Switek: Germans used to executed entire families for such help, in practice Germans murdered all inhabitants of the home where Jews were hidden.
That would be very much the exception rather than the rule.
Wrong, Harry. It depends when it happened. At the beginning of the war Germans would even emptied the whole city building and shoot people on the street just as example to others. After Stalingrad they might "just" shoot caught Jew and one Pole directly involved. Those were basically individual calls.
Some Polish underground organization like the NSZ, existed for the sole purpose of killing the Jews hiding in the forest[/quote] What a bunch of bullsh!t.
NSZ, existed for the sole purpose of killing the Jews hiding in the forest is as true as Gestapo and SS existed solely to bring help to suppressed, poor people of Poland.
The author of that mythories, oop, memories, forgot to mention that NSZ (and other underground units) were fighting against soviet partisans, not Jews. But, because there were plenty of Jews between the soviet occupant's units, Jews were killed as well.
But why mention that? Fvck that. Poles were, are and will be nasty antisemites killing Jews just for a sheer fun of Jew-killing.
Most were passive witness who did nothing to aid their neighbors nor did they assist the Germans in destroying them. But by remaining passive (it is arguable) they took on a kind of bystander guilt and complicity.
Hmm... I didn't know it was a duty for Polish men and women to die for Jews, especially when there was a law telling exactly what happens for a pleasure of helping Jews.
In fact the evidence says that it was not.
The occupation authorities threatened with death any person who obstructed Nazi designs to destroy the Jews. This dire punishment was not only written in the law and known to studious attorneys but made public by posters on bulletin boards in all major cities.
Hmm... I didn't know it was a duty for Polish men and women to die for Jews, especially when there was a law telling exactly what happens for a pleasure of helping Jews.
Hey...I didn't wrote that! I wondered why many Jews have only venom for Poles even as Yad Vashem seems to tell a different story so I looked for online "survivor-stories" from Poland...
Well...if I were a Jew reading this I would get a skewed impression too!
Let me ask you again, moral judges of Poles, would YOU risk your children lives to save a Jew?
I think most people would not risk their own necks to save someone who is not of their own family and even that i am unsure of.
To put it another way, would any of you, put your life or that of your family on the line for me?. Answers on a post card to : No.142 I know the answer already Maxwell house Paris.
That is why the people who did risk it all should be honoured, for that is true bravery.
Well here is link to offcial site of Polish jews where they talk about " engagement in communism"
fzp.net.pl/spot12.html
You know BB it is not secret in Poland.
The same as who murdered Gen Nil you can watch good movie about it.
/wiki/Emil_August_Fieldorf
The charges against her were initiated by the Commission for Investigating Crimes against the Polish Nation, which claimed that Wolińska was an "accessory to a court murder", classified as a Stalinist crime, and is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. The case attracted international attention.[1]Wolińska-Brus died 26 November 2008
and here is his dauther talking about ethnic grup of people who murdered him :
I don't care if it is popular subject in the world but you can't change facts.
/wiki/Helena_Wolińska-Brus
Wolińska was born in a Polish Jewish family in Warsaw,
Lt. Col. Helena Wolińska-Brus (1919-2008) (born as Fajga Mindla Danielak) was a military prosecutor in Poland with the rank of lieutenant-colonel (podpułkownik), involved in Stalinist regime show trials of the 1950s. She has been implicated in the arrest - and in some cases death - of key figures in Poland's anti-Nazi resistance.
It wasn't mith ... and I am not accusing anny ethnic group.
As to WWII: /wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust
Polish Jews were the primary victims of the German Nazi-organized Holocaust. Throughout the German occupation of Poland, many Polish gentiles - at great risk to themselves and their families - rescued Jews from the Nazis. Evidence indicates there were more Polish rescuers than people from any other nation.[1]
As to Germans: /wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939-1945)
Over 6 million Polish citizens - nearly 21.4% of the pre-war population of the Second Polish Republic - died between 1939 and 1945.[64] Over 90% of the death toll involved non-military losses, as most civilians were targets of various deliberate actions by the Germans and Soviets.[64]
Both occupiers wanted not only to gain Polish territory, but also to destroy Polish culture and the Polish nation as a whole
Losses by ethnic group were 3,100,000 Jews; 2,000,000 ethnic Poles
Nothing makes your responisiblity for ethnic Poles killed lower.
Wrong, Harry. It depends when it happened. At the beginning of the war Germans would even emptied the whole city building and shoot people on the street just as example to others. After Stalingrad they might "just" shoot caught Jew and one Pole directly involved. Those were basically individual calls.
