Oh, really? Search for the origin of the "macedonian" language.
Oh really yes. The origin of a language is does not make it a dialect of that language. Unless you think Polish is a dialect of proto-Sanskrit and Italian is a dialect of Latin.
And didn't name any airports after some German/Czech/Russian/Ukrainian king
The owners of an airport can call it what they like. It doesn't mean they can rewrite history by doing so.
The origin of a language is does not make it a dialect of that language
Yes, you're right, it's not about the origin. It's about what this language really is, and some experts say it's a bulgarian dialect.You were saying something about similiarities between languages and I agree there are similarities especially between slavic countries. But here we're talking about more than 90 % of the language, even Czech with Slovak I think have more differences. Anyway I think I will just drop it, this thread got way more interesting with : Harry,Flagless and Ironside, so it'd be a shame to spoil it. In less words: I agree with whatever you have to say, Alexander was Macedonian, born and raised in Skopja, right next to his statue somewhere and macedonian culture got spread till far east.
some experts say it's a bulgarian dialect.You were saying something about similiarities between languages and I agree there are similarities especially between slavic countries. But here we're talking about more than 90 % of the language, even Czech with Slovak I think have more differences
With Slavonic language, there's more of a continuum than language walls. Within the major groups anyway.
I wonder if we can draw a comparison with Belgium. It's possible that the Flemish (almost Dutch) part will split. And the Walloon speaking part (some say a dialect of French and some say a discrete language) will go the other way.
Macedonian isn't a dialect of Bulgarian - in fact, that's the normal offensive thing used towards them. Some dialects may be similar to Bulgarian, but that's no different to how people in Cieszyn speak a similar dialect to those in Cesky Tesin.
A very complicated subject. The standard Macedonian language has been invented in 1944 by Blaje Koneski, with the support of a special committee consisting of Serbian and Soviet experts. Its fundament is the dialect of Ohrid and the Western part of the country. The base of standard Bulgarian is the Eastern dialect, and thus the both standards lead to very different vocabulary and grammar. Macedonian alphabet is pretty similar to the Serbian and many words have been inserted from Serbian into Macedonian, in order the both languages to seem more similar. There is one letter which is missing in Macedonian alphabet despite the fact that the language needs it- it is the letter ъ (or shwa, something like Polish y). Interestingly enough, the sound shwa appears in some words but cannot be written, because its presence in the alphabet would mean similarity to Bulgarian alphabet.
Another point is the fact that Macedonian and Bulgarian are the only Slavic languages without use of cases. Centuries ago the population ofthese lands used cases, but they almost disappeared. For that reason we cannot compare the relation between these languages with the relation between any other two Slavic languages.
All that does not mean that Macedonians today are Bulgarians. The both peoples have common history and culture, but Macedonians have chosen to go on their way alone. The problem is that they distort their history too much, which leads to absurd conclusions (the last I read was that all Slavic languages have their origin in some Proto-Macedonian).
Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock. Macedonians have been Walking and Talking Greek style for >3 Millenniums...from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.
Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to self-determine in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors - Who got face to deny them!
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonija cannot use the Macedonian name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity for all of those reasons stated above.
Macedonians have always spoken the Centum-Greek language and always subscribed to Hellenism...the culture of the Greeks, from ancient times to the present.
Lesson of this thread is very important for the Poles. It shows how is dangerous for Slavs to accept Anglo-Germanic historical school about late arrival of the Slavs in Europe. Such a teaching serve to all who came in conflict with Slavs, put them in advantage over Slavs, while are Slavs forced in defensive.
In reality, Proto Slavs gave birth to the Western civilization, not the Greeks, not the Romans. Greeks and Romans contributed but, great journey of the West started with the Proto Slavs.
Greek influence consolidated in Vardar Macedonia just after fall of Bylazora, ancient city with such an obvious Slavic name. It was before 219 BC when King Philip V captured Bylazora, the largest town of Paeonia. Paionians, as we know, were Thracians and, Proto Slavs of that time were recorded as Thracians.
Macedonia:The Name, History, Heritage, Legacy - It's All Greek. The Western Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative recorded the ancient-Macedonians as a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. FYRoM cannot use the Macedonian Name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. The Message is Clear: FYRoM cannot use another peoples regional-tribal name for National-Identity...Crystal Clear!
From a Historical Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were always depicted belonging to the Greek-Hellenic World.
From a Linguistic Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians was always portrayed as a Centum-Greek speaking region inhabited by North-Dorian Hellenic-peoples
From a Cultural Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were always seen subscribing to Hellenism...the culture of the Greeks.
