Prices of apartments in Krakow are collapsing further down in 2010-2011

The average LTV is 93.5%, going up... Maybe your credit rating isn't very good?


Exactly. Analysis by Open Finance shows that a working couple earning the average Polish salary (not the average Krakow salary, which is higher) can afford to buy a 50m2 flat in Krakow and that this is rising, whereas a single person earning the average Polish salary can afford to buy 24m2 in Krakow. To me this sounds about right.

Good, so you agree with us. You are making finally many steps in the right direction.

inkrakow, LTV has NOTHING to do with how much you can use for mortgage monthly payment towards the bank, from YOUR TOTAL INCOME. 40% is the MAXIMUM allowed percent, and NOT 93 % ROTFL. Stay in your bench if you have no idea about how mortgages work.

Sean already pointed this out, but...


I've already told you - about 3300zl is the average brutto wage, netto about 2400zl or so. x 2 is 4800zl - and that's ignoring the somewhat well developed 'black' economy for trading of services.


There are small, functional apartments in many cities that can be bought for these people. They're maybe only 25-30sqm, but they do the job for a first time buyer couple in such a case. And food is most certainly not expensive!


Who on earth on average wage is buying apartments for 450k when you can get a large-ish flat (3/4 rooms, 60-80sqm in a renovated communist-era block) for about 300k at the moment?

Professional people in Poland don't buy 'houses in the upper market' either, so the cost of them is irrelevant.


A pensioner also tends to live in a flat which they obtained during communist times, or lives in social housing. There's also plenty of pensioners out there who worked solely in Communist times and yet earns hard Zloty pension now - and these same pensioners are enjoying rather large pensions!

Again, pensioners aren't buying property, so what have they got to do with anything?


Show me a government which isn't? :)

Actually I think I may have been wrong.

They have just started selling appartments in the Wawel (an old building in the centre of Krakow). Needs a lick of paint and to be insulated but appartments are being sold for 48 000 - 80 000 pln! for 1000 metres square 15 bedroom apartments complete with gym, swimming pool and butler.


You are off your head.


hahahaha, there is just you and only you.


You are not right and to be honest, you are unequivocally the biggest multiple personality
poster I have ever seen. But hey, why let facts get in the way of your delusions and regret?

bubble bubble The Polish property bubble is fcuking insane.. I have friends in Poland with mortgages that are criminally high.. They bought at these prices because of all that spin and hype spread by free market dogs..The prices are going to crash and its going to be worse than Ireland. Anyone stating the opposite is a developer or a fool who has been bitten and is in major denial..How the prices went to such an extreme height defies logic but greed was a big big big player.

Toil and trouble.

But just being in Ireland during the crises does not make you an expert on Poland.

Or have you not had enough of bubbles?, that you want to leave Ireland after it has burst and come here to Poland to watch the next one? (according to you).

You haven't a clue what you are talking about.


Such a reputable source and the detail leaves nothing to the imagination.

CHF Swiss Franc mortgages play a large part of that problem, many borrowers bought in CHF when the Zloty was strong. It was never going to stay strong for a long time against an established currency like the CHF, so it weekend along with their property prices. Thats one hell of a situation to be in, most property owners need 20% equity just to cover the difference in order to pay off the foreign currency loan, add that to the fact that property prices have dropped and its a lose lose situation, no way out at all.

The mortgage brokers play a huge part in this, talking the talk to seal the deals, but intently missing the very vaild point that currency exchange rates fluctuat directly affect your monthly repayments.

Many banks are offering minimal payment schemes to limit the amount of reposessions.

It certainly depends on when you got your CHF mortgage.
Swiss dropped their interest rates (Q4 2008) and now the mortgage you pay is more or less the same as it was before the PLN was over valued.

Not to limit the number of repossessions, it's to limit the amount of sh!t which they find themselves in. I've got a good friend in Warsaw who has a mortgage which is currently in the region of 400,000zl (or at least the CHF equivalent of that amount) and is secured on a flat which would probably now sell for 250,000zl (the wisdom of getting a 110% CHF mortgage!). Even if the bank repossessed, they'd still be out by 150,000zl! What they want to do is keep people paying something, anything at all, rather than just saying "Here are the keys, flat's yours now mate".

When did he take out the mortgage in CHF?

Goldman Sacks say the Zloty is clearly under valued, the Zloty will rise again.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100002454/top-tip s-for-2010-courtesy-of-goldman-sachs/

Obviously prices in Krakow are ridiculously high in relation to wages and should come down. However, A report on all Europes markets said two things about Poland. First, there is massive pent up demand for property, there is a shortage of living space for the population and a lot of it is ****** communist era.

Second , even in the boom, the number of new builds were small compared to other countries - there isn't really that many new buildings for sell.

Another thing holding up prices is the Polish expat community in the UK, France and USA etc who can buy here even at the inflated prices.

I agree but I doubt it will get back to 3.3 against the Euro.


The examples given by some of the posters on these forums is ridiculous but it certainly does not represent the average price in Krakow.


Open Finance
open.pl/news/wieksze_mieszkanie_za_srednia_pensje.html

And remember they take the average wage from Poland and the apartment prices from Krakow, so it is still a bit off but I won't argue it too much :)


Developers here were quick to stop new projects over the next few years, just finishing what had already been started and not coming down in price.

Not to say there are not new developments but a couple of gear shifts down.
There are also not very attractive so called "high end" apartments that are not being moved or just over valued apartments but a quick comparison would have you out of the woods on that one.

