Before World war 2, Poland controlled large parts of Eastern Ukraine, Belarus and a part of Lithuania
these lands has been ethnically polish for centuries, until the poles were forcibly expelled from the east by the soviets
many polish people, including myself still consider these lands to be polish, to this day a large polish minority survives in them
I believe that Poland should recover these lost territories, it wouldn't just benefit the polish state but also the people living there, if eastern Ukraine and Belarus became a part of Poland, living conditions and wages would improve, the polish government would invest in infrastructure projects and life in general would be better for these people, they would no longer have to live under the poor, unstable and corrupt governments of Belarus and Ukraine
do you think Poland will ever regain these lost territories ? and if they do, would the local population support the polish state ?
Well Szeliga the problem with that is,that if you look at Belarus for example, the majority of the population is not Polish. They're Belarussian. Why would they want to be governed by a foreign power?? Just because Belarus was once a Polish territory doesn't mean it should be again. People have a right to govern themselves, however badly they do it.
And I think you'll find that when it comes to the crunch, however sentimental Poles may be about their Polish brothers in the borderlands, when it comes to sharing the Polish money pot with them it would be a different story. Poland itself is a developing nation which cannot afford to take on the problems of places like Ukraine and Belarus. Also even if Poland were rich enough to do it, life would not be better for those people. They would be a minority in Poland, probably flooding to the large towns and cities, competing for jobs and being intensely disliked by Poles.
"Lost" territories, TheOther?? Hmmm, seems to me that's historically debatable. To be sure, former Germans lands stretched far beyond the more limited region parceled out to them than is the case today. However, many of those were the results of Crusades and conquests by among others, the Livonian Knights during the Middle Ages, so who then is to say that they are actually German, and not originally Polish territories??
I wouldn't call that "unfortunately". If nations in Europe start fighting over territory again, WW3 isn't far away. Be happy that Poland is free and prospers. The events in 1989 could've led to a desaster for everyone east of the Iron Curtain.
Fine. So long as it is understood, if not accepted, that so-called "German lands" in the "former East", may not ever have been "German" at all, but instead, booty of the Teutonic Knights:-)
I wasn't the one who started using the term "lost territories", Lyzko. If you really agree with those ultra-nationalistic nut jobs that Poland has legit territorial claims in the east, then you'll have to accept Russian, German or Austrian claims as well. You can't have the cake and eat it.
that so-called "German lands" in the "former East", may not ever have been "German" at all, but instead, booty of the Teutonic Knights
Same goes for the so-called "Polish lands", doesn't it? They may not ever have been "Polish" at all (to use your words), but were instead taken from someone else who lived there before the ancestors of the Poles arrived in the area. Can of worms, dude. We had this discussion a million times before here.
There is no point getting land to the east it will always be unstable and distabilize the whole country. For my money its a really stupid idea, polands borders are the best they have been for centuries and they should stay that way. all we ever got from the east was pain, be it from the russian bear or uki fanatics. I don't even understand why they want to be involved there at all in ukraine. Stupid move.
Hey, folks! I agree that the base thread is ultra-silly! Yet while we're on the subject of giving, resp. getting "back" lost land, let's at least be accurate about which land allegedly belonged to whom. As such can probably never be proven by some sort of Platonic "Ur-deed" way back when, it'll just plain never get resolved, and we'll all have to deal with it as is, PERIOD!
Think of the old Arab-Israeli Conflict as an analogy. There never was a founding document in Biblical times, only a distant inkling on either side that's festered into a mega- bad case of "G-d said, they said"!!!
I think a Confederacy of Slavic nations could be created. Total population of Poland + Czech republic + Slovakia close to 60 mln. If Ukraine will be included in this Confederacy (with its population no more than 40 mln) the preponderance still be on Western side. A union could be settled in a way that it wouldn't hurt anyone and wouldn't create influx of poor to rich cities. Polulation of all these countries is diminishing all the same and they could solve this problem either by taking in immigrants or unification. A large Confederacy with 100 mln. population could be created. Most of executive govt will be in hands of Western Slavic republics. Your thoughts?
Why would you want a confederation of 100 million have-nots (sorry to be blunt) with no competitive industries to speak of who would be under constant threat by Russia, when you can be part of a 500+ million strong union (the EU) which consists in large parts of rich and developed countries? Makes no sense.
Does one thing prevent the other? And do you think that majority of Czechs, Slovaks and Poles are have-nots? If we belive to an official legends economy is steadily developing in this countries. Ukrainian economy could grow ten percent annually I guess, if it could receive a stable and trustworthy govt.
And do you think that majority of Czechs, Slovaks and Poles are have-nots?
Compared to the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, France, Sweden, Finland, Italy and Luxemburg ... yes. That's not even meant in a negative way because the nations to the east of the former Iron Curtain were at a big disadvantage for a long time.
If we belive to an official legends economy is steadily developing in this countries.
Yes, but only with a lot of help and financial support from the EU.
The thing is I trust Poland to fight, claw and make its way out of post communist disadvantages. I do not trust ukis and all the rest of them to do this. I expect corruption backstabbing and corrupt russian influence. Just like the soccer scandal and its obvious to most of us they have been corrupt for ages yet weasel Putin is on telly today saying the opposite. Gees it's a real surprise the weasal is backing this being one of the biggest thieves in the world today. Our opinion here is he is actually mentally ill. Back to the point I don't trust the neighbours to not end up with some corrupt trash or some right wing nut job and not to fall pray to russian corrupt meddling. They should keep those lands and do nothing at all useful with them as they already are that way they can leave us alone.
