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Tusk's Proposal to Change Poland Constitution


matthias 3 | 429  
27 Feb 2008 /  #1
Prime minister Donald Tusk has advocated changes in the Constitution to eliminate excessive possibilities of blocking government initiatives by the president and opposition parties. In Tusk's opinion, all governing powers should be vested in the election victor.

I support many of the changes to the constitution that Tusk is proposing. However one change he is advocating is very troubling. Tusk wants to reducing the power of the opposition to block proposals. I am very curious to see to what extent he wants to reduce their power. This is can be very troubling if its taken to the extreme for the simple fact that this can lead to abuse. One may trust Tusk and his government, however whose to say that in the future we may not be so lucky.

However on a positive note taking away immunity for politicians and reducing there numbers seems like a wise and very intresting idea. I guess we can wait and see to hear more of the details of his plan.

btw If anybody has links with more information on this topic please feel free to post them, it would be very much appreciated.
plk123 8 | 4,138  
27 Feb 2008 /  #2
yeah.. that kind of move always leads to trouble.. hmm.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
27 Feb 2008 /  #3
Hmmm? what are you think about?

Im sorry I can't tell if your being sarcastic...
plk123 8 | 4,138  
27 Feb 2008 /  #4
no sarcasm... consolidation of power is troubling but i also understand polish peeps.. this move would (without knowing any details) help curb the squabbling which is extremely unproductive.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
27 Feb 2008 /  #5
That is true, Polish politics is notorious for squabbling.... I see the temporary benefits, especially at a time when Tusk is trying to approve much needed economic reforms that are controversial with the opposition. Not to mention his change in foreign policy that the opposition also disapproves off. To tell you the truth its not Tusk that Im worried about, its more about the government that can come to power in the future. However I guess its reasonable if this is done properly.

btw given our friendly history, that's the reason why I wasn't sure if your being sarcastic....
plk123 8 | 4,138  
27 Feb 2008 /  #6
maybe a sunset provision but i am still not big on power grabs. less politicians i am all for and that by itself should help thing along from getting stuck due to insurmountable differences which seem to be frequent. that maybe a good compromise to start.

btw given our friendly history, that's the reason why I wasn't sure if your being sarcastic....

with serious topics i am mostly serious.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
27 Feb 2008 /  #7
plk123 wrote:

maybe a sunset provision but i am still not big on power grabs. less politicians i am all for and that by itself should help thing along from getting stuck due to insurmountable differences which seem to be frequent. that maybe a good compromise to start.

With that I have to 100% agree, plus taking immunity from politicians... this is something that should also be done in the US...
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
28 Feb 2008 /  #8
I can understand Tusk's intentions and I am a big supporter of his, but to echo the two of you, the consolidation of power is troubling. As always in Polish politics there is too many different factions refusing to compromise. And there are things that need to get done otherwise Poland will squabble its way into weakness (as it has done before). The problem with removing some of the checks and balances is you pave a road for an ambitious, power hungry, suedo-tyrant to take control and ruin things. The region has a history of this (see: Russia). I feel a temporary consolidation would be in order during these critical times. An amendment that gets reversed after a time. I feel like I'm matthias and plk123's parrot, simply regurgitating what they've been saying, but let it be known there are concerned, level-headed Poles like yourselves.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
28 Feb 2008 /  #9
EbonyandBathory....

I enjoyed reading your post and it was written very eloquently... Its clear we all agree and it's refreshing to know there are more level headed Poles out there...

I can't speak for plk123 but it does make me feel better...
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
28 Feb 2008 /  #10
Us Poles, we care so much about what's going on over there, and we're so proud of what our country has been able to accomplish in 1000+ years. But political stability and organization are as yet not a particularly Polish trait. Whenever I speak to my Polish friends about politics there is a different tone they get than when I talk to my American friends about American politics. Us Poles have such guarded optimism, such meagre hopes for the country. We don't want to see Poland to become some mighty superpower, we all just want a country that can stand on its own and leave the shadow and the reach of its neighbors. Americans struggle to understand these simple desires. That's not a knock on the US, per se, just an observation. I was so excited after this last election, hoping against hope that things would be different with the PO. The jury is still out, obviously, but like always, my optimism is guarded. Look at me, I'm rambling. Give a Pole a soapbox, be prepared to listen to long speeches...
finT 12 | 167  
28 Feb 2008 /  #11
Unfortunately Polish politics is an unruly beast! I can't believe the BS discussed on TV by politicians. Most seems to be based on disagreeing with others because one simply doesn't like the other guy or also because of that wonderful Polish trait of ALWAYS having to contradict someone else. I often get the impression that decisions are made not for the good of the country but to simply **** off other parties and politicians. There is no love lost between any of these guys. One just has to spend a few weeks watching Polish news to see how this system works in reality! So although Tusk's proposal sounds a bit over the top I believe it is a good step and the only way Tusk's govt will be able to set a stable course and implement many of his other good policies.