June last year!

Crud. Worst time to have bought CHF.
I was tempted myself because of the overvalued Zloty.

If I remember correctly it was about 2 PLN to CHF at the time and now it is about 2.7 but I would have to search to find out the exact figures for June last year.

I'm going to argue with them and say that as long as Ukraine, Hungary and the Baltic States remain on edge of a great fall (and they are, there's no doubt about that) - then the Zloty is not overvalued.

If the Lat had devalued (and it still might - Latvia can't take any more shocks!), then it almost certainly would've taken the Kroon and Lita with it - with the Hyvrina and Forint going too. There's no way that the Zloty would stay where it is in such an eventuality - look at how people bailed out on the Zloty the second there was a hint of trouble in Eastern Europe.

More and more people are seeing the TRUTH.

People's Greed plus speculators' greed and blindness plus banks' greed

equals the biggest current bubble in real estate in Poland !

Prove it.
Back up your statements with facts.
Supply links to reliable sources.
Enough agreeing with yourself, time for some work on your behalf to backup your statements.

I have a friend in a developer in warsaw and she says they are selling sweet FA. They are trapped because the bank who funded the developnment will not let them drop the prices.

kowalski2007, also known as, Emil Kowalski, Claituslux, popw, Claritus sux, popwasser, Polsky, Specialpolak, special-Polak, Mcduff, Michaelas, Tadeausz2007, spimowitzss etc..etc.etc

More signals of real estate price stabilization

3rd December 2009

Recent transactions on the real estate market indicate that the trend of falling property prices is coming to an end.

According to data from the Association of Polish Banks (ZBP), in the largest cities, prices have even begun to rise.

“The stabilization of prices in Poland is already a fact. After dynamic changes in the first half of the year, a lack of fluctuations after Q2 is something new,” said Joanna Tomczyk, an analyst with redNet Consulting.

Przemysław Pączek from advisory firm ProDevelopment added, “The prices of flats have already reached their lowest levels.”

The data revealed by ZBP also show that property developers will commence construction of around 60-75 percent fewer residential estates than in the previous year.

“First they will want to sell what they are left with," said Pączek.

The average transaction prices in Warsaw amounted to zł.7,853 per sqm in Q3 of this year.

Source: Rzeczpospolita

Read and weep you sad, deluded person.

with all due respect AValon, the banks who did the survey "Association of Polish Banks (ZBP)"

Do have a motive to talk the market up because they are in deep doo doo. I do not care one way or the other because I do nto have any property in Poland. I would say look at who is spinning the story and also be wary of any body saying anything one way or the other.

"In Warsaw the price for new apartments fell by 15%, declining more than
secondary market units, as the boom in supply (a record 17,500 units delivered in
2008) outpaced weakening demand. Ober-Haus forecasts that 16,500 new units
will be delivered to Warsaw in 2009 which together with financial crisis may effect
in further price correction"
Source: Peter Gage Morris
Managing Director
Ober-Haus Real Estate Advisors

The artical I posted, cites 3 sources. And I suppose you are yet another alias of mbiernat who works at an accountants and cannot tell the difference between Pounds, zloty and euros.

I do not care about the real estate market in Poland as I do not have property there but I do have friends in developers who tell me nothing is moving. Absolutely nothing because people need loans and the banks are not lending on indvidual units.

It is an immotive debate as people have vested interests. If you have property you are on one side if you have none you are waiting for armmegeddon.

The truth is somewhere inbetween in my personal opinion. Property was over inflated and it needed to come down, I would say we have another year of slight falls to go.

From the same source.


PDF file from here
ober-haus.com/files/Short%20Real%20Estate%20Market%20Overview_Poland_1Q2009_.pdf


I am not sure if anyone is arguing with that.
But there is a guy on here that spams these forums, using an array of aliases, screaming CRASH! who hasn't a clue about real estate.

One or two or three or four or more years of price falls, after 20 years of ONLY PRICE RISES in Polish properties prices... ;)

So tell us, what do you do for a living?
Have you ever bought or sold real estate in Poland?
Are you screaming about a crash from some previous disappointment?
How do you keep up with all your user names? do you have them written down on a piece of paper beside you there at the computer.

You will probably do what you always do and log in with yet another user name, beifre this one is no longer a guest and make a brash statement with no back up etc... and your cycle continues...

If I knew someone with those symptoms I could section them under the mental health act ;)

This guy makes me laugh :)

Can't wait till I can buy a wing of the palace with my weeks wages here :D

Put me down for the west wing please, I'd like the river view.

SeanBM it is funny that each time I talk SPECIFICS, and exact numbers and figures, all you do is just flame personal attacks, ignoring the COLD HARD FACTS AND ALL STATISTICS AND ALL CLEAR ARGUMENTS THAT ARE SHOWING WITHOUT A DOUBT THE CRASH IN REAL ESTATE PRICES THAT WILL BE IN 2010 in all Poland

I dealt with 'your select section' taken out of context from Ober Haus to which you have no comeback I see, except for the same old negative opinionated uneducated failing statements.

What happened 20 years ago in Poland BOB? hey? And should prices now return to that of 20 years ago Bob?


You have no proof, no statistics that say this, no cold hard facts.
You are just pushing your own bias opinion.
Friday night and all, give it a break.

Whats the ratio between the population of Krakow and the amount of new developments?