment followed "a course of assimilation and oppression".[65] As a result, a large number of Germans left Poland after the war: According to Wolff, 800,000 Germans had left Poland by 1923,[65] according to Gotthold Rhode, 575,000 left the former province of Posen and the corridor after the war,[66] according to Herrmann Rauschning, 800,000 Germans had left between 1918 and 1926,[66] contemporary author Alfons Krysinski estimated 800,000 plus 100,000 from East Upper Silesia,[66] the contemporary German statistics say 592,000 Germans had left by 1921,[66] other Polish scholars say that up to a million Germans left.[66] Polish author Władysław Kulski says that a number of them were civil servants with no roots in the province and around 378,000,[clarification needed] and this is to a lesser degree is confirmed by some German sources such as Hermann Rauschning.

You have blinkering view because Germans were no expelled from Polish territories after WWI! The fact they left do not mean they have been expelled!

One side of my family lost a house and all possessions with no compensation, the other side a complete Horse farm.
I think people dont just "leave" all their property unless you were presented with compelling reasons to do so.

If you could be bothered to read history books on the subject, you would discover that some now Polish areas interpreted their governments hostility to Prussians to include violence and even murder.

But oh no, unlike every other people of the Earth, the Polish could never do anything bad eh?

Maybe, what of it?


I think your family grudge is blinding you, you shoudl always look for a contexts.


Any prove or just stories told to children!?


You haven't proved that anybody has been expelled form Poland after WWI!

So...? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make... ?

You havent posted any proof and what you're saying is in direct contradiction to history, i'm starting to think you're a bloody troll.

So the fact that they did not want to live in an independent Poland would have nothing to do with them wanting to leave? You have to remember that the majority of these people had nothing but contempt for the newly reborn Polish state. The sources that you provided clearly indicate that, so the fact that that the German government indoctrinated its people in this way would have nothing to do with them wanting to leave?

From your earlier posts I gather that your family were land owners, so it is possible that they could have been some of the people effected by the land reform act (which effected everyone and not only Germans) BTW, what part of Poland did your family come from?

Yet another one writing about historical issues,#somebody should really oppress his dumb-ass!

Why? Do Poles have a monopoly on the "correct" version of Polish history? They shared the land with other ethnicities for a very long time. Is anything that is published outside of Poland automatically a lie, Nazi propaganda or anti-Polish in your eyes?

Śóp!

You people are very intelligent

No but I don't see why anyone should agree with primitive promotion of Germanic victimhood and xenophobia.

Family histories evolve (change) over time and I'm sure that by now you believe that. yours' was expelled. Families protect their past and bend facts to suit their interests and to make themselves look better. It's a kind of self protection about their heritage. The original facts as to why your family moved are probably personal and lost to history.

Because he is not historian and he is writing rubbish, yet another political scientist and historical fiction-ist like Gross.


Or rubbish, As to why, you don't ask me. Experience though me that this pretty much the way it is!
Poles are most objective in their dealing with history. Don't ask me why!
The distant second are Americans probably because you can find there anything so you can also find very good and objective works dealing with American history.

True. This is a place for Polish victimhood and xenophobia only...! :D

Yep. Except 100 tonnes of American/english/germanic/russian/french/jewish/... dragon tales.

Its a shame they want to take that away from you.

I very much doubt that. Many Poles seem to be quite knowledgeable when it comes to the history of their country, but I have to ask where this knowledge is coming from. The schools ... which get their orders from the government ... which is run by politicians ... who are controlled by ... ? The historical knowledge the majority of Polish people have is mostly based on what the official line of the government demands. Every country does that, no doubt, but that doesn't mean that the version of history that is taught in the schools is always the correct one.


LOL!

You can doubt that as much as you want but you are not in position to make comparisons.