Hello everyone! An interesting discussion. Indeed Gallipoli was erratic and a drop out and there seems to be a concensus about it in the academic world. The reason for that weird execution of that capaign was ignorance, arrogance and incompetence both political and military. In that era on the one hand one guy Laurence of Arabia could mobilze a considerable force out of nothing on the other you had armies from intolerant nations incapable of carrying out a single strategically logical operation. Let alone communicate about the goals of their madly developing industries and forms of ruling that could not contain any dangerous development in technology, society, economy - anything!
But when the WW1 was a warning which did more harm to male european population than any medieval epidemy, the beginning of the WW2 showed the total bankrupcy of crisis management not only in Poland but of all so called Allies.
We should not assume that socio-economic and political mechanisms were unknown back then, otherwise all the diplomatic efforts and pacts of the '30s would not have been so intense. During my undergraduate studies in Strategic Studies Dept. in the nineties those times were not even considered substantial for future global strategy as no alliance had any substance as there was absolutely no forum capable of down to the business and restrictive actions. There was no real concensus and no will to look over own plates.
The British had a chance to build Europe as they wished but they were still involved everywhere and nowhere. It was not just their failure that Germany again could try to trick all and do it in a "total" manner - there was not even anything new about it!
Even today in our naivity we like to think that the Allies just failed to react. It was not really so. Again there was no preparation in Britain, worse there was a sympathy for NS ideas especially in life style and economy model matters. And so Poland had to decide if they even fight or not because they knew that Brits would not budge. That awareness made them send all good ships to England before the outbreak of the war! Surely no sign of confidence in the Alliance!
But back to the original question - who was the first to help Poland - I think it was Romania which allowed the Polish armies to retreat through their territory.
One wonders what connections were there? Obviously we should give more credit to the actions of few influential people in the goverment and among the elites and to the sympathies between nations rather than thought out strategy even though these actions and sympathies just could not have a decisive, uniting and organizing power necessary not only to control Germany but to create vital plans for the benefit of Polish economic and military sovereignty and so for the whole of Europe. Let us not forget that it was Poles who have always had a paneuropean vane throughout their history since ... the Piasts, later through various foreign elected kings and including a union with Lithuania, efforts to unite with Ukraine, the help to the besieged Vienna, the Legions, the somewhat one side frienship with Italy, France and Greece, diplomatic efforts of famous public figures throughout the first 30 years of the 20th c, the sympathy and support for Spanish republicans.
I think in aviation, navigation and with submarines they were more advanced than most of Europe but the fact they were so war orientated was one of the biggest factors in events leading to WW2.
You think nothing, you can only base observations on what youve read or watched. You keep on saying 'I think' as if it's some kind of kaz genius that none of us have ever come across before.
Never the less i would like to hear more on the navigation side, from the 'your think' angle.
He might be right about navigation or rather cartography and espionage, optical ingeneering, radio communication. The naval ship building was very progressive though not all strategy clever - if you heard about Bismarck, Tirpitz and Graf Speer for that matter they were rather doomed unlike the U-Boot fleet which were relying very much on cartography and related maritime research further on espionage, encrypting techniques and perfect logistics. The U-boats became an easy prey for the bombers operating from land and from the only British aircraft carrier when they begun to decipher the enigma code that Poles cracked before the war for the first time. Enigma was being improved and so the Brits and Poles had to constantly adapt to it but they were decrypting the new versions soon and so they knew the positions of German U-Boots very often and could destroy them when they resurfaced during the day even in bad weather.
my great granny is 87 years old- she lived the history- the ukrainians where the worst the russians second and germans where third- they where NICER than the russians
The Germans had a shorter time in Poland than the Russians so they couldn't reek as much havoc as the Russians but I'm sure they would've been much worse. They at least created a Poland that in size is fairly substantive. Germany had their Generalplan Ost which would've necessitated large scale genocide and ethnic cleansing of Poles. They would've turned most of Poland into part of the Reich. Russians were terrible but the Germans would've destroyed what we know of Poland.
