Some Brits are so clueless is hysterical.
I forgot I was typing to a man that still believes in Queens and fairy tales, opps the truth is out. Do I make fun of your country?
See some things are ok to make jokes about.
What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?
I forgot I was typing to a man that still believes in Queens and fairy tales, opps the truth is out. Do I make fun of your country?
See some things are ok to make jokes about.
It's better that you stop embarrassing yourself and your country. Ask Harry to recommend you some reading material on British history. You are lacking big time.
We've lost a few, but when it mattered.....well, modesty forbids me from finishing the sentence.
Bzibzioh
4 Dec 2008 / #303
Do you actually think before you say things?
Do you?
Poland is one of those annoying insignificant little fuks. One that still thinks it knows best. Fukin twats.
And knowing best would annoy you obviously.LOL
Very sensible of you, given that your first is largely useless
Tell that to people even on this forum who are trying hard to learn.
We've lost a few, but when it mattered.....well
What no funny joke about them?
What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?
Bzibzioh
4 Dec 2008 / #305
Kilkline:
We've lost a few, but when it mattered.....well
What no funny joke about them?
We've lost a few, but when it mattered.....well
What no funny joke about them?
How do you invade Poland?
You march in backwards and tell them you are leaving.
You march in backwards and tell them you are leaving.
I would not hope for much from him. Some recycled stuff at best.
What I question is what if all three, France, Britain and Poland did all jointly attack
Thus starting a war with the industrial superpower of Europe.
could the world war be avoided?
Er... no, they would have been starting it.
I was asking not to offend but to hear your view
Have you ever heard the phrase 'Ask a stupid question...'
Bzib and Celinski.
A serious question. Have you ever studied history? I mean at a proper (degree) level? Rather than listening to stories whilst sitting on grandpa's knee.
I would not hope for much from him.
It is rather sad, I would hope after all this time others could at the least reccognize the price paid by Poland's people. What the Polish people did for others, and the strength of our people. Look how sensitive people can be when it comes to the "Holocaust" and yet feel it's acceptable to make jokes about the forgotten Polish. Tonight is, "Scream Bloody Murder".
CNN) -- They share a deep sorrow: an idealistic American who tried to protect the Kurds of Iraq, a Canadian general who refused to follow orders in Rwanda, a French priest who fought for the soul of Cambodia.
CNN's Christiane Amanpour traveled to the killing fields of Europe, Africa and Asia for "Scream Bloody Murder."
more photos » Each one tried to focus the world's attention on the world's most heinous crime: genocide. Each time, they were shunned, ignored or told it was someone else's problem.
To understand why, CNN's Christiane Amanpour traveled to the killing fields of Europe, Africa and Asia for a two-hour documentary, "Scream Bloody Murder."
CNN's Christiane Amanpour traveled to the killing fields of Europe, Africa and Asia for "Scream Bloody Murder."
more photos » Each one tried to focus the world's attention on the world's most heinous crime: genocide. Each time, they were shunned, ignored or told it was someone else's problem.
To understand why, CNN's Christiane Amanpour traveled to the killing fields of Europe, Africa and Asia for a two-hour documentary, "Scream Bloody Murder."
cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/20/sbm.overview/index.html
Thus starting a war with the industrial superpower of Europe.
You can hardly call 1933 Germany an industrial superpower...
If France and Englands presidents would have been blessed with half the balls and foresight of Pilsudski, they would have invaded Germany and disbanded the Nazi party, perhaps stage an assassination of Hitler and some of his brass, and supported the re-creation of a centrist-socialist govermnent, as well as provide financial assistance to the country while it got up on its own two feet.
The Nazi popular vote was still quite low at the time, and the later numbers became manipulated and distorted. There isn't any doubt that the majority of Germans were still leaning towards a socialist govermnent in 1932-33.There were already signs of what was to come if one was to look closely, but the allies were too busy later with their policy of appeasement to bother. Pilsudski's dies, and the rest is history.
Thus starting a war with the industrial superpower of Europe.
I should read, Nazi's and Soviet's attacked Poland, remember?
What no funny joke about them?
