What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

No...it's not the same!

In my What-if Hitler is just not interested in the whole EAST, that means the Sovietunion too. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact ist alive and well.

It's Hitler against the West, wanting and needing the East quiet and maybe even supportive.

How would Poles decide?
Would they risk war and destruction for GB?

In my opinion Hitler proposal I've presented was much better than this one presented by you. Western Ukraine and help in war against Soviets was much better than just peace and symphaty... Still this better than yours Hitlers proposal was rejected for many different reasons.

That isn't the point Lukasz...it isn't about who presents the best What-If scenario!

My point was to put the Poles in the british boots of that time!

Hitler had no beef with GB and even harbored sympathy...if it were for him there wouldn't had been any conflict with GB.

Now I turn the situation around and I would want to know what Poles think Poland would have done if they had been in that situation.

Yes, they had an alliance with GB, now GB is attacked and going under quickly,
Poland has to decide between peace and safety of their people and being destroyed if they attack the third Reich honoring their alliance!

What is it?

You present-if scenario was worst than real proposal made by Hitler for Poland... that is the point and this better proposal was rejected.


You know Germany in 1939 had such ideology ... but there is also european tradition.
In europe there is tradtion "beat the king" so when one of european powers is stronger and stronger others make aliance to beat "the king". For example in far east there is tradition of cooperating with "the king"...

but now we are in europe and Germany with whole contnental europe in hands wasn't in British business. (avoiding whole ideology of Nazi Germany).

You want to say.......?

I want to say that you can try to build different aliances to be the biggest power in europe but sooner or later other european powers are going to make aliance to beat you (in some way) ... even your proposals for some of them seem to be good if not perfect ... it is old tradtion.

Sympathy you could have said admiration BB thats more truthfull. Why or how was Hitler sympathetic?

My answer to your hyperthetical situation is nothing Poland would have done nothing except maybe voice disapproval. Most likely they would have kept their heads down and prayed they werent going to be next.

GB had something Hitler wanted too...an Empire sprawling the world!
He admired strength...he could have lived very well with a GB "ruling the waves" and the third Reich ruling the continent (for the time beeing at least).


....think so too!

Yes you can try to prove that Poland would have done exactly what her alies have done in 1945 but ... :)

Hitler gave Poland better proposal than just peace and symphaty.

Germany would establish a protectorate over the Baltic States (which at that time were still independent), Soviet Belorussia, Soviet Ukraine east of the Dniepr river, the Kuban region, and the Caucasus region. Poland would annex Soviet Ukraine up to the Dniepr river.

It was rejected. It is historical fact.

Yes and Poland was attacked in 1939 and got down immediately.

Now my WHAT IF has been what would possible happened IF Poland WOULDNT HAD BEEN ATTACKED BUT THE BRITISH ISLANDS!!!!
WITH HITLER HAVING NO INTEREST TO MAKING A MOVE TO THE EAST!
SO IT WOULD NOW THE QUESTION FOR THE POLES TO HONOR THEIR ALLIANCE OR NOT!

Manno...are you still hung over from the party Lukasz???

Lets play war games...


How? throught the sea?

No war games Lukasz...an easy question: Would had Poland honored their alliance even at the cost of their own destruction?

In your question there is war game with the result. Suggesting that Poles would be suicide warriors or traitors. Both show Poland in bad light. Asked for details you answer ... no war games.

Prince, it just shows how the National Socialists were...ruthless exploiters who wanted to cause wars on the continent for their own shameless profiteering. After doing some research on how they were financed, and by whom, it's no surprise. There was no real alliance with anyone. National Socialists would have signed some papers, then would have made Polish soldiers fight for Germany and put their lives on the line. I am sure that's what they would have done. Used Poles to fight the German wars which might have been why the proposal was made in the first place.

G'day mate - of course you can, and it's a very thought provoking hypothetical you've come up with.

I'll speculate and say yes. I'll assume that all the parameters for your hypothetical are the same except for the fact that GB has replaced Poland (even though you've put in some other variables that really change the substance and relevance of your hypothetical ie


Why do I say yes? Look at the military history of Poland and it's tradition of adhering to agreements and promises. Although old, Poniatowski's loyalty to Napoleon during the westward retreat and before Leipzig is exemplary and characteristic of the Polish attitude toward allies.

