Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets?

The west didn't have the fight left in them for another war against the Russians. Churchill suggested arming the germans to fight the russians.

4 eigner,So why do you think they didn't just do that?

bs politics, my friend. Besides, everyone was tired of war.


and he was right about that.

4 eigner,I know that sentiment had existed.I'm not sure how feasible this would have been to achieve.

Your answer is non-responsive to the academically cited promises of British naval support. The important point is that if British promises of naval support were made, why were they not kept?


You are historically inaccurate here. The Nazi's didn't invade Denmark until April 1940, and Denmark and Sweden controlled the straits into the Baltic. The Germans didn't have radar to track ships, and the Northern latitudes of the Danish Straits were quite dark much of the day in September 1939. Somehow, the Soviet Navy was able to continue operations in the Gulf of Finland despite the Luftwaffe and German army surrounding St. Petersburg. Funny that. The difference is that Soviets knew they had to fight, and the Brits really didn't want to fight in the Baltic. When they finally went to France, they really didn't want to fight there either, and they evacuated from Dunkirk as soon as they could rather than stay and fight on the Continent.


The larger problem was the lack of a port in the Baltic from which to operate There was room for more diplomacy here in Baltic by the British, but they were uninterested in pursuing other alliances here with the little Baltic states, etc. Hitler was convinced that British and French didn't want to fight. Sending British ships into the area would have sent a strong message to Hitler and an attack on those ships may have resulted in more initial support for the war in the U.K. The fact remains that starting with the Locarno Treaties, the British were willing to cede the Baltic to the Germans. This is followed by the UNILATERAL Anglo-German Naval Agreement in 1935, which permitted the Germans to rebuild its navy. Simply limiting discussion to September 1939, does not absolve Britain for what followed, although I hear crickets for the Brits here on these issues.

Lastly if you were going to lose a ship, it is far better for it to be where the fighting is. Sending the Courageous out to hunt submarines and then having it sunk by a German sub was beyond inept. It was incompetent and a humiliation.


Correction, they did have it, but its effectiveness is questionable:


navweaps/Weapons/WRGER_03.htm

Bless, more trawling wiki eh?
Hey, Yank,what exactly did your country do for Poland in 1939?

Because thousands of Brits would have been putting their lives on the line and resources needed to maintained in order to protect our own asses, yah?

Not sold out.
The problem here is that Britain (and France)made some promises. Never fulfilled them. That is the fact - there is no sense to discus it.

Questions open to debate:
Why they promised and never delivered?
Was it diplomatic game aimed at stopping German consolidation of Europe, to be precise to keep Poland form joining the German camp(axis alliance)?
If not why would they promise something they wasn't able to deliver? Wouldn't that make them chronically inept?


The red army has nothing to do with it, Russian invaded Poland on 17th of September. Britain and France were supposed to come to aid of Poland no later than on ten of September.

Ironside,I know promises weren't kept,but to insinuate that this was deliberate is what I can't understand.sometimes people forget that governments are made up of people and people can drop the ball.

Exactly. For France and the UK it was never about fighting for freedom and democracy as they claimed after the war, and it was also not about coming to the aid of Poland. The only reason why the Brits and French entered the war was that they wanted to prevent Germany from becoming a global power (and therefore competitor) again like it had been before WW1. All they cared for was their own power game; Poland was not important to them. Just ask yourself what would have happened if not Germany, but Russia would have been the first aggressor to attack Poland. Do you think a declaration of war from Britain and France would have followed? I very much doubt it.

Yawn. Are you really still trotting out that lie? Not getting tired yet of people pointing out that it is a lie? Or perhaps you are finally going to go into detail about what it was that was within Britain's power to do to assist Poland which Britain did not do? I doubt it.


The question is actually why you keep lying about what the British were able to do and what they did.


Pity for you that the Anglo-Polish treaty says no such thing and it never will, no matter how many times you lie about it saying that.