Who?
What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?
You never had a war or struggle for others. I believe this point has been established.
It is rather sad, I would hope after all this time others could at the least reccognize the price paid by Poland's people. What the Polish people did for others, and the strength of our people.
Poland indeed paid a heavy price but it was a price they paid for no one but themselves. They went to war for no one but themselves.
In short, they did fuk all for anyone.
... and you've donated to this forum, why?
Why do you even post here, tosser?
Why do you even post here, tosser?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #312
Erm...and what about the Germans???
Poles really seem to rule the realms of misty, glorious but empty phrases...but when you ask for clarification and hard facts then...
What the Polish people did for others, and the strength of our people.
Poles really seem to rule the realms of misty, glorious but empty phrases...but when you ask for clarification and hard facts then...
Rightio.
That is generally how foreign policy works. I simply love this notion that the Poles fought for Britain. I would find it quite funny if so many deluded tw*ts didn't actually believe it.
Poland indeed paid a heavy price but it was a price they paid for no one but themselves. They went to war for no one but themselves.
That is generally how foreign policy works. I simply love this notion that the Poles fought for Britain. I would find it quite funny if so many deluded tw*ts didn't actually believe it.
and what about the Germans???
Bratwurst, are you in denial that the majority of Germans were still centrist-socialist at this time? The numbers after Hitler combines chancellor-president offices in 1933, are distorted. In fact, I even doubt Hitler had popular vote until 1934 or 1935. Communist party still held a lot of seats until Hitler outlawed them, and there were many powerful monarchists in the backdrop too.
They went to war for no one but themselves.
I would find it quite funny if so many deluded tw*ts didn't actually believe it.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #316
Bratwurst, are you in denial that the majority of Germans were still centrist-socialist at this time?
At least one third was firmly in the NSDAP camp and you can BET that these numbers would have doubled, tripled and grown even more the moment foreign invaders made Hitler a martyr murdered fighting for german freedom and independence...
Boy...every politician who would want have one inkling of acceptance would need to come from the armed resistance from the underground during the guerilla war which would undoubtly follow with hot contacts between them and Moskau.
Stalin surely knowing a distracted Poland would be easy prey...
PS: And where from should the money come to "help Germany onto her feet"??? From Poland???
PPS: wait...you didn't mention Poland...only France and GB...sorry....my fault...again France and GB should get Polands nuts out of the fire....again...as it wasn't GB or France so much where Hitler had laid his eyes on...
In short, they did fuk all for anyone.
Look, I was in partial agreement with you guys over Poland caring more for a free Poland, than anything else, and in fact, this is a normal sentiment, is it not?
But to deny that they did not at least help along the wars final outcome and the well-being of the allies (the latter being involuntary, in some cases) is quite an ignorant affirmation. Polish free forces were one of the largest, and they fought everywhere, from Italy to the Netherlands, to North Africa, and yes, FOR THEIR OWN country.
The Polish armed forces in the west fought under the British command and numbered 195,000 in March 1944 and 165,000 at the end of that year, including about 20,000 personnel in the Polish Air Force and 3,000 in the Polish Navy.
England may have had the industry to match Germany later in the war, but they surely did not have the man power to man their machines.
You would be either a liar, or mentally challenged to state that Poland did 'fuk all for anyone.'
I could direct you to a few grave sites in Italy or the Netherlands if you want, and you can go visit my relatives. I'm sure they didn't think their efforts were aimed at only a free Poland.
A few of the battles Polish forces took part in:
British campaign in Norway (Battle of Narvik)
French Campaign
Battle of Britain
Battle of the Atlantic
Battle of Tobruk
Operation Jubilee (Battle of Dieppe)
Battle of Lenino
Battle of Normandy (D-Day)
Battle of Monte Cassino
Battle of Falaise
Operation Market Garden (Battle of Arnhem: "A Bridge Too Far")
Battle of Ancona
Battle of Bologna
Battle of Berlin
Prague Offensive
Polish underground actions:
Operation Tempest (Burza)
Operation Ostra Brama
Lwów Uprising
Warsaw Uprising
At least one third was firmly in the NSDAP camp and you can BET that these numbers
After Hindenburg appointed Bruning as chancellor, he called an election to consolidate his government, and Nazi vote was still only 18.3% at the time.