From a Religious Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were always illustrated practicing the religious beliefs of the Greeks.
From a Material-Culture Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians always used Greek things...from dress code to building materials, to pots and pans.
From a Foreign Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians was always seen as a Greek-speaking region inhabited by Hellenic-peoples.
From a latin-Roman Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were ring-fenced into Macedonia-Prima...an administrative district the latin-Romans kept Greek and distinct. Macedonia Secunda Salutaris, the Second-Macedonia, or Beneficial-Macedonia, was an administrative district the latin-Romans reserved for NoN-Greeks - Paeonians, Dardanians etc...this is where the Former Yugoslav Republic is situated geographically, on Paeonian Dardanian lands.
From a Greco-Roman Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were ring-fenced into a military district protected zone named 'Theme-Macedonia' relocated in Thrace...where modern-day Bulgaria is situated.
From a Naming Perspective - Macedonia(n) is an ancient and archaic Greek-Hellenic regional-tribal name...created by Centum-Greek speakers, the originators of the name in the first place.
From Ownership Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians: The best demonstration of Ownership over that name is 'Theme-Macedonia' where Byzantine Greco-Romans relocated the name to a different geographical location in Thrace. Names go wherever the creators and originators take them...even to different far away places.
Conclusion:Macedonia is Hellenic from since the times of King Karanus 778-808 BC...
Macedonians have always been intrinsically connected to the Greek-Hellenic world...just one of >230 known, ancient-Greek groups tribes and kingdoms which together, collectively formed the Hellenic-Tribes from antiquity.
Macedonians are North Dorian-Greeks - Spartans are South Dorian-Greeks...same Hellenic-Tribe distanced by geography.
Macedonians are blood related to the rest of the Greeks - Kith and Kin.
I have been taught in high school that Macedonians were a tribe closely connected to the Greek ones, however they were considered barbarians by Greek people.
Proto Slavs, back then registered as Thracians (ie Sarmatians) were native primordial population in Europe. Particularly, they were natives, if we speak of the territories of what is today`s Macedonia and Greece. Thracians in Greece later entered in contacts with Egyptians. As a result hybrid Hellenic culture was created. Then, those Hellenes started to influence other Thracians, so the Macedonian, too.
i would say that Macedonians have right to use term Macedonia. Why? Who can say that name of Macedonia isn`t result of prevailing Thracian cultural/linguistic/ethnic element in the region, or maybe, of prevailing Thracian element within Hellenism itself. You, know, Macedonians at least preserved their native European dialect (Slavic language) and with it direct connection to the original Thracian culture.
It was about genesis of the situation. So, let Greeks leave Macedonians at peace
Nobody has the right to disrespect my ancestors...the ancestors of the Hellenes. Nobody has the right to disrespect the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian.
From ancient times to the present - Macedonians have always spoken the Centum-Greek language and always subscribed to Hellenism, the culture of the Greeks...a continuum of more than 3 Millenniums.
There exists today, a Southern-Slavic element that underestimates the Collective intelligence of World Academia - a body of Knowledge that demands respect.
There exists today, a Southern-Slavic element that underestimates the Collective intelligence of World Academia - a body of Knowledge that demands respect.
Nick, Greeks shouldn`t provoke my people. Let us all prosper. Bottom line is, Greeks themselves are children of Thracian (Proto Slavic) world
As for Macedonians. They are protected. Don`t humiliate them anymore. Forget it
Global Politicians and Worldly Diplomats have both spoke on the subject - The Onus is on The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonija to compromise...to find a proper more suitable name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.
The Macedonian Name belongs in the Greek domain, Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...this is the general consensus amongst the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the international Academic community.
Global Politicians and Worldly Diplomats have both spoke
yes. Yugoslavia faces partition. What then little Macedonia can expect if stubborn
this is the general consensus amongst the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the international Academic community.
True. Real Slavic history and contribution to the global civilization is forbidden topic. That is one of rare things on which even heads of Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Churches absolutely and wholeheartedly agree and when they talk about it, they, i am sure, even kisses each others.
The Macedonian name dispute in all of it's dimensions has taught Europe and the West some important vital lessons...that the Balkans still remains a backward untamable place - Europes Wildest Frontier. The fault lines continue to transcend ethnic-racial, cultural and linguist boundaries, where fractious Christendom splits 3 ways in competition with Islam, for the hearts and minds of the faithful.
The FYRoM cause: An indulgent endeavour on behalf of some anti-Hellenic Western political elements to establish FYRoM as a NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation to spite the NoN-Conformist, Maverick Greeks. The FYRoM cause ended up to be a lost cause...those who invested in it lost heavily, big time!
