"I was more afraid of fellow Poles than Nazi German Officers", says Bartoszewski

Common knowledge but not knowledge that is commonly referred to or acknowledged as true.


You mean like the people who insist that all Poles behaved perfectly in WWII and not a single one ever did anything bad?


Poland's highest decoration doesn't say much about human quality? Got a drawer full of them yourself have you?

Question is, when was that boundary crossed? To understand the words behind the man one has to know a bit about his past where the real clue lies as well as present. Remember his famous speech in Knesset? Enough said.


Not so many were released after only few months there either, guess who's among those lucky few?

But he does have three honourary doctorates, including one from Warsaw U.

Which doesn't make him a professor.

Lech Wałęsa has two honourary doctorates, he gave a lot of lectures around the world,
but somehow nobody calls him a "professor" :)

Nie chcom - ale powinnom.

Lying ? No, I think that he said the truth. I just think that he should not be saying that for Die Weld, or other foreign newspaper, not the way he talks.


I imply only that I have stated my point of view. You may like it or not, agree or disagree, but ask me to prove it?

I say that there is anti-polish bias in western newspapers,I know that from years of observation and reading, I have never collected any material just to prove that to somebody or to prepare a case in court,You can take it or leave it!

But it is. I remember my grandmother telling me that when Home Army shot a German officer,
people would just shrug their shoulders thinking that AK were just doing their job (unless the
officer was a prominent one like Kutschera), but when AK shot a local collaborator, people
would dance with joy. Szmalcownicy and other collaborators were seen as much worse danger
than occupying Germans and also were hated and despised more (as they were our own who
went bad and betrayed their own people.) Common knowledge. I don't know what all the fuss
is about.


W tym temacie, że tak, prawda, powiem jestem za a nawet przeciw, bo nie otake Polske żem walczyłem.

So why are people here talking about 'rewriting history'? And why is the loony right up in arms about this?

It's much the same when it comes to Jan Gross.


Third time's the charm.

Or at least it would be if it weren't for the fact that Lech has about 30 hon docs.

Good man! I thought it was only UMK and UG ones that he got. I will refer to him as "professor
Wałęsa" from now on :)

* Alliance College, Pennsylvania – 1981
* Columbia University – 1981
* Catholic University, Louvain – 1981
* MacMurray College, Illinois – 1982
* University of Notre Dame – 1982
* Providence College – 1981
* St. Senis University, Paris – 1982
* Seton Hall University – 1982
* L'Université de Paris – 1983
* Harvard University – 1983
* Fordham University – 1984
* University of Dundee, Scotland – 1984
* McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada – 1989
* Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, Canada – 1989
* Gdansk University – 1990
* Copernicus University, Torun, Poland – 1990
* Connecticut State University – 1996
* Universidad Anahuac del Sur, Mexico City – 1996
* Universidad del San Salvador, Buenos Aires – 1997
* Universidad de Mendoza, Mendoza – 1997
* Korea University (hon. prof.)
* Seul – 1997
* Meiji University, Tokyo – 1997
* Westminster College, Fulton, Missouri – 1998
* Lynn University, Miami – 1998
* Gannon University, Erie, Pennsylvania – 1999
* University of Hawaii, Manoa/Honolulu – 1999
* Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon
* Middlebury College, Vermont – 2000
* University of Oregon, Eugene – 2001
* Pontificia Universidad Católica Madre y Maestra, Santiago de los Caballeros, Dominican Republic – 2001
* Saint Ambrose University, Davenport, Iowa – 2001
* Ramapo College of New Jersey, Mahwah, NJ – 2001
* University of North Carolina at Charlotte, NC – 2002.
* Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières, Canada – 2005

And to go with that lot:
* Medal of Merit of the Polish American Congress, 1981[5]
* Nobel Prize, 1983[49]
* International Democracy Award, 1982[5]
* Social Justice Award, 1983[5]
* American Friendship Medal, 1983[5]
* Humanitarian Public Service Medal, 1984[5]
* Pro Fide et Patria Medal, Poland, 1985[5]
* International Integrity Award, 1986[5]
* Liberty Medal, 1989[5][50]
* Countries of Europe Human Rights Prize, 1989[5]
* Presidential Medal of Freedom, 1989[5]
* George Meany Human Rights Award, 1989[5]
* 1st class Order of Francisco de Miranda, 1989[5]
* Honorary Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, 1991[5]
* Grand Cross of Legion of Honour, 1991[5]
* Grand Order of Merit, Italy, 1991[5]
* Cavaliere di Gran Corce decorato di Gran Cordone, Italy 1991[5]
* Honorary Citizen of London, 1991[5]
* Grand Sash of Order of Leopold, 1991[5]
* Order of H.H. Pius XII[5]
* Order of Merit of Federal Republic of Germany[5]
* Order al Merito of Republic of Chile[5]
* National Order of the Southern Cross, Brazil[5]
* Grand Cross of the Order of the Cross of Terra Mariana of Estonia[5]
* Medal of Independence of the Republic of Turkey[5]
* Military Order of St. James with Swords, Portugal[5]
* Order of Henry of Portugal[5]
* Order of Korea[5]
* Order of the Netherlands Lion of the Netherlands[5]
* Medal of Republic of Uruguay[5]
* Medal UNESCO[5]
* Grand Colar da Ordem da Libertad[5]
* Grand Cross Knight of the Order of Polonia Restituta, 1992 (ex officio)[5]
* Knight of Order of White Eagle, Poland, 1992 (ex officio)[5]
* Commander Grand Cross of the Order of the White Rose, Finland, 1993[5]
* Knight of the Swedish Order of the Seraphim, 1993[5]
* Knight of the Danish Order of the Elephant, 1993[5]
* Grand Cross of Order of Merit, Republic Hungary, 1994[5]
* Path for Peace Award, Apostolic Nuncio to the United Nations, 1996[5]
* Freedom Medal of National Endowment for Democracy, Washington, 1999[5]
* International Freedom Award, Memphis, 1999[5]
* Grand Cross of the Order of the White Lion, Czech Republic, 1999[5]
* Pacem in Terris Award, 2001
* Gran Gruz Placa de Oro de la Orden Heraldica do Cristobal Colon, Republica Dominicana, 2001.[5]
* One of A Different View's 15 Champions of World Democracy, 2008
* Legion of Liberty (IPEA).[59]
* Northeastern Illinois University named a campus building Lech Walesa Hall (2009).