The earlier the allies would have fully supported the Weimar, perhaps not even militarily, the better it would have been for everyone. The problem is that no one really saw Hitler as a threat until it was too late. Anyway, an assassination could have easily been organized secretly between the radical communists. Communists then could have been put to the stake for their involvement in such an assassination by the Weimar Republic.
Stalin surely knowing a distracted Poland would be easy prey...
As well as Germany.
When the Second World War broke out, it was Stalin's plan to claim neutrality. His idea was that if all the countries of the world went to war with Germany, by the end of the war, each would become financially and politically exhausted. Russia, having been at peace the entire time, would inevitably rise as the greatest power in the world and dominate above capitalism. However, even Stalin could not ignore Hitler's advances into the USSR and other parts of Europe - the Nazi plan of domination intimidated and threatened that of Stalin's. It was then that Russia became involved in the war.
In November 1943 at the Teheran Conference, Stalin announced his ideas for postwar Germany. Following the war, Stalin wanted to occupy, demilitarize, and dismember Germany, abolish its officer corps, and force the payment of reparations. Throughout the late 1940s, Stalin believed that Germany would recover and generate yet another world war.
omnibusol.com/wcessay4.html
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #319
The earlier the allies would have fully supported the Weimar, perhaps not even militarily, the better it would have been for everyone.
That is a far cry from invading and taking over the politics forcefully!
The problem is that no one really saw Hitler as a threat until it was too late.
The problem here is that you point at Hitler and say "he is to blame"!
You seem to think that with taking him out of the equation everything will be okay, but here you are so wrong!
Hitler, the politician with his hate was born in WWI and the aftermath. Hitler rose to success and acceptance on REAL problems and REAL grievances....they would still exist....Hitler was a symptom of Germany after WWI not the cause!
That is a far cry from invading and taking over the politics forcefully!
This, I would call for as a last resort. If it became clear that Hitler would gain power, invasion would be necessary.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #321
If it became clear that Hitler would gain power, invasion would be necessary.
And then what???
Tell me how an invasion should have worked? Taking control over 80 million people who would NOT want to be ruled by foreign invaders (a Pole should know about it).
Do you know that an invasion would fully play into the hands of the Nazis who talked about an outside conspiracy against Germany in their pamphlets already all the time?
ANYBODY who would work with the invaders would seen as a traitor to the people..
Just ask the French under Napoleon...they brought their ideas of the french revolution to Germany but in the end only brought the Germans to unify against them and together to kick them out...
How do you think such an invasion would be even viable under international right is beyond me...Hitler was still just another politician in an ordinary country!
You would lose ANY moral advantage and who knows, you might pave the way for someone worse than Hitler!
Tell me how an invasion should have worked? Taking control over 80 million people who would NOT want to ruled by foreign invaders
80 million, yes, but many of whom are not yet supporting Hitler. Like I said, this could be done quite quickly with no bloodshed. 18.3% of the popular vote, as mentioned, in late 1932. That isn't much, and I doubt that many Germans would see him or the Nazi's as martyrs. Many of them were trying to grasp power themselves, like the Communists, etc.. I would stage assassinations of Hitler and some of his high ranking officers before the invasion, using a few communists, and then disposing the communist killers afterwards as well.
Money should have been poured into all sectors to stabilize the reformed centrist-socialist govermenent. Allied forces would have been called out as soon as possible so that German citizens can see their own German army.
Bratwurst, I still do not understand why you are so skeptical about anything to do with this. You seem to be very unflexible in your outlook. The Nazi's could have been stopped, man.
Economic reforms and a relatively nationalistic platform could have been present in a democratic Weimar govermnent too. Von Papen could have been a strong figure in reviving Germany, rather than the madman Hitler. With some better decision making, and the taking of a few lives, Europe could have been saved from 6 years of war and millions of lives!
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #323
80 million, yes, but many of whom are not yet supporting Hitler.