While I was never taught about Polish history or raised there and despite Germany invading Poland in 1939, the Germans did Poland a favour. What did the Americans or the British actually do in return? All these 2 countries did once they were informed of the Katyn graves was to sweep it under the carpet in order to keep the peace with Russia. To me, it sounds like these 2 countries were just as bad as the communists. Also, what did these 2 countries do for Poland after the war to prevent the take over by the communists?
Your question should be rephrased ona. It should be who was the first country to receive help from poland? In September 1939, Nazi Germany and Soviet union jointly invaded poland under a military pact. The polish troops fought with great motivation and courage but could not hold on from a two front attack. The German occupation of poland was brutal, with the Nazis exterminating both polish Jews and ethnic polish people. The soviet occupation is less known. While the soviets claimed they were liberating poland, they were just as brutal as the Nazis. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of poles were shipped to Siberia and central Asia to forced labour. The Russians arrested polish officers and intellectuals and murdered them in the depths of Russia. The most notable massacre took place at katyn. Altogether 22,000 poles were murdered in these forest massacres. While poland was battling the soviets and Germans the west did little more than declare war on Germany. No fighting other than the ocassional skirmish in France take place during this period in the western front. Polish soldiers on the other hand escaped to France and formed a army in exile. When the Nazis invaded France, polish troops defended French positions longer than the French defended them. Because of brave polish delaying actions in the
Invasion many French and British troops were saved. After France surrendered polish troops reformed in england. They formed air squadrons which defended English skies during the battle of Britain. They achieved the best scores in shooting German planes and were some of the best pilots. Meanwhile in occupied poland, poles formed the largest resistance in occupied Europe. They gathered intelligence and delayed German troop convoys. They gave this intelligence to Britain and the west. When Germany invaded the soviet union, Stalin formed formed a polish army to fight alongside Russian troops against the Germans. This was done even.after the evil Russia inflicted on poland. Many poles who were released from the gulags did not want to remain under soviet domination and went with their families south to Iran. They formed in Palestine to create the Carpathian rifle brigade under general anders. They fought the Germans and italians in north Africa and Italy. Their most important victory being Monte casino. During the.Normandy invasions polish troops fought along.side.american British and Canadian troops to liberate France. They played a critical role. Meanwhile back in poland, the Russians started pushing the Germans back. When the soviets entered poland, they received help from the polish underground. After the polish soldiers helped win actions and battles, the Russians arrested or executed the officers and conscripted the underground fighters to fight in the soviet polish army. The soviet polish army made immense contributions to the soviet war effort, and.thousands.were.killed fighting Germans in the eastern front.for.a.power that wanted them dead as well. As the soviets.approached Warsaw, the polish underground launched a massive uprising.against the.Germans. The poles wanted to create a free polish government before the soviets came and.imposed a communist one. The uprising received no help from either america Britain of the soviet union. This occurred even though the.soviets were across the Wisla river. The Germans crushed the uprising and 200,000 thousand poles were killed. 17,000 Germans were killed in the fighting with 9,000 wounded. After the uprising was crushed the Russians.roles into Warsaw placing a.communist dictatorship. The destruction of polish resistance was even more helpful to the Russians than the Germans because it.destroyed the main center of polish resistance to soviet rule. Even though the western and eastern allies abandoned poland, polish troops fought to.the end helping in the assault on Berlin. After the war poland was left under.a.communist.dictatorship overseen by Russia. Polish patriots were executed or sent to Siberia. The last polish resistance.fighter.was killed in 1963. I am sorry if I went of track. Yes countries like Britain and america did give limited help to poland, but to little. I only summarized polish contribution to the.war, and left out.many things. I hope however that this helps clear up your view of.our.country.
Sorry smurf I was in kind of a rush you know. I really write much better than that.przepraszam. I also don't know why I just spread random periods every where.
The uprising received no help from either america Britain of the soviet union.
The Soviet Union on the other side of the river we know about. America also didn't want to help. Your assertion that Britain didn't help might come as a surprise to the families of the airmen who crashed in Park Skaryszewski while dropping supplies to the Armia Krajowa.
You're actually (perhaps unwittingly) repeating a PRL era myth.