There is no denying that the eastern borderlands now part of Ukraine, Belorussian, and Lithuania make up a considerable amount of our history and culture. It is in a way a piece of out heritage and we should consider it that.
Still, I believe that it would not be practical to get that land back. Many thousands of Ukrainians, Belorussian and Lithuanians are settled there and it would not be right to move them from their homes or conquer them. No doubt, there is a large Polish
minority there, but still it would be a bad idea to take these territories. Putin would use the division to his advantage, would demonize Poland, claim to save Ukraine(which he is destroying now) and Belarus, and use this not only to swallow up all of these countries but to make a pass at Poland.
In the long run, only Russia can profit from us regaining kresy. This is a new modern era with new, modern trip wires.
There is no denying that the eastern borderlands now part of Ukraine, Belorussian, and Lithuania make up a considerable amount of our history and culture.
we all now belong to magnates from the west of Europe. edited
but still it would be a bad idea to take these territories.
As well as logistically impossible to invade Belarus which would unleash a terrible war. Likewise with those parts of Lithuania - it would lead to suspension from the Union and international sanctions.
This is a new modern era with new, modern trip wires.
Yes, also another good point, I agree. Retrieving Wilno would seperate us from the European union, and could lead us into conflict with the west. If this happened, the russian position in the east would be much stronger, and putin would be able to grab land using the old soviet liberation trick
I occasionally read RT, to watch Russian propaganda at work. A few months ago, when the crisis in ukraine was in its climax I read an article focusing on radical polish groups who want to seize lwow from ukraine, and on alleged " fascist" groups in ukraine who are anti polish. While such groups exist,( in minority) we see a russian propaganda push that aims to divide it's opponents.
As of now, they work from propaganda, if poland ever moves into ukraine, they have real ammunition.
50% polish is on to something. Rather than the improbable proposition of taking back land, better make a case for reparations for the land and other property that was taken and destroyed. While one cannot put a price on the lives of innocent civilians massacred in eastern Poland during WWII, one CAN learn from others how to demand reparations for such atrocities and losses.
The Germans might think the shoe's on the other foot here:-) Give POLAND back her "lost" land??! Achingly problematic without a deed, to establish primogeniture. It all revolves around he said/she said.
I'm sure you will also support the idea that Germany should recover its lost territories in the east as well then...
No, he will not support idea that Germany should recover its lost territories in the east.
He actually mistaken that didn`t ask for recovery of Polish lands on the west. He forgot it. But, you didn`t forget and its good reminder that Germans never will, to demand western parts of Poland. Its good reminder how is NATO nonsensical alliance; good trick for now but, not solution. Only solution is Intermarium and neutrality on global world powers. With it, good relations with key world players. Then, in Intermarium, Poland may hope to be able to take care of its security within global Intermarium`s security, able to repel any possible invasion on her territory.
To be honest may be a Slavic country in the east will the be the leading country in Europe in the future. Western countries are weakened by their mass immigration from Africa.
Studies prove that criminality in the rise everywhere in Western Europe. Insecurity is increasing beause of clash of cultures. Students in Western are failing in international exams like PISA. It will have in the long term dramatic effect to western economy. Poland has more intelligent students that Germany or France or UK according to PISA. Why ? According to Thilo Sarazin : mass immigration from Africa, Turkey.
Mass immigration causes terror attacks across Europe, blasts ... express.co.uk/news/uk/691235/Hungary-EU-migrant-crisis-immigration-open-borders-terrorism
Western Europe politics will in the long run look like in Africa. The future of Western EUrope : ethnic wars, massive raping , an so on ...
Slavic countries should really unite against this future threat.
It is untrue that crime is rising in every country in Western Europe - there are some where it is rising like UK and some where it is falling, like Germany and Holland. Still I doubt facts make any difference to your prejudiced views.
Poland recieved reparations until the mid 50s when it agreed with East Germany that they were no longer required in return for acceptance of the Oder as the border. The issue was further discussed shortly after the end of Communism and agreed that no reparations are due - raising it now when the youngest possible participants in 1939 invasion are 95 will help nobody. Germans already provide significant support to Poland via EU funds and by NATO.
Poland could be a significant player in Europe and was on a good track to increase its influence until the current clowns took over and decided the best way forward is to antagonize all of their allies in turn.
And as for your point on education then the biggest issue is fixing the gap between Poland's quite good school system and its terrible university teaching.
Correct, cms! The so-called "Oder-Neisse Linie" was already well established by the close of 1949, at least! The Basic Law (Grundgesetz) of at that time West Germany clearly set forth which formerly occupied territories were once again solidly in German hands, the German Constitution being far more thorough and detailed in comparison with the US-Constitution, for instance:-)
Cities in current Poland aka Gdańsk, Szczecin etc.. are NO LONGER obligatorily listed on atlasses in der FRG under the pre-War German names of Danzig and Stettin, as was once the fashion until around the mid-80's or so. These cities, much as Wrocław, are completely and undeniably Polish, the habit of referring to the latter as "Breslau" only inciting anger among Poles as old, painful wounds are recalled.