No, they would not support Hitler but they would hate to be invaded even more.
If it were the goal of the invaders to destroy any opposition to Hitler and make him a folk hero and martyr, they should go on!
Like I said, this could be done quite quickly with no bloodshed.
French and english troops marching onto Berlin without any bloodshed? I don't think so...
I doubt that many Germans would see him or the Nazi's as martyrs.
Erm...it would be a fight of Germans against invading foreigners...no longer Nazis against Anti-Nazis, you can bet on it!
I would stage assassinations of Hitler and some of his high ranking officers before the invasion, using a few communists, and then disposing the communist killers afterwards as well.
Absolutely unrealistic!
Money should have been poured into all sectors to stabilize the reformed centrist-socialist govermenent.
Money from where? How much? I can't see London or Paris pouring money into Germany..
Allied forces would have been called out as soon as possible so that German citizens can see their own German army.
An independent army would be an enemy of the invaders, or only a joke!
Especially when you somehow managed to murder some of their high command!
Bratwurst, I still do not understand why you are so skeptical about anything to do with this
Realistic Filios, not skeptical!
With some better decision making, and the taking of a few lives, Europe could have been saved from 6 years of war and millions of lives!
But not through a foreign invasion in 1933!
as it wasn't GB or France so much where Hitler had laid his eyes on...
And this was what "Stalin" was banking on.
Stalin believed that Germany would not invade the Soviet Union until Britain and France had been conquered.
Stalin's response to France's defeat was to send Vyacheslav Molotov to Berlin for more discussions. Molotov was instructed to draw out these talks for as long as possible. Stalin knew that if Adolf Hitler did not attack the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941, he would have to wait until 1942. No one, not even someone as rash as Hitler, would invade the Soviet Union in the winter, he argued.
spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSstalin.htm
No, they would not support Hitler but they would hate to be invaded even more.
If it were the goal of the invaders to destroy any opposition to Hitler and make him a folk hero and martyr, they should go on!
If it were the goal of the invaders to destroy any opposition to Hitler and make him a folk hero and martyr, they should go on!
Folk hero's and martyrs are easily forgotten when someone else is the bread winner... If enough jobs and money was flowing into the economy, someone like Hitler would be in the backseat.
Absolutely unrealistic!
Realistic Filios, not skeptical!
But not through a foreign invasion in 1933!
Then tell me, my realistic German friend, how would you have done it?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #326
Folk hero's and martyrs are easily forgotten when someone else is the bread winner... If enough jobs and money was flowing into the economy, someone like Hitler would be in the backseat.
And who would guarantee that how? And what about Danzig? What about the Sudeten? What about Austria? What about the Treaty of Versailles and the restrictions and the war guilt clause?
Then tell me, my realistic German friend, how would you have done it?
The seeds of WWII were already sown in the Treaty of Versailles of WWI.
But since Poland was a profiteur of WWI and this treaty this is something we won't find a common view point about I think...
The moment Adolf Hitler gained the power it was already to late!
What about the Sudeten? What about Austria?
What about them? You know well enough that Austrian ambitions for anschluss evaporated in the early 1920's. They wanted to stay independent, Bratwurst.
Wasn't it Chancellor Schushnig that called a plebiscite and asked:
"Do you want a Free, German, Independent and Social, Christian and United Austria?"
The overwhelming answer was yes! Hitler forced anschluss down Austrian throats.
You speak of Sudetenland as if the Germans were being molested there. They were very happy to be part of Czechoslovakia. Hitler again created disaffection by creating the German Sudeten Party and distorting those Germans' views.
And what about Danzig
A different case. But German and Polish populations co-existed in relative peace.
and the restrictions and the war guilt clause?
Rather unfortunate, but even this could not have led to WW2 on its own.
The seeds of WWII were already sown in the Treaty of Versailles of WWI.
And you hold the view that nothing could have been done to prevent war because of the treaty?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #328
The overwhelming answer was yes! Hitler forced anschluss down Austrian throats.
Oh pleeeeaaaaaase...who taught you that crap?