Must say that I agree with Matthias' point where he raises concerns over how this will work in the future but for the time being it really is the only way forward.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Feb 2008 /  #12
I would prefer president to have much more power but not because Kaczynski, in general.
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
14 Dec 2008 /  #13
Not enough is said about Tusk on the forum. Is this man really so unspectacular and mundane?
Crow 160 | 9,195  
14 Dec 2008 /  #14
its not always particulary about Tusk

Its about position of Polish PM, about responsibility of his function. His position should reflect position of people, his actions should lead to satisfaction of people`s interests, satisfaction of Polish interests. But, is it so, on all fields?
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
14 Dec 2008 /  #15
It seems to me that the desire to change constitution is all the rage now in Europe.
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
14 Dec 2008 /  #16
Yeah, that appears to be true. For what does Tusk need to arrogate in such a fashion?
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
14 Dec 2008 /  #17
It might be just a vain attempt to compare himself with pillar figures of modern policy such as Putin and Medvedev. Here we have some amendments on the agenda.
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
14 Dec 2008 /  #18
Well, the commonality is that Tusk acts with a view to the next election and preserving power. Putin is of the same ilk.

ft.com/cms/s/0/28e6867a-c4c9-11dd-8124-000077b07658.html, some interesting reading for some.
Crow 160 | 9,195  
14 Dec 2008 /  #19
all what Tusk did on Balkan presenting him as Slavic traitor, the great traitor. Polish history would remember him as politician who took part in split of land of Racowie, who was side by side with mujaheedines against traditionaly loyal Polish partners- Serbians.

So Poles, carefuly with Tusk`s proposals.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
14 Dec 2008 /  #20
Certainly not! We hardly can compare giants with dwarfs.
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
14 Dec 2008 /  #21
Some reading for you, Crow. Were you the author by any chance?
Crow 160 | 9,195  
14 Dec 2008 /  #22
Were you the author by any chance?

by any chance
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
14 Dec 2008 /  #23
It has all the hallmarks of your style
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086  
14 Dec 2008 /  #24
Not enough is said about Tusk on the forum. Is this man really so unspectacular and mundane?

Not really a bad thing, when you look at some of the previous people in power in Poland. I'd rather have a dull, mundane prime minister who actually got something done than some of the previous chimps.

Having said this, something desperately needs to be done with the ridiculous situation in Poland where the Prime Minister has some powers and the President others - *someone* has to be the boss, not no-one.

Wałęsa has a lot to answer for.
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
14 Dec 2008 /  #25
Wałęsa can defend himself, he was operating in different times.

Tusk, to his credit, is not so anti-Russia or Germany. He realises the importance of not falling out with them.
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086  
14 Dec 2008 /  #26
Wałęsa can defend himself, he was operating in different times.

True, but his meddling with the system caused the current imbalance. Part of the problem, at least as I understand it, was his realisation that Poland needed a strong Presidency at the time - but of course, he only realised it after it was too late. I'm sure part of the reason for his loss in 1995 was his indecision over this.

Either the Prime Minister has to give up some powers, or the Presidency has to become a figurehead like the Irish or German ones. I don't think PO will want a strong presidency, yet it seems unlikely that PO plus allied parties who might vote for a change in the constitution to weaken the President's powers will have the majority to do so.

Having said this, it's better to have the checks and balances of the current system than placing too much power in the hands of one man.

I think Tusk wisely realises that bringing Russia, and especially Belarus in from the cold might do wonders for Poland - imagine what opportunities would lie for the Eastern Poles if Belarus opened up?
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
15 Dec 2008 /  #27
There were plenty models where a strong Presidency could serve as an effective counterbalance to the PM. However, power is apt to be abused and Kaczyński has seen fit to rather childishly veto Tusk at many turns. Again Wałęsa likely had a positive vision in mind.

Yeah, Belarus would be an attractive proposition but there are fundamental differences which Kaczyński, I'm sure, will be quick to labour. Not least, religion. Their faith, whilst adopting some of the dictates of Catholicism, has grassroots differences. Also, one of my students (Belorussian) notices many character differences. So, Tusk should focus on his remit, that of forging political ties.

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