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Poland among the greatest enemies of Russia


lesser 4 | 1,311  
25 Jul 2009 /  #61
Nothing has changed in Russia over 20 years, not a single thing, administratively, economically and socially its exactly the same country it was, the only difference is the official names for the administration have changed and the economy is in far worse shape since they're unable to drain neighbouring coutries.

You exaggerate, Russian society to some extend have its little obsessions. People in other states are not much smarter for sure. One thing is sure, Poland don't belong to debated issues among average Russians duo to unimportance of this state and lack of interest in politics in general of people concentrated on everyday life. Even most of Poles give a damn about Polish politics.

Go to pravda forums and read them, i've noticed you implied how Poles are bigoted about their history, you want to see indoctrination and bigotry check them out, or forums of Russia.com

I checked out both forums in the past. These are not reliable sources for sure, many obviously deluded posters prevent serious debates. Beside of that how could you wonder that many Russians posting over there have nothing positive to say about Poland? There is a bunch of Poles posting over there a lot of garbage and obviously provoking attention. If they see few Poles full of happiness that idiotic City Council, of the only capital in Europe (except Tirana) without ring road, commemorated some Chechen 'militant', that is how they consider other Poles as well. While people here care little about Chechen issue, if anything. There is visible fruitless clash of Polish and Russian ignorants.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Jul 2009 /  #62
These are not reliable sources for sure,

Pravda is one of the oldest, largest and most representative newspapers in Russia, its read by milions, if its forums are not a reliable outlook on Russians nothing is.

there have nothing positive to say about Poland?

Its not about Poland, corruption - "western propaganda", decreasing populatioj - "western propaganda", supression of free speech - "western propaganda" etc.

There is visible fruitless clash of Polish and Russian ignorants.

Sorry but no one is clashing, the point is the level of indoctrination of average Joe in Russia about virtually everything is huge and has little to do with Poland.

You exaggerate, Russian society to some extend have its little obsessions

Go to any russian-english forum and start a discussion on any issue Russia has, any whatsoever, those are not little obsessions.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
26 Jul 2009 /  #63
Pravda is one of the oldest, largest and most representative newspapers in Russia, its read by milions, if its forums are not a reliable outlook on Russians nothing is.

Pravda Online, this is just internet tabloid without paper version.

Beside of that, this is obvious that such internet forum cannot be reliable source. Every newspaper run some specific policy and gather people who more or less share such views.
Borrka 37 | 594  
26 Jul 2009 /  #64
Russian society to some extend have its little obsessions.

Are you Russian lesser ?
If "yes" then the case is closed for me.
No more questions necessary.

If "not" ... enlighten me pls.
What are the sources of your brilliant knowledge of the Russian society ?
If not "tabloids" you don't trust, if not the polls and Internet forums..
what then ?
Divine enlightenment ?
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
26 Jul 2009 /  #65
Replacing old coal plants with fresh new solar/wind generators would be a beautiful thing.

And an expensive thing. You have any idea how much those things cost?

Solar panels can be replaced easily.

Errwhat? Really? I can't think of any other power source that provides as little output for as much money. Let me lay it out for you:

Current optimal solar panel price is about 3 E's per watt (solarpanelinfo.com/solar-panels/solar-panel-cost.php).
According to Wiki, world power consumption in 2005 (which of course has much increased since then) equals constant consumption of 16 terrawatts, or 16000000000000 watts. Multiply that by 3.02, and you have the cost in Euros to convert the planet to solar power.

It's 48000000000000, obviously.
It doesn't look that bad - total cost equals something like 8000 Euros per person in the world. But of course we know that, what percent can actually pay that? Half the world's population lives on $2 USD a day. Of the remaining half, more than half really don't care.

It still doesn't look terrible, perhaps, but note also that solar panels also constantly degrade with use, and have an average functional lifespan of about 20-25 years.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
26 Jul 2009 /  #66
And an expensive thing. You have any idea how much those things cost?

Aparently cheaper than you think, one of the UK's major window manufacturers is now installing them, its just about educating poeple and changing peoples perception of solar power.

Im not convinced about wind farms, they've had a very negative impact on the landscapes over here and also the noise they produce is also a nuisance.

As to your figures and the worlds population you were bringing people who dont even have running water in the equation let alone electricity.

Also regarding life span, how many years does a combi boiler last? How long do windows last? I'd say 25 years for very little outlay is quite good considering the savings made over those 25 years, also as technology moves on, who knows how long the ones produced in 25 years time will last, maybe 100 years? We simply dont know because its very new.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
26 Jul 2009 /  #67
Aparently cheaper than you think, one of the UK's major window manufacturers is now installing them, its just about educating poeple and changing peoples perception of solar power.

Not really, nope. Sorry, credible source here. I'm not just guessing at the figures, you know. What I might have thought before doing the research is irrelevant.

Im not convinced about wind farms, they've had a very negative impact on the landscapes over here and also the noise they produce is also a nuisance.

But they do make viable power. Hydroelectric is nice, too.

As to your figures and the worlds population you were bringing people who dont even have running water in the equation let alone electricity.