The Neo-Ottoman cause: An indulgent endeavour on behalf of the same anti-Hellenic political groupings to establish Turkey as the Neo-Ottoman Controller of the Balkans...a troubled region of Europe the West never really controlled in any real directive sense. The Neo-Ottoman cause is currently going the same way as FYRoM, it is ending up to be a lost cause.
Greeks have survived the worst kind of racist national-character onslaughts inflicted on by those anti-Hellenic Western political factions in order they get their way.
But look...2014:Hellenic Revival Year - Greece is on the up!
With FYRoM isolated, and with Turkey now being dumped on...it leaves the field wide open for Greece to exert influence in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Haemus-wide Hellenic ideas shall once again cover the whole peninsula.
The Balkans: Europes wildest frontier shall revert back to native control of it's destiny. Meddling...whether Hermannic, Turkic, Anglo, Franco or Slavic have all proven futile - The Haemus is crying out to revert back to the peninsulas native-roots and ethnogenic origins. Ancient regional-tribal names want to make a come back. Turks see themselves in ancient-Trojans, modern-Turks see their roots stemming from ancient Troy. Albanians see themselves in ancient-Illyrians, modern-Albanians see their roots in ancient-Illyria. FYRoM sees it's beginnings stemming from ancient-Macedonia, the Slavic-speaking peoples there see themselves in ancient-Macedonians. Romanians see their ethnogenic origins stemming from ancient-Dacia whilst Bulgarians see something of themselves in ancient-Thrace.
Left alone...the Haemus [Greek] peninsula can rise again, Europes wildest frontier could resurrect itself as a bastion of Hellenic thought wisdom and sapience - practiced by all the natives of the Haemus.
Macedonian Identity is not transferable. Macedonian Identity started off as Hellenic according to the Western Worlds cultural historical narrative...only FYRoM, a newly established Slavic-speaking country disputes it. FYRoM does not recognize the Greek-Hellenic Identity of the ancient-Macedonians, nor does it acknowledge Alexander the Great as the ancient-Greek King of Macedon. In FYRoM, the children there learn about the Proto-Slavic origin of Macedonians where Alexander the Great becomes Aleksandar Veliki - the first Czar of the Slavs.
When asked to recognize Alexander the Great as the Greek King of Macedon...FYRoM South-Slavs refuse to do that, citing some homegrown pseudo-historical text's which depict and illustrate him as the first Czar of the Slavs.
When asked to acknowledge ancient-Macedonia as a Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic Kingdom...FYRoM South-Slavs refuse to do that as well, citing some homegrown pseudo-historical narrative which depicts the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon as a barbarian Greek-hating Kingdom that ruled over ancient-Hellas.
FYRoM does not recognize Macedonia as being integral to the Greek World or having long history associated with Hellenism, or being blood related with the rest of the Hellenic-Tribes. FYRoM bluntly refuses to recognize Macedonians as Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples.
Greeks cannot transfer Macedonian Identity over to FYRoM in order they use it for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.
Haemus-Native regional-tribal Identities do not migrate across ethnic-racial boundaries unless absorbed into the host native culture. Macedonian Identity cannot make the leap from Hellenic to Slavic the way FYRoM wants it to.
Haemus-Native regional-tribal Identities do not jump across ethnic-racial boundaries nor do they migrate over cultural linguistic ones. The Greek-Hellenic Identity of the ancient-Macedonians cannot transfer to Slavic on the will or say so of some FYRoM South-Slavs in search of National Identity.
Macedonian Identity is not transferable!
Macedonians have always been Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock...from since the times of King Karanus 778-808 BC.
Polish guy here. For what I remember from school - Alexander was described as "Great" or "Macedonian". And Macedonia was described as a part of the Hellada. Or Greek if you like it more.
Alexander was Greek to the core of his bones. Born in Pella. He conquered non-Greek barbarians and spread Greek culture. I am sure that he definitely wasn't half-Bulgar, half-Albanian. :D lol
Macedonians have always been Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples - those who do not know that, do not know history! Macedonian Identity is not transferable! Macedonian Identity cannot make the jump from Hellenic to Slavic without scrutiny - Identity does not jump over ethnic-racial, barriers, or migrate across cultural-linguistic boundaries. FYRoM cannot use the Macedonian name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity on that basis. The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise...to find a proper more suitable name to Identify with.
