What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

Maybe get in a plane and attack Nazi's? Even they were wondering where you were. When you declair war, you don't sit and wait and tell the ones under attack your on your way.

Russia and Germany's regimes were more brutal. I hear what you are saying, tho. My belief is, when dealing with an area that has several ethnic minorities, is to unite them on a federal level while letting them have their culture, which is a modern American way of thinking, I suppose. I think it helps ease tension.

America hasn't always been like this, I realize, but is leaning more toward this philosophy, recently.
Let them have their culture, their language, but not their amassing of weapons and nationhood. They are their own communities yet under one federal flag.

At the same time, they need guaranteed equal rights and federal protection so there isn't this paranoia and desire to arm oneself. It's up to the federal government to protect the rights of individuals in such a place.

Thats possibly the most sensible thing you have said on this forum

how about getting ready for war. its not a two minute thing you know. after all it took your lot long enough to come to the ball.

What makes you think that? I consider myself to be a moderate poster. I only examine areas I think are dubious and need looking into.

With what? Tell me about the air power of Britain in relation to the Germans in 1939. Give me some facts rather than journalism.


You're talking in you're normal woolly generalities again and being cavalier with the facts. Are you saying everyone who declares war should attack immediately regardless of capabilities? Be specific.

You are a moderate poster but your opinions are largely incomprehensible to me. I find many of them abrasive and struggle to understand where you are coming from to have formed such an understanding of the world.

Personally speaking, this is the first opinion you have epxressed that I have had some respect for, let alone agreed with

It's all fairdinkums

My entire life I have been around all kinds of people. People of European heritage, Scottish/English, Irish, Germans, French, Jewish, Polish, Czech, Italian, you name it. Russian. Jordanians went to my college. I went to college with Russian foreign exchange students who were all very nice. There's a huge latin american and asian community here too. The major cultural influence here is native american, tho, so I know a lot about their histories and culture, more so than other areas in the US.

When you live around people from all kinds of ethnic groups you learn a few things about what works and what does not. Maybe this is why you are struggling to understand?

Au contraire. I can confidently say that I have lived in far more multicultural environments than you and built a very different understanding of the world

That is so not true. You would need to experience this place to realize...

Which place do I need to experience to realise?

I believe Poland was keeping the Nazi's a wee bit busy and I also believe I posted Britain's air power not to far back. You cannot just say "Britain's air power" as Poland was fighting.


Due to Britain saying they were declairing war, yes. "Everyone" is not what I am saying. I really feel telling Poland dates and times they would be there with no intention of following through was very wrong.

Please use this link for Polish military and where they made a contribution.

This is off-topic...somewhere in the US west of the Mississippi river...

LA do?

Three days later and none of the Plastic Poles who claim to "defend Poland" have come to post about the disgraceful way that Poland betrayed her allies, the Ukrainians. I think that we now all know how to end all conversations about so-called 'Western betrayal'.

Here's how the conversation should go:
Plastic Pole: "You did nothing to help Poland! You didn't do enough in 1939 to help Poland and didn't do enough in 1945 either! You left us to be occupied by the Germans and then the Russians despite promising to help us! We helped you but you didn't help us! You betrayed us!"

Answer: "Twice as many British airmen died in the Warsaw Uprising as Polish airmen did in the battle of Britain so we did do something to help you. What exactly would you like us to have done in 1939 and why do you expect us to have helped you in 1945? We had no obligation to defend Poland against Russia and had no means to do so either."

PP: "You should have done more!"
A: "I said 'exactly what should we have done. And while you're thinking about that, tell me about Poland's betrayal of Ukraine in 1921. You signed a treaty under which the Ukrainians helped you fight off the invading Soviet army. Instead of helping them, as you were obliged to do and they had done for you, you signed a seperate peace deal with the Soviets. And then you stole half of Ukraine, threw their leaders in to internment camps and repressed the people. If Britain had followed the Polish example, Britain would have signed a peace deal with the Germans that gave half of Poland to the British and the British would then have set about replacing Polish language education with English language schools, excluding Poles from university education, converting Polish churches to Church of England ones or just destroying them and locking all the Poles who protested in a concentration camp. Wasn't your treatment of your allies just a little bit worse than the Polish treatment of their allies?"

PP: "...."

Polish and British air power was enough to beat the Germans in 1939? Is that what you're saying?


Britain specified "dates and times" when they would invade Germany? Can you provide a source for this bombshell?

We will never know. France had also said they would be assisting.


I already have but I will find it once more, just for u. :)

Don't get me wrong I don't blame just Britain, and maybe if Britain did react the way I feel they said they would, we may not have stopped the war. At this point in Poland most did not even know "NKVD" was killing and invading in the east.

If we dont know now, with all the facts at hand, how were we supposed to know then?


If Britain had done what you're suggesting it would definitely have stopped the war although not in the way you think. Quite the opposite in fact.

meaning?

Meaning Britain would have been wiped out militarily this would have led to an invasion of Britain by Germany. Simple. No Britain = no more war in Europe.

No she can't. Because she is lying. The Agreement of Mutual Assistance Between the United Kingdom and Poland (signed in London on 25 August 1939) makes no mention at all of any date on which British forces would arrive.