No doubt Ironside thinks that this is just more proof that Walesa is an utter ****.

They're idiots.


I'm the loony right and I'm not at all up in arms about this, so it must be just loonies :)


I only read "Strach" by Gross and didn't find anything "sensational" there, but I've heard
that books by Engelking and Grabowski are more reliable when it comes to sources (as
I am not a historian I can't judge properly if this is true or not)...

Dwie nowe książki Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów

Gross is writing a fiction disguised as a history. That is the only reason that peeps are pissed off!]

Funny too, given Ironside's own proclivity for nonsensical obscure references.

Is that why they didn't get invited to the victory parade?


Which reminds me, I really must get round to reading the Gross I bought (can't even remember which one it was!)

Nurse!

Bartoszewski was probably collaborating with Germans, no other explanation why he could be more afraid of Poles than Nazi Nation.

I suggest you shut your mouth after yesterday's thread about "White Brittons are racists" and completely misrepresenting the article. Butt out, matey, and let the intelligent part of PF discuss.

No one is saying that. I don't why you people keep saying that. It seems to be a common misunderstanding. No one in Poland denies that there were many collaborators. But still most people were not collaborators. Like in society there are evil people, there are greedy people, there are good people, and there are ordinary people who afraids to involve.


As for this German soldier, a member of my family also has a similar story to tell.

It is unfortunate, for such a supposedly distinguished person, to associate those stealing food with their nationality, not their hunger.

So you think Bartoszewski still suffers from this syndrome and that's why he blames other Poles? Is it possible after over 60 years? Quite possible: that kind of trauma probably stays with you for the rest of your life.

Hunger was not uncommon in Poland after and during WW2, but it was never as bad
as to force people to eat clothes, tableware and furniture. Of course, you may argue
that they stole it all to sell it and buy food, and you may be right, but stealing is still
stealing - and they were stealing from other Poles, who might have been equally destitute
and hungry as they were.

I think it's not fair to judge people so harshly for what they've done during WW2 sitting today comfortably in front of computer. I'm not excusing murder - which is still a murder no matter what - but other not very noble things people did in order to survive.

On the other hand it could be just his interpretation of witnessed events! why don't you ask him for profs alex?

I'm not judging anyone, but I am also against saying: "Oh, you know, it was war back then,
so they had to steal from their own, collaborate with Germans and turn against their own people".

Of course circumstances are important, but they don't justify everything.

Because I didn't ask you for proof (you will not find that word in what I wrote), merely a further elaboration of what you were claiming. There is a difference and I make the reasonable assumption that you are intelligent enough to know what it is.

If you can't do that, then I can only respond to you with the same eloquence with which you addressed me elsewhere today.

Indeed. At least the people who dug in the graves at Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor could legitimately say that the people who once owned those possessions no longer had any need for them.

Murder and collaboration is one thing, stealing food or robbing dead body is something else. Can't put today standards and peaceful times and compare them to brutal times of WW2.

True, damn those Poles at Treblinka!

Ironside, I appreciate the fact that you don't agree with his points of view ... that's your perogative. But dragging someone as distinguised as him down (although I have to agree he shouts quite a lot when you hear him on tele), is a little cheap. He's had more awards and honours than all of us who ever was on PF combined (times 10). He lived through the Warsaw uprising and, when I read the things he's done, has meant quite a lot for Poland.


Hmm ... I wish I could say that. The Dutch railwayworkers refused to take part in the April/May-strike of 1943. They striked from September 1944 until the liberation, when of course, "the damage had already been done"


I don't think the journalist had the intention to slander Poles. I read both interviews (and my German is pretty good, since I was born in Germany, raised (also) in German and lived there for several years) and I can't detect andy hidden agenda.


"Fortunately" the Dutch (even back then) grew tulip bulbs ... :-S

Oh,it must be the Trams Im thinking of in half remembered old footage then , yes,striking when you presume your country will be liberated in a matter of days (mad tuesday etc) is probably not in the same league as the earlier ones.


As "neutrally " british I'll post a link to show again it wasnt only Poles and jews suffering terribly at the hands of the nazis that winter.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Winter