More recently and relevantly, look at the Polish contribution during WW2 when fighting under the auspices and command of the British. Despite being beaten, tens of thousands left Poland and fought under the British. Is there any reason why they wouldn't meaningfully assist the British, particularly when obliged to?

Poles remember their friends and allies (generalisation I know). I knew an old Pole a few years ago who spoke fondly of the Irish and Scots purely because a large volume of them travelled to and fought for Poland during the 1863 Insurrection. Odd isn't it?

Of course we're talking of a bygone era. I think Davies summed up the Polish ethos well in saying that to Poles, the way the game was played was more important than the winning or losing. I ascribe to that.

Okay...thank you!

a) Judging by the tone and length of your reply, the wind-up merchant has been wound up by his own thread. What a pity.
b) Not all Aussies are racists like you. I myself have an Australian passport but I am very able to pass up the chance to get a rise out of all races. And before you claim it, I am not a "Pom": I was not born in Britain, neither were either of my parents. I'll grant you that one of my grandparents was born in the UK but in Scotland to be exact. Does the racist term "Pom" include Scots? I thought it was only English.


Next you'll be telling us that the words 'Paki' and 'Nigger' are perfectly acceptable (of course they are to you) and not in the slightest bit racist. Your favourite word is one which is designed to, and used by you to, abuse people on the grounds of their race. Therefore it is racist and so are you.


The individual acts of courage and selflessness which were ordered by the British government?
How dare you Plastic Poles deny the sacrifice and even the existence of those airmen right up until you are provided with their names and current addresses?


Poland was Britain's first ally? I think you mean that it was the other way round. Or did Poland declare war on Germany in support of Britain? Did Poland provide a safe harbour for British forces which were running away from the Nazis even before the war started?


What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Stop fighting the Nazis and start fighting the Soviets? Yet again a Pole (to use the word in its loosest possible way) blames Britain for Poland's inability to free itself.


Who would they fight for? Nobody give enough of a shit to do anything to help Poland.


Wasn't Poland an ally of Austria and Germany in WWII? Right up until the moment that Austria and Germany lost that particular war and Poland abandoned two prone, vulnerable and essentially helpless friends. Before attacking one of those friends via thinly disguised 'citizens uprisings'.


What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Start WWIII? With what exactly? What army did the British have which could have freed Poland from Soviet occupation?


What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Start WWIII? With what exactly? What army did the British have which could have freed Poland from Soviet occupation? How about the Americans? What could they have done in 1945 to free Poland from Soviet occupation? Perhaps they had some mother of all bombs which could have been used to threaten the Soviets with? I wonder....


No need thanks. My grandfather was a Spitfire pilot and flew with Poles. My grandmother was an RAF nurse and treated Poles. Their stories about Poles in wartime and the Poles that they are still in touch with were one of the reasons I came to Poland. Why did you first come to Poland? Oh, sorry, I forgot that you are such a Plastic Pole that you have never even been to Poland.


I have never made any such reference. I have asked you when hunting Aborigines for sport became illegal in the Lucky Country. It's a question which you deal with in your normal way: ignore it and hope nobody notices.


Please keep the direct and overt racist abuse out of yours.


The person who brought racism to this thread was you.
I'm quite happy to call a female liar a liar when she lies. That is called sexual equality. I can understand that the concept is not one that you are familiar with.


You said that your grandfather was born in Poland but your father was born in Australia. Or was it that your father was born in Britain. Which would make you more of a "Pom" than me.


So you have no idea what could have been done. Might the reason be that nothing more could have been done? What a strange concept.


Please stop with the lies. Invites were issued to free Poles "a week or so" after news of the parade was announced.

geocities.com/skrzydla/Victory_parade.html (written by a Pole who says two lines later "every Englishman was a S.O.B. in our eyes").


Thanks for the concern but I do actually have a degree. One so good that when put on my CV it is more than good enough to get me employment at Polish universities teaching English writing.

Harry, does this mean you are a Plastic Brit? That's rich.

Wound up in the sense of a closure or in the emotional sense??

I think the only person getting their knickers in a knot is you. I'm waiting for the physical threats again Harry - go easy this time though.