Now how's that for being optimistic


Your turn Harry.


euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/1939.htm[/quote]

Here we go again Harry and his lies. Must be nice when you can pick and choose, which statistics I will use to prove my point? You are comparing orange to apples here. Polish pilots participating in the Battle of Britain had hundreds of hours of flying time, had been well trained before the war, they had well developed fighting tactics and were flying in loose formations. Most of all they were fighter pilots flying fighter planes, while British and Polish volunteer pilots who flew few missions to aid Warsaw Uprising from Italy (suicide missions in my opinion), were bomber pilots flying heavy bomber planes. Flying deep into occupied territories without escort and overloaded with supplies. The route taken was heavily defended by the enemy. There were 14 planes participating in this mission 7 of them were British and 7 were Polish. The result was predictable, only 4 planes reached the drop zone and 5 planes all British crews were lost. This was a disaster so the operations were suspended. The Poles were continuing to exhort the pressure on the British to do something about this and it was decided that Polish RAF crews would resume the flights. As a result 7 more flights were made all Polish crews. On August 12th British finally repeal their decision not to let their own crews participate. For this we are grateful to all the brave pilots of RAF.

This was a case of too little too late and only done so to be used as propaganda tool and to show that it’s impossible for the Allies to have any kind of success but we give it a go anyway. It is all the fault of the Soviets you see; after all they refused to grant us the right to use their air fields. As for the uprising itself, well Allied troops were breaking through the Normandy defenses and the Red Army stops short of Praga (twelve miles short), the suburb on Warsaw's right bank. The Soviet air force abandons the skies over Warsaw to the Luftwaffe, for obvious reasons. The decisions made by both Allies and Soviets regarding the Warsaw Uprising (whether to help or not) was not guided by reason but by politics.

The Soviet refusal regarding the use of the air fields by the Allies for the purpose of providing aid to AK orchestrating the Warsaw uprising was the first time that global politics was being played between Soviets and western Allies to test whether or not the western Allies would keep their part of the bargain reached at Yalta conference. By doing so Stalin was not taking a huge risk (after all what could Allies possibly do to him at this point of the game), but knowing exact reaction of the Allies to the Soviet opposition proved to be priceless to Soviets. This turned out to be a lethal combination working against us Poles. It’s precisely this that prevented Allies from providing much needed support. Soviet governments’ refusal to use their air fields was just that, a test to see if Allies will uphold their part of the bargain reached at Yalta, which btw Allies seemed to pass with flying colors.

So you see, it’s not that you had “no obligation to defend Poland against the Russia” as you have put it, but you had obligation to Russia which you chose to uphold that prevented you from demanding the concessions from the Soviets to use the air fields and aid the city in its hour of need. You see Harry there was no will on your part to do anything about it, case closed.

Still waiting...


You fight wars with hardware not goodwill and intent. Can you understand that?

Maybe... Depending on when the confrontation occurred and if Roosevelt backed Churchill.


The prospect of fighting against the SU would not exist, because the SU would not exist if not for Lloyd George.

Be that as it may, there would be no fight with the SU if the British and Americans were united in facing down Uncle Joe in 1943 because the Wehrmacht was hardly beaten in 1943.

From what I have read on Yalta, it would appear that any such attempts to impose allied will on Stalin, were made by Churchill and dismissed by Roosevelt. Why then is Britain portrayed (by some) as the betrayer? Even if Chuchill had the desire to liberate Poland, he most certainly did not have the means, without US support. That is undeniable.

Why was Roosevelt so eager to placate Stalin? Maybe it was because courting Soviet support in the ongoing brutal conflict with Japan, was a more important objective than liberating Poland? Thus is the self-serving nature of International diplomacy.

Betrayal is a subjective notion, highlighted by the fact that it is defined differently in Polish and English.

Sorry I was checking out the job Avalon did on the site, by the way here's the aggreement. Check the site out.



Look at this part,

I have probably missunderstood the point you are trying to make but factually the Yalta conference took place in February 1945 some four months after the Warsaw Rising capitulation. So any western Allied landing rights on Soviet contolled air fields were an irrelevance by the time of the Yalta conference?

No immediate declaration of war mentioned.

Not even a mention of intended declaration of war.

Merely "support and assistance."

As has already been pointed out: you claimed that Britain told " Poland dates and times they would be there". The text you quote makes no mention at all of dates or times.


What's your point? The government of Poland did agree to the armistice (if you can call Germany's unconditional surrender that) and the peace treaty.


Me and my lies? What about your own lies?


Firstly, they were not volunteers. They were bomber pilots who had in the main been flying combat missions for several years and so had logged thousand of hours of combat flying time. And that they flew much more dangerous missions which had virtually no chance of success in order to directly support Poland says a certain something.


As a matter of historical fact, more planes were lost to Russian fire than to Nazi fire.
And why not mention the reason that there was no fighter escort? Might it be because the only airforce with fighters with that range was the USAAF and they decided not to bother risking their American arses? Obviously you can’t mention that, can’t dare to criticise the Americans and so shoot down your theory that the Brits are to blame for everything!


Which western leader wanted to just send planes anyway, even though Stalin had refused to let the bases be used? And which western leader said that “I do not consider it advantageous for me to join you in the proposed message to Uncle Joe”? Churchill wanted to just send planes anyway, Roosevelt wanted to appease Stalin. But again you can not mention that can you.


Liar. The Yalta conference was in 1945. The Warsaw Uprising was in 1944. Why do you even bother telling such pointless lies?


Well, that and the fact that the western airforce best equipped to resupply Warsaw made a grand total of one resupply mission.

I note that no Pole (Plastic or otherwise) has even a word to say about the despicable betrayal of Poland’s ally in 1921 and the disgraceful treatment Poles then meted out on their former allies. What a surprise.