As noted before, perhaps you could provide even a single reliable source for that. The 'best' source for information as to who was shot by whom are the interviews with members of Police 101, as quoted extensively in "Hitler's willing executioners" and "Ordinary men". Neither talk of whole families being shot. Indeed both speak of fathers being told to either surrender childern who hid Jews so they could be shot or being shot themselves.
It is completely wrong to portray NSZ as an organisation which existed solely to kill Jews. However it is beyond doubt (even contemporary nazi reports confirm) that the NSZ did organise Jew hunts and that they were not fussy about whether the Jews they killed were Soviet collaborators/supporters or not.
Let me ask you again, moral judges of Poles, would YOU risk your children lives to save a Jew?
Good question. And one I'm glad I'll never have to answer.
But I can answer one question for you: would I factor in a person's race/colour/creed/ethnicity/sexuality/origin when deciding whether to help them? Never. Humans are humans.
Isn't it organisation which lebrated concentration camp i Czech rep. (after fight with hevy losses) ?
I have no idea (although I'd welcome some links about that if you have any because I'm researching them right now for my next research trip for my next book).
But if they were, does that excuse their spring Jew hunts? Or explain why they shot Jewish children?
"In the fight against the Nazis again on May 5, 1945 in Bohemia, where the NSZ brigade liberated female prisoners from a concentration camp in Holiszowo, including 280 Jewish prisoners. The brigade suffered heavy casualties."
Out of the Inferno: Poles Remember the Holocaust edited by Richard Lukas, pg 22.
Yes, but now we are talking about not NSZ but Brygada Świętokrzyska, i.e. the same men who had collaborated with the Nazis in order to escape from the Red Army!
We can debate about this small brigade ... and their engagement. Finaly they weren't shot in the head or hanged by some of communistic (not all Jews were commies) Holocaust survivors or NKVD which murdered or imprisoned most of anti-Nazi resistance members in Poland....
Like for example Żegota members :en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Żegota
"Żegota" ( [ʐˈɡɔt̪a] (help·info)), also known as the "Konrad Żegota Committee,"[1] was a codename for the Council to Aid Jews (Rada Pomocy Żydom), an underground organization in German-occupied Poland from 1942 to 1945.
It operated under the auspices of the Polish Government in Exile through the Government Delegation for Poland, in Warsaw. Żegota's express purpose was to aid the country's Jews and find places of safety for them in occupied Poland. Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where there existed such a dedicated secret organization
Yes it is true... most of them was imprisoned or murdered after the war ...
Polish hatred towards Jews...
Well we already know all stereotypes. Now going back to responsibility.
Jews aren't responsible for their guards or collaborators. Jews were victims of Nazi Germany. Poles were victimes of Nazi Germany and Soviets ...
Life of 2 000 000 people killed by Germans isn't worth less than 3 000 000 Jews killed by Germans.
Let me ask you again, moral judges of Poles, would YOU risk your children lives to save a Jew?
It was a hard decision, especially that every neighbour of yours could be an informer, for financial gratification or out of malice. Did you read Medaliony excerpt above? Why does nobody help the wounded Jewish woman? There wasn`t any SS, gestapo or blue police around the site for many hours.
People weren`t scared of Germans as much as they were scared of each other. And that is the greatest reason why so few Jews were rescued from Holocaust in Poland.
As for answering your question, nobody knows what they would do in such a situation. But knowing my compassionate nature, I suppose I wouldn`t be able to refuse help. With God`s guidance, everything would end happily.
But I can answer one question for you: would I factor in a person's race/colour/creed/ethnicity/sexuality/origin when deciding whether to help them? Never.
And I am with you here. I deeply don't give a sh!te what colour a person is or what s/he believes in.
If I could help, most likely I would (honestly I don't know).
BUT, if there's a most likely certain death waiting for me, my children and few neighbours for even speaking to a wanted person, I KNOW I would not spend a second trying to help.
Am I a coward? Perhaps. Am I guilty of doing nothing? Sure.
But get this: I am alive, me and my family survived, so you can go and fvck yourself with your stupid accusation of 'Poles didn't do enough', or 'not enough Poles died', or 'Poles are guilty of complicity'. Wear my shoes first, dumbsh!t and then speak out
[ not to you personally, Harry, no, just generalizing here and reaching out to all those moral fvcking jugdes of this world who condemn the Poles because of what happened during the ww2 ]
LAGirl you prolly have no idea where the jews come from. I say Poles and Jews are matched in smarts. They are pretty much equals. I'm Polish and I am way smarter than the average American. Poles are smart. That's the bottom line. So are Jews. We got it in our genes :D
If I could help, most likely I would (honestly I don't know).