I'm not going to stoop to your level of childish commentary Harry (BTW - is your surname by any chance "Highpants"). Please stop taunting me with these thunderous accusations. Please.


Who cares where you're from. The mystique surrounding your tantalising the forum by not telling us where you're from then saying you can hold many passports is lame.


Prove that the term Pom is racist, bearing in mind racism applies to 'race' (word to the wise: English is not a race, it's a nationaltiy). You can't because you are lying again. Again, please stop lying to make me look bad.

You're correct on that question that you knew the answer to anyway.


I won't be telling anyone that because it's not acceptable. On the other hand, you will continue to lie on this forum and tell people that I think those terms are acceptable because you are a liar. Please stop lying about me to make me look bad and you look good.


Yes, those acts. Good to see you chose to ignore the qualifying statement to my contention. Strange how you miss any opportunity to engage in debate. Do'h - I forgot. You can't debate - all you can do is Wiki some 'facts' and post them on the forum - big deal.

By the way, those airmen sometimes volunteered without permission from superiors, so, technically you're lying again when you say that those acts were ordered by HMG because not all of them were. Again, stop with the lies.


No, I don't mean it the other way around. It is interchangeable though, depending on the CONTEXT.

Please, give us the Wiki link you frantically searched info regarding Poles running to England before the war commenced. I'm in suspense.

Another word to the wise - be sure to give us the whole story because if you don't I'll simply track down the whole picture behind your skeleton facts and demonstrate again that you manipulate facts to suggest a negative picture of the Poles which, given your repetition of this theme, can only suggest spite and malice.


What is wrong with you. How on earth did you come up with such a response to my contention. It has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Please, fight for your negative beliefs against the Poles with more than just that old guff. Please don't tell me that if you can't find a mere fact to discredit an opinion you simply shrivel and start repeating a tired old question like...


and...


shall I keep going or end the misery?


It's just getting worse Harry. What are you on about, apart from having another spiteful stab at Poland because, yet again, you have no argument to make and no challenge to my contention.

The answer is whether they wished to continue to fight for the Poms, you knuckle dragger.


This is getting ridiculous. Please stop lying to everyone.

The answer is no (I just checked that on WIKI).

(BTW - I'm waiting for the obvious indignant response from you as I just followed your example of not replying to your full post by cherry picking a part of it to make you look like a goose).


So what? Oh, I get it, you're one of those types of people who says they can go around calling black people derogatory terms because they know a black person and that makes it ok or their grandad fought alongside a black person and that makes it ok. Lame - have some self respect.


Stop with the lies and deceit. I ignore these types of questions and hope that YOU don't notice.

I'm unaware of any aboriginal hunts in Australia. Perhaps you could tell me when it became unlawful. Please reference the Act and pertinent section as I'm curious. Please also cite these 'hunts'. You can try a great online search tool called Wiki. Be sure to start a thread in 'off topic lounge' though, as it's really got nothing to do with this thread, has it? If I don't join you in your very own thread, I'm sure others are just itching to tete a tete with you on such a great issue.

Like I said, you've raised the issues of the Aboriginals on this and another thread - why? I'm serious mate.


Oh geez! This is turning into the old chestnut of "I know you are, but what am I?"

Ok, I will just for you Harry. Promise you'll do as I asked too??


You got me.


Just as you are happy to harass and intimidate that same female by following her around in other threads and calling her a liar too eh. What a weird thing to do.

No, that is not sexual equality. Get a grip. Would you slap a female if she slapped you? By your definition, that's sexual equality too isn't it.

Grow a set and lay off the females on this forum.


No I didn't. My father was born in Lodz. My grandfather was born in Stanislawow. I was born in Australia. I have never been to Poland. Unlike you, I don't hold multiple passports. Unlike you, I don't feel a passport or physical location is a requisite to a nexus to a country.


The answer is what it is. Do you believe nothing more could have been done? Do you believe that the Brits should have informed the Poles that they were being sold out to the Russians without protest from Britain? Do you think it was fair that the Brits kept Poles in their ranks when they knew that they had sold the Poles out? Just some simple things that the Poms could have done, but didn't.


Norman Davies is lying then and so is the Sikorski Institute, who, if memory serves correctly, was his source. See Rising '44. I can't recall the page number but the index will help you.