The Treaty of Versailles FORBID an Anschluß, a unification...why do you think they had to do that???
"...Less than a month after German troops marched into Austria, Hitler ordered that the invasion be ratified by plebiscite. The poll conducted on 10 April 1938 showed that 99.75 per cent of Austrians were in favour of the annexation. Subsequent claims that the results were doctored by the Nazis were later substantiated. But recent research suggests that the actual number in favour of Nazi rule was still about two thirds of the electorate.
Professor Gerhard Botz, a historian at Vienna University who has researched the period closely, said yesterday: "Hitler was welcomed into the country as a successful Austrian who was returning home from abroad and suddenly letting his own people take part in his successes. He was a sort of ersatz monarch." ...
Professor Gerhard Botz, a historian at Vienna University who has researched the period closely, said yesterday: "Hitler was welcomed into the country as a successful Austrian who was returning home from abroad and suddenly letting his own people take part in his successes. He was a sort of ersatz monarch." ...
A different case. But German and Polish populations co-existed in relative peace.
The Poles were NOT "nice" to their german minority and regarding the time Danzig should fell under polish government they were clear about it:"
"Become polish or leave!"
There was no relative peace!
"...The relations between Germany and Poland had already grown tense during the summer because of the question of the treatment of the large Polish minority in Germany and the German minority in Poland.
The struggle of the German minority in Poland against Polonization is paralleled by the struggle of the Polish minority in Germany against their Germanization.
..."
The struggle of the German minority in Poland against Polonization is paralleled by the struggle of the Polish minority in Germany against their Germanization.
..."
You speak of Sudetenland as if the Germans were being molested there. They were very happy to be part of Czechoslovakia. Hitler again created disaffection by creating the German Sudeten Party and distorting those Germans' views.
*rolls eyes*
"...President Woodrow Wilson sent ambassador Archibald Coolidge into the newly created state Czechoslovakia. After Coolidge became witness of Czech police brutality against peaceful Sudetengerman demonstrators (54 killed, among them women and children [1]), Coolidge suggested the possibility of ceding certain German-speaking parts of Bohemia to Germany (Cheb) and Austria (South Moravia and South Bohemia). ..."
.
According to the February 1921 census 3,123,000 Germans lived in all Czechoslovakia, i.e. 23.4% of the total population.
The controversies between the Czechs and the German minority (which constituted a majority in the Sudetenland areas) lingered on throughout the 1920s, and intensified in the 1930s....
.
According to the February 1921 census 3,123,000 Germans lived in all Czechoslovakia, i.e. 23.4% of the total population.
The controversies between the Czechs and the German minority (which constituted a majority in the Sudetenland areas) lingered on throughout the 1920s, and intensified in the 1930s....
My were they happy!
And you hold the view that nothing could have been done to prevent war because of the treaty?
Not really, no!
A smarter politician might have been able to do the same as Hitler, rising to power on grudges and grievances but stopping at a right, a better moment without losing everything again due taking on the world.
But with Hitler a madman with a racist policy came to power, a fanatic...not a pragmatic....
Stopping him before he had righted things would still have left many Germans restless and unhappy, easy prey for another one like Hitler.
Stopping him at his height proved to be impossible...
And Poles, they were treated well in Germany?
From your own source...
So whats your point? Both minorities were ill-treated in each country. What else is new?
If it was only because of the Treaty that Austrians resisted, then why were up to 70,000 thousand political prisoners sent to concentration camps right after the hero Hitler marched in? There was probably 5 times that number of opponents to anschluss in Austria.
From your own source...
is paralleled by the struggle of the Polish minority in Germany against their Germanization...."
So whats your point? Both minorities were ill-treated in each country. What else is new?
The Treaty of Versailles FORBID an Anschluß, a unification...why do you think they had to do that???
If it was only because of the Treaty that Austrians resisted, then why were up to 70,000 thousand political prisoners sent to concentration camps right after the hero Hitler marched in? There was probably 5 times that number of opponents to anschluss in Austria.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11918
4 Dec 2008 / #330
Well...it was your argument: "They lived in relative peace!"