EU or Russian Empire, who taking/took more from Poland and Poles?

Philosophical question- EU or Russian Empire, who taking/took more from Poland and Poles?

so, what you people think?

- Poland biggest beneficiary of EU funds
- EU subisidies for Polish farmers' exotic crops
- EIB money for Poland (Stu: although these are loans)

I don't think Russia (or even the former Soviet Union for that matter) has ever given Poland anything. They only took away.

people, people

This isn`t about giving but about taking. So please, stay on topic


be more specific

I think the most important thing to take into account is that Poland democratically entered a union with other European states to form the EU. Poland has never democratically entered a union with Russia.

The E.U. took 2 million Poles into their labour force.

Russia on the other hand, took countless millions into their labour force (gulag system) be it during the Czar or Commie system. ;)

what i know from history, Russian Empire took some number of Poles and relocated them to Siberia. Is there any specific number?


Thank you. Finally answer on the line of topic

SB, when you mentioned.... what are current trends? Are Poles still leaving Poland and migrate for EU countries, attracted with all kind of things?

That's just beautiful, in a sick and distorted way, which makes it absolutely on topic :)


The ones who actually survived the journey?


Attack on the NKVD Camp in Rembertów (Wiki)

what is with resources? who pump/pumped more resources out of Poland?


millions? that much?

It is a REASON that most Poles have always looked negative towards Poland's eastern neighbor

its a good REASON. i understand that.

there are rumors that EU presidency needs to cost Poland 110 million euro in 2011. If that could be truth, its robbery and could be very good example for this thread. Its definitely- taking something from Poland.

There is a thread about this already.

65,000,000,000
- 110,000,000
=
Crow, please come rob me like the EU has robbed Poland!

Again, it was voluntary. Poland doesn't have to take presidency of the EU, they could for instance give it to Slovenia which seems to be able to afford it.

yes, i know. Germany, France and Britain invest


voluntary? you know, it could be another philosophical question.

In roads, airports, schools, power plants, water works, dams, shiny new rescue helicopters, radar for ATC, courthouses....

that 65b is for infrastructure, not private investment.


Asking your people if they want to be a part, majority says yes, I'd say that's as voluntary as you could get.

Crow, Russians took away much of the Polish spirit. However, we must pinch ourselves as a reminder that communism was entered into by Stalin but not done away with upon his death. Poles had communists within their ranks too.

What has the EU taken away from Poland? We know what they have been given (generally good things) but taken away? Some autonomy but all signatories are in that position.

Yeah. I remember that deluge of propaganda.

So the Polish people are too stupid to decide things for themselves? People were coerced into voting yes? How so? I'd be interested to see what kind of propaganda there was, and how the reality is different now 6 years on.

Don't you know about democracy?


Nauseating, in the best commie traditions. The resulting majority was not too big either.


Now it's different. People see the benefits of free labour movement. People can't see the benefits of prices equalising.

Bless you for that :)


Nearly 80% voted "tak" that day with over a 50% turnout...


Of course, the problem is that price equalization happened much quicker than salary equalization. On the other hand, people see it as a success that the NBP dropped the value of the zloty in order to keep growth positive over the last couple of years. Self made pain?

I'd say you might be right, actually. Just don't call it 'the people's choice'.


I'm no good at macroeconomics, I must admit. For me the growth is more of an artefact than actual thing. Weak zloty encourages export of labour mostly, and I'd rather keep those people home, working in their professions rather than washing dishes abroad.

Who's choice was it?


And I agree. Thank the NBP for that.

Politicians'. New better troughs.

you do have to admit that the turn out was incredibly high. Do we fault that the politicians that the people are fickle and stop caring after the vote is done?

The turnout was a result of propaganda. Then the propaganda stopped, not needed any more. There's no way out of the EU.

Sure there is, the Lisbon treaty formalized it.

Really? Good :)

Yup, but I think it would be a bit, ahem, devastating in the short term. By short term, I mean, the next 10 or so years...then, if, and only if, Poland can elect a competent government, than maybe you'd see benefits of not being a member of the EU.

I'd agree. Only I am aware of those 20 years already wasted. Back then people were ready for shock treatment and they saw how it translates into day by day improvement.

Your point about the government is spot on.

About EU I would like only to post some graphics (tells more than thousands words ;-))
It's about small part of general picture but imporant part. It's about circulatory system of economy. It's about highways & motorways :-) In much of you can see some EU funds are involved, of course only some percent of an overall cost. Of course many of those roads below are builded by western companies, but many are builded by Polish ones, and some small part even by Chinese...

Current state of highways and motorways in Poland (only this, without smaller class roads), state on 17.10.2010, map created by Moloch, esce, latajacy dywan from skyscrapper forum:

Legend:
Green - existing
Red - in bulding
Purple - design
Yellow & Brown - tender
Blue - environment decision (quite important papers)

Highways and motorways in building (only this, without smaller class roads), state on 10.2010, created by toonczyk from skyscrapper forum:

Legend: black is sum of all classes

Highways and motorways existing and in building (only this, without smaller class roads), state on 10.2010, created by sliwers from skyscrapper forum:



Legend: green existing, red in building

economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/09/poland_and_russia

There has also been criticism of Polish policy, mainly for abandoning "the Jagiellonian idea" and departing from the Giedroyć-Mieroszewski line. It is high time to stop using labels that have little significance today. One gets the impression that those who speak of "the end of Giedroyć's concept in Polish policy" do not comprehend that it is only now that possibilities have appeared for the implementation of his ideas on a scale previously unthinkable