Wow. I wish I had a degree that was 'so good'. What a goose you are.

Just had a mental picture of your job interview:

"Mr Highpants, I see in your CV you have a degree - what field does your degree relate to?"

"Well Professor Kowalski, it transcends any field because it is sooo goood.

"Boze - your hired!"

Hang on, didn't you proclaim you're an author? Forgot - that turned out to be a casual spot of journalism on the back page of some Warsaw rag. What next Harry?

Funny, that's exactly what you are about. Any chance to a take a dig at the English. You are a complete xenophobe, illustrated by your use of the following term:


Simply pathetic. But I wouldn't expect anything else. You are an embarrassment to the country to claim to represent.


Quite brilliant.

By your logic calling somebody from Pakistan a "Paki" is perfectly acceptable (it's not a race, it's a nationality). But of course we've long known that racist abuse is perfectly acceptable to you, now we know how you justify it to yourself. Just telling the truth is more than good enough to point out the problems with you, dear boy.


Got a source for that lie? Are you familiar with something called military discipline? Probably not: the concept of following orders is not one you'd be good at.


Here's a photograph of three Polish destroyers making a break for a British port before WWII started
I can't be bothered to do your research for you. Just google "Peking Plan" and read all about the pride of the Polish navy running to British ports before a single shot was fired.


Funny how I can ask a question three times but you still ignore it.


Quite right. A typographical error on my part. I should have said "Wasn't Poland an ally of Austria and Germany in WWI? Right up until the moment that Austria and Germany lost that particular war and Poland abandoned two prone, vulnerable and essentially helpless friends. Before attacking one of those friends via thinly disguised 'citizens uprisings'."

Still want to talk about how badly Britain behaved towards Poland? Seeing as how Poland had behaved worse to two allies just a couple of decades previously.


She lied about the fact that any British people died in combat in Poland during WWII. She promised to light candles on the graves of any who did. Then she disappeared leaving only her lies and insults.


No I wouldn't. I'd do exactly as I do if a man hits me: report it to the police and make sure he's prosecuted (makes the follow-up civil case much easier).


Hence the fact that you think you are Polish despite the facts that you have never been here, speak not a word of Polish, have no Polish passport and even call yourself "Ozi Dan".


My copy is at home. I'll check it tonight.
But you'll note that I've quoted a first-hand source and you have only said what you think somebody who can not have been a first-hand source said. See any difference there?


I've been writing professionally (as in being paid to do it) for more than a decade and spent two years doing it full-time. I'm good enough that publishers now come to me and commission text ranging from a couple of hundred words to tens of thousands of words. I'm currently working on a travel guide to Poland and contributing chapters on the Jewish community of Lubelski to another book. Thanks for asking.

What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

Happy meals,

Which ironically are neither "Happy" nor qualify as a "Meal".

na na nana na im loving it

You'd get better nourishment from eating the toy.

No, not at all. Please stop lying about me. Please stop obfuscating and address the issue, namely: prove the term Pom is racist. Can't, can you, because it's not.


Davies or Zamoyski. Go look.

Go Wiki too - I'm sure there'll be something.


I read the link you provided. You deliberately failed to mention the following from that article:

"As German-Polish relations worsened in late Aug 1939, Polish leaders and those from the Western Allies alike worried that, locked in the Baltic Sea, the small Polish Navy would be no match for the German Kriegsmarine,"

this,

"The ships made rendezvous with British Royal Navy ships at 1258 on 1 Sep"

and this,

"The three Polish ships served in the Royal Navy for the remainder of the war while all other ships of the Polish Navy were sunk or captured within days of the invasion."

(emphasis added)

Not only have you been shown up for a liar, but also a deceitful and manipulating charlatan.


The answer is no. By 1945 it was too late. You know that. Answer my questions and argue against my propositions unless you agree with them.


Answering questions with questions? How like you.

1. Poland wasn't an autonomous nation, so in essence couldn't abandon anyone. It didn't have a standing army or sovereignty.

2. To the best of my knowledge, Pilsudski and Haller served under both the Germans and Austrians. Their service was primarily to fight the Russians. There was no mutual understanding of loyalty and service to a common goal.