Really? So perhaps instead of just moving posts into the bin because they contain facts you'd prefer to see swept under the carpet, you can go into detail about what it was that was within Britain's power to do to assist Poland which Britain did not do? Or are you also just going to tell the lie that Britain didn't keep her promises to Poland?

That diplomacy.
You are forgetting that they couldn't predict what will happen.
For them it was like - a good move, Blocking Germany from the east and at the same time keeping Poland from joining German camp.

They were hoping for the best.*maybe) Germany blocked and our guarantee will stop them from attacking Poland,

.

Harry,I don't prefer to sweep facts under the carpet only insults,lol.I never said anything about the ability to keep those promises;were promises made or no?.Don't take it as an indictment don't tell I any ones lie btw.

Given that the Anglo-Polish treaty specifically states "hostilities with a European Power", Britain would have had no obligation to do anything (as was made clear in a protocol to the treaty).

Harry,then why did England declare war on Germany?

Ironsides' post above yours might suggest something slightly different.


Yes. And they were kept. If you wish to claim that they were not kept (which you clearly do), kindly go into detail about what it was that was within Britain's power to do to assist Poland which Britain did not do.

Harry,tell me which promises were made and kept.

Read them for yourself (I'm surprised that you have not, given that you claim the promises made were not kept):

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement_of_Mutual_Assistance_between_the_United_Kingdom_and_Poland-London_(1939)

I'd particularly draw your attention to:
"ARTICLE I.
Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power." That is why I'm asking you to go into detail about what it was that was within Britain's power to do to assist Poland which Britain did not do.

Now, perhaps you can tell us why you moved a fact-filled post which showed that Chris is, at best, talking utter shiite but are happy to leave Ironsides' most recent post which insults me?

Which would mean that all this talk by Britain and France about protecting democracy and freedom was just that ... talk.
Hypocrites.


I would be interested in the *real* reason as well. Not because of Poland.

Harry,Not directly to Poland,I should have made that clear,my fault.Chamberlain should never have let Hitler take Czechoslovakia.I never said that England didn't do what was within her power.Chamberlain,s appeasement decision was not the best route to go.

What promises had Britain made to Czechoslovakia? None. France had a treaty with Czechoslovakia. Britain did not. Oh, and you may wish that Poland took part in the invasion and annexation of Czechoslovakia along with the Nazis.


Frankly they should have told Germany to invade (although that most probably would have brought Poland in on the Nazi's side when the USSR honoured her treaty obligations).

Harry,So Czechoslovakia isn't considered Europe?

I'm not seeing any point in that question. Could you perhaps explain what you are getting at?

Harry,were the allies obligated to respond;when Hitler breached the treaty?

No. Read it for yourself: avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/munich1.asp

Harry,once again,my bad;I meant Versailles.

Harry,The league of Nations was obligated to stop Hitler once he started.The west dropped the ball,Including and in my opinion more than anyone; the U.S. This is what I have been referring to.Was it intentional;I most assuredly do not think so.England did what she could when the time came and I do believe did what was in her power to do.Churchill knew long before any one what Hitler was about and I honestly believe had he been in power the allies would have reacted sooner.That's my take..

It is completely off topic!
Focus! They lost the ball. That gone and done.
Czechoslovakia done in as well.
The only country in the region still independent Poland.What they do? Promise help in case of war with Germany. Contrary to what Harry claims that treaty promised substantial military help.

The only way they could help was to attack Germany. French Army on land and British navy and air forces on the sea and in the air.

Not later than on ten day of war.

^ Is there any danger of you ever quoting from the actual agreement?edit:

Ironside,this is why I don't quote anything,I've studied enough about it.People here suggest that the west deliberately left Poland to the dogs.Every one can go with technicalities and semantics all they want.I understand why Poland would feel that way.At the same time people have to consider what the west was going through;nothing is cut and dry.It was a messed up time,People were war wary before 2 began.When you add the human factor you have to factor in human imperfection on all sides.It's really sad to me that people can't look at the fact that a lot of well meaning people gave their life in that war.The hell with governments,I'm talking about people.going away from home and dying for the cause on all sides.Btw the treaty of Versailles is on topic.