Churchill was genuinely furious at Stalin's callous reaction to the Warsaw Rising, and in particular at the Soviets' denial of landing facilities for the RAF. He was eager that Roosevelt should join him in a forceful protest, and was dismayed by the President's refusal to do so. Warsaw revealed Churchill's declining influence among the 'Big Three'.
- Norman Davies
An estimated 360 airmen and 41 British, Polish, South African and American aircraft were lost.
I apologize. Many of the airmen were British pilots as well. Remember I was only summarizing an event and a general history. Also remember that most of the pilots over Warsaw were polish not British. And in the end of my paragraph I did mention that Britain and america gave.help to the polish cause even if it was to little.
The simple fact is that more British airmen took part in the Warsaw Uprising than Polish airmen took part in the Battle of Britain. And a lot more died too. It's always sad to see people lying about that sacrifice.
most of the pilots over Warsaw were polish not British
Although the Polish contribution to the airforce was important, most of the squadrons involved in the Warsaw Airlift were not comprised of mostly Polish pilots.
And in the end of my paragraph I did mention that Britain and america gave.help to the polish cause even if it was to little.
A lot to do with the fuel capacity of the planes in those days combined with the Russians' refusal to allow them to land and refuel. That and all the other things going on at the same time which also required planes and pilots.
Harry, I don't.lie about.the help of British airmen. I am grateful for their help. I did not phrase myself correctly. And the polish.airmen.did fly over poland in.great numbers. It was their.country.after all. I was taking about how poland was abandoned on a much more.political level. Britain could have sent pressure to the Russians in a much more potent way. This would have forced the Russians let British planes land on their air fields, enabling help to Warsaw at a much earlier date saving the lives of both poles and.Britons. unfortunately britain did to little to late. But yes I do honour.and remember the.British and.polish pilots that.died.in the.skies.over.Warsaw.
American refusal to help was the deciding factor in that. And of course all the other things going on in many different fronts of the war, not just Poland.
I am as polish as anything roger. My parents were born and raised in poland and my entire family that I love very much lives in poland. Actually I am writing all of this from poland. My family were in the labour and concentration camps. They lived through communism and participated in solidarność. My second cousin was halina pienkowska who was a very important part of solidarity. I do not live poland, but I am connected to this polish land with my blood and my heart. Attack my views, I'm okay. Do not attack me personally. Thank you.
Go investigate for yourself and learn. Stance of Serbs in back then Yugoslavia, was first real and selfless help to Poland. No matter that it was suicidal for my people
WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? Serbians, or as old Poles called us- Racowie
Stop with the lies Crow: Poles know that not only did you Serbs do nothing to help Poland in WWII but that your Chetnik scum collaborated with the Nazis. Here's a photo of some of them:
Let us here don`t manipulate with situation which was result from the German genocide on Serbs. Chetniks were legitimate members of the Yugoslav Royal Army, while government and King were in exile in Britain.
Story is that Germans, for every 1 killed (by resistance movement) German soldier executed 100 Serbian civilians. So, Chetniks sometimes were forced to negotiate and to accept temporary cease fire with Germans in order to prevent further killings of Serbian civilians.
In any case, Chetniks of General Draza Mihailovic inflicted significant damage to the German forces during WWII. Its well know historical fact.
From Over 500 US MIAs Saved By The Serbian People During WW2
"LEGION OF MERIT - CHIEF COMMANDER: General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslavian Army Forces and later as Minister of War by Organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory. March 29, 1948. Harry S. Truman."
Hitler invaded Poland on 1st of September 1939. Britain declares war on Germany 3rd September. No help from Britain as they didn't mind Hitler and Stalin taking Poland just like hitler took Czechoslovakia. 1940 - Battle of Britain, 126 aircraft shot down by the most successful squadron, 303. 1944 - Warsaw uprising, still no help from Britain. 1945 - 8 May war ends. How does Churchill pay back Poland for Battle of Britain? Sells them to Russia. This is the truth my friends. If hitler would have invaded Russia past Moscow, Britain would join him instead and they wouldn't have any problems.