This statement is very true, we have all had this discussion at some stage in our lives. And the truth is we will never know until we are in this position, and I truly hope none of us ever are.
Aagain you all just jealouse because they are smarter then the Poles.admit it.
Perhaps rephrasing this would be a good idea?. Let me attempt, It appears that people of the Jewish faith worship knowledge and there must be real pressure on their youth to study, go to University and do good business and make lots of money.
Sure didn't the King of Poland, all those hundreds of years ago, invite over a load of Jews to do the banking and business because they were so well educated at these things?.
It appears Jews studied hard and remained a people without a country for so long because of their persistence and belief. Perhaps a bit like when Poland did not exist for 150 years, but the people believed it did. But personally I think a bit more diplomatic integration would have been good, how? I hear you ask, I haven't got the foggiest. The Polish people I have met certainly do not hate Jews, why would they?.
It appears to me that Jews fled persecution from all over Europe and settled here, in Poland, very well then the German Nazis came and changed all that, set up death camps killing Poles and people of the Jewish faith.
Now people remember Jews being killed in Poland, well come over and see for yourselves. There is a fantastic Jewish festival in Krakow each year, celebrating everything Jewish.
Here again. Whenever there is something about Jews or Isreal, their supporters start to talk about what happened in WW2. Plsease, there are many people died in that war, Jews are not the only who suffered, what about the Chinese, they were as well tortured and killed by the Jap by millions. So should we start to talk about this when someone critised China on human right issues? What is going on in Palestan is the reason why people don't like Jews today, nothing about WW2. I am very sorry about what happened to them during Nazi era, but that's the past and stop using it to cover those crimes they are commiting right now. Not only Polish, anyone who believe in peace will hate Jews!
What is going on in Palestan is the reason why people don't like Jews today
Although you have a valid point I would not have made this statement. What is going on in Palestine is the reason why people don't like Israel today. I do see a difference, do you?.
Although you have a valid point I would not have made this statement.
It paves the way for anti-semitism, after all the Jews residing in Europe and the US are widely seen as supporters of Israel (even as the opinions are split on that between themselves).
And especially in the case of the US people know that Israel and jewish Americans lead the White House by the noose - hence anti-jewish feelings, not only anti-Israel feelings!
haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1090367.html
...Israel's only real existential danger is losing U.S. support. Yes, there is no Israel without America - not only the $3 billion annual defense aid (without which the IDF would be a shadow of itself), or the market for one-third of Israeli exports, but also international support. Israel, which has become a leper in many circles, is lost without Washington's sponsorship. There is no alternative superpower - having Micronesia alone on our side at the UN will not get us very far. ...
....nobody likes 5th columns in their countries...especially not such influential ones!
Right. That's why they do not allow those refugees to come back to their homes and this is 1 of the main issue that can't be solved. If they do so, as they should, there will be more Arabs in Isreal, and it will not be a Jewish state any more.
am I right that this issue because Isreal insisit to be a Jewish state and can't tolerate high population of Arabs in the country??
Possibly, I do not know enough on the subject but it does appear that the Israelis were too heavy handed bombing Palestinian civilians. But this thread is about "Polish hatred towards Jews...".
I would like to comment on something I said earlier
What i meant about diplomatic integration, is that with the Jews having been invited over, given special privileges and being so good at making business due to studying.
That perhaps, the indigenous population (Polish) could have felt jealousy at another tribe or people making money, even though it was through work and organisation.
And through hard times this would manifest itself into something stronger. This could have led to resentment? Jews were heavely involved in Banking (again great business). Also banking in those days was not much different from now and are we not all mad at the banks these days? Now imagine today the bankers were all members of a specific group, it would not be hard to see how people could hate them. Well this is all hear say conjecture but I am interested to hear your thoughts.
The way demographics are going, it won't be long before Israel is no longer a Jewish state.
You might want to compare the number of Arabs in Israel to the number of Jews in Arabic countries. And the number of Jews who were forced to leave their homes in the Arab world from 1948 onwards....
Harry, Do you think that the Jews through their hard educational ethic and being bankers historically has led people to resentment them?. I am asking you because you seem more versed in this subject.