FYRoM cannot use the Macedonian name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity on the basis, the Macedonian name is rooted in Hellenism...created by Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. Names can be adopted but Identity is something else - Greeks cannot transfer Macedonian Identity over to Slavic-speaking FYRoM South-Slavs on the basis, Identities are not transferable outside the ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic people-groups that created them in the first place.
Names can be adopted but not the Identity. Identities are inherited. Regional-Tribal Identities are inherited...onward transmitted, passed-on, from one ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic generation to the next. Macedonian Identity is not transferable outside Hellenic boundaries.
The Macedonian Name belongs in the Greek domain. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek Heritage. The Name can be adopted but not the Identity. Macedonian Identity is not transferable! FYRoM Slavic-speakers cannot make a Hellenic regional-tribal name Slavic...nor can they transfer Macedonian Identity over to Slavdom - unilaterally.
Which is ridiculously childish on the part of Greece - the EU should have told Greece that if they wanted the bailout money, they had to drop their objection to the name of the country. The Greek attitude towards Macedonia has been nothing short of pathetic - and the Macedonians are having a field day creating an entire cult around Alexander!
Good point. Greece behaves like a child on that issue and is disrespectful. It would be similar if Ukraine, Poland and Spain started a fight over the name of Galicia. Who gives a rat how people decide to call them. Besides, the Macedonians have a very good reason for that.
The point about Identity not being transferable is a good one. The point about adopting names is a good one as well. Names can be adopted, so the South-Slavs from Vardar adopted the Macedonian name in 1945, from when Tito first created the Peoples Republic of Macedonia in a Federated Yugoslavia. What is wrong is Vardar South-Slavs want to adopt the Identity of Macedonians when they were in ancient Hellenic trajectory and part of the Greek world.
People-Names and Place-Names generate Identity. Language-Names generate Ethnicity. Country-Names generate Nationality. The Macedonian Name for FYRoM generates Ethnicity and Nationality which conflict badly in Philological terms with the People-Names and Place-Names there. FYRoM People-Names and Place-Names are exclusively Slavic - generating Slavic Identity.
Awarding FYRoM the Macedonian-Name for Ethnicity and Nationality makes Macedonian Identity Slavic, which conflicts badly in historical demographic terms with the Western Worlds cultural historical narrative - Macedonians in mainstream history were always illustrated and depicted as Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples.
Macedonian Identity is Hellenic and cannot transfer to Slavic on the whims of a newly emergent country in search of National-Identity.
Awarding FYRoM the Macedonian-Name for Ethnicity and Nationality makes Macedonian Identity Slavic, which conflicts badly in historical demographic terms with the Western Worlds cultural historical narrative
People of the USA are called Americans. Does it "badly conflict in historical demographic terms of the Western Worlds cultural historical narrative"? And no one is going to "award" a nation with a name. I don't think the Macedonians are going to ask the Greeks how to correctly call themselves. Ridiculous!
What is wrong is Vardar South-Slavs want to adopt the Identity of Macedonians when they were in ancient Hellenic trajectory and part of the Greek world.
wrong. Macedonia isn`t what was ancient Greece but what was ancient Paionia. Its different. True, Paionia was under the strong Hellenic influence but they were not ethnic Greeks. You can also say that entire back then known Europe was under the Hellenic influence and later under the Roman influence but, great majority of Europeans aren`t neither Greeks, neither Romans.
Actually, from the intersection of data from different sources, we know that Painoians were ethnic Thracians ie Sarmatians, in fact Proto Slavs (say old Slavs). So, Slaveno-Macedonians do have quite legitimate right to call themselves Macedonians and their country Macedonia.
Ancient-Paeonia is where The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is situated today, geographically. Use that name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Macedonian Identity is not transferable, it belongs to Greek heritage.
Macedonian Identity is rooted in Hellenism...there are Greeks today that continue to self-determine in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors. Who got face to deny them!
see, we have interesting situation. If we ultimately go back in past, Greeks originates from Thracians (Proto Slavs). Then comes the Egyptian influences on native Thracians and Hellenism was born. After it, Greeks (now Hellenes) started to spread their influence on other Thracians (Proto Slavs). Some more Thracians (Proto Slavs) were Hellenized and later turned to be ethnic Greeks. Now, some time ago, within back in past Hellenic zone, in what is today`s Macedonia, some people goes out of Hellenism.
how i see that, ultimately, both- Greeks and Slaveno-Macedonians share Thracian (Proto Slavic) ancestry. Crucial problem here is falsification of Slavic history and negation of European Proto Slavic antiquity, by the ruling establishment on the west of Europe.
We are all prisoners of political involvement in historical science