3. They both refused to swear allegiances to G/A and in Pilsudski's case, he was jailed for that.

4. Unlike Poland in WW2, G/A's weakness was of their own creation.

5. Unlike the contract between GB and Poland, the service of Polish units in the G/A armies was a means to an end and an historical abberation.

6 Unlike GB, the Poles did not smile in the face of G/A and knife their backs.

7. Unlike GB/PL, PL and G/A were not friends at that juncture, were they?


I just want to tell the truth and keep destroying your credibility on this forum.


You too have lied and deceived and you have been exposed. Place flowers on the nearest grave of Polish soldiers where you live in Warsaw.

BTW - I recall from another thread this person asking you for a gravesite or something and you providing a link or information to that end? Am I correct in the general sense?


I am half Polish but all slavic in my genetic make up. I identify strongly with Poland and I am conscious of my heritage. I don't need to be a Polish citizen to be able to identify as being part of a Polish tradition or to come on this forum and defend Poland and Australia against people like you.

At least I'm honest with my background and agenda. You should try a bit of candour too.


Yes - academia shuns the use of internet based resources and accepts hard copy textual sources.

Given you said you had a degree, you would know about bibliographies, referencing and attitude to internet sources unless they are say government based?

BTW - if memory serves correctly, didn't you get up Lukasz some months ago in another thread for him relying on an internet source over you quoting Davies whose source was the American Congress Library? Just curious.

I'm still waiting on any challenge or response to my contentions. They are easily idenitifiable as I posted them in CAPITAL LETTERS.


Am I angering you? I can sense that and that fills me some pleasure given that you are such a dill and a toe rag.

The thing is I really couldn't care less about what you think. Tally Ho numb nuts - Harry's coat tails await.

Do you have names as I would love to see your work?


;)

You confuse anger with pity. I have come across enough xenophobes, not to let it bother me. Your Pomgolian rant just made you look like a sad bitter fool, why should I care? It does amuse me that you are trying to fight the 'moral cause' for a country you can't even be bothered to visit. Tally ho and all that ;)

Still, you have got what you want from this thread. Well done.

And I would prefer it if you didn't misquote me. I have never made comments regarding lighting candles on graves.

That is all.

Maybe the reason we fight for this "moral cause" is because we had our country taken over and were betrayed. You make it sound as if no time has passed. Has it occured to you we have homes, family and new lives set up in another country?

It is a term of abuse used to describe a particular race. Have you ever heard a British person call themself a "Pom"? No, because it is a term of abuse. You're just too racist to be able to face up to the fact that you are a racist.


You are making the claim: you back it up.


I said that Polish forces were running away from the Germans before the start of WWII. This is a fact proven by the wikipedia page you quote from. Funny how you didn't bother to quote the bit about then the dash for British ports was ordered and begun. Let me point it out for you:

"On 29 August the fleet received the signal "Peking, Peking, Peking" from the Polish Commander-in-Chief, Marshall Śmigły-Rydz: "Execute Peking". At 1255 the ships received the signal via signal flags or radio from the signal tower at Oksywie, the respective captains of the ships opened the envelopes, and departed at 1415 under the command of Lieutenant Commander Roman Stankiewicz."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Plan

Note how the order was given and followed before the attack on Gliwice radio tower?

Your selective quoting proves that I am telling the truth and that the deceitful and manipulating charlatan is in fact you.


No, Poles just fought against Germany at the first possible opportunity.


Friends? What had Poland ever done for the UK?


Like you do about the Peking Plan? Good work Champ.


The graves in my neighbourhood are not of Polish soldiers: they are the graves of Jewish civilians who fought to the death while the heroes of the AK, with a few honourable exceptions, bravely twiddled their thumbs.


No. The liar declared that no Brits had died in combat in Poland and persisted with her lies until I gave the names and exact location of some Brits who died fighting for the Warsaw Uprising.


You came here (to this thread) to do nothing more indulge than your favourite habit of race baiting. How unfortunate for you that you weren't born 100 years ago here in Poland: if you had, you wouldn't need to post in internet forums, you could take part in the pogroms you would have fitted in so well with.

You are nothing more than a disgrace to both the nations you claim to defend.

Are you drinking this early in the AM Harry?