Exactly. Hence, I also took them out. Their part in the equation was being part of the six billion world population that I divided the total cost of conversion to solar power of, coming up with an average 8k per person. People with no electricity were not included in the estimate for overall world power consumption. Obviously the cost per person is actually multiple times higher because these people with no running water or electricity are not to be expected to pay any of it.

Also regarding life span, how many years does a combi boiler last? How long do windows last?

With proper maintenence, a very long time. The only way to extend the life of solar panels, however, is to not use them.
That means storing them in a dark, cool environment, by the way.

I'd say 25 years for very little outlay is quite good considering the savings made over those 25 years,

But there aren't any savings. Just a ridiculously huge cost. I suppose you could argue it's worth it for the cleanliness of the environment we'll improve over those years, but that's also not quite what you think. Because it also takes quite a lot of energy to produce those things.

also as technology moves on, who knows how long the ones produced in 25 years time will last, maybe 100 years? We simply dont know because its very new.

Let's have that argument in 25 years, when we know that they'll actually last long enough to theoretically be worth the cost, shall we?
Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
26 Jul 2009 /  #68
But they do make viable power. Hydroelectric is nice, too.

They do, im not denying that, but they are unsightly and loud the countryside is already littered with pilons, why make it even more unsightly? If they were all out at sea it would be a different matter, but the costs involved in that are incredibly high (yes I know a little bit about it) and the maintence associated costs are even higher.

What I might have thought before doing the research is irrelevant.

So its all just a big con?

With proper maintenence, a very long time. The only way to extend the life of solar panels, however, is to not use them.
That means storing them in a dark, cool environment, by the way.

Doesnt that defete the object ;0)

Let's have that argument in 25 years, when we know that they'll actually last long enough to theoretically be worth the cost, shall we?

Maybe not, I'm hoping that I wont be on this forum in near future, let alone 25 years...
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
26 Jul 2009 /  #69
They do, im not denying that, but they are unsightly and loud the countryside is already littered with pilons, why make it even more unsightly? If they were all out at sea it would be a different matter, but the costs involved in that are incredibly high (yes I know a little bit about it) and the maintence associated costs are even higher.

Because it produces power. People can enjoy the scenery on their HDTV's powered by the fields of wind farms now, instead! XD

So its all just a big con?

What, solar power? If by 'con', you mean 'much less monetarily efficient than it's generally made out/thought to be', then, yes. It still works, obviously, it's just absurdly costly.

Doesnt that defete the object ;0)

Yes. In other words, if you use them, they'll last about 25 years, tops, and stop producing a significant amount of power. And if you don't use them, then they never even start producing power.

Maybe not, I'm hoping that I wont be on this forum in near future, let alone 25 years...

Haha, nice...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Jul 2009 /  #70
Pravda Online, this is just internet tabloid without paper version.

If you knew anything about Russia you'd know that Pravda is one of the oldest running, most representative and massively read newspapers in Russia, its representative of the current state of Russian society.

Beside of that, this is obvious that such internet forum cannot be reliable source.

Why? Common Russians post there by the thousands, so why cant it be a reliable source? Because you say so?

Their forums are not Polishforums.com with an odd 100-200 regular posters, there's thousands of people from all groups of society and all regions of Russia there.

newspaper run some specific policy and gather people who more or less share such views.

Again if you knew anything about Russia you'd know that most newspapers are goverment run even if they're nominally private ventures, you get closed down for giving the goverment bad press.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
26 Jul 2009 /  #71
Are you Russian lesser ?
If "yes" then the case is closed for me.
No more questions necessary.

Of course if I would be Russian, then no sense to discuss with me. :) Listen to yourself, you are totally biased!

What are the sources of your brilliant knowledge of the Russian society ?
If not "tabloids" you don't trust, if not the polls and Internet forums..
what then ?

I feel sorry for you if you make such judgements reading tabloids, mysterious polls and profiled internet forums. I never claimed to be a specialist, one would need to live in Russia several years and be quite smart to earn such status. I don't belong to fools, however I never lived in this country.

Nevertheless I had a pleasure to cooperate with Russians and this was certainly positive experience. Of course I have met many idiots as well but I never described Russian nation to be perfect.

What I find suspicious about people like you is that unlike myself you claim to met only Russian idiots. I think this is because this is group of Russians that you searched for, so you had found them... Some people see only what they want to see.

If you knew anything about Russia you'd know that Pravda is one of the oldest running, most representative and massively read newspapers in Russia, its representative of the current state of Russian society.

You mean Pravda Online, Komsomolskaya Pravda or Pravda (mouthpiece of CP)? These are three unrelated sources.

Why? Common Russians post there by the thousands, so why cant it be a reliable source? Because you say so?

I answered, because this is profiled forum which gather such posters and not other. I dare to say that GW forum doesn't represent views of Polish people in general. While if somebody from aboard would read comments in onet.pl, such person could think that Poles are mentally retarded. While hardly any adult person from Poland with minimum of reason is active over there.

Again if you knew anything about Russia you'd know that most newspapers are goverment run even if they're nominally private ventures, you get closed down for giving the goverment bad press.

This is true that they cannot write everything what they wish but this is not true that there is completely no space for any differences.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
26 Jul 2009 /  #72
Socrates, there was one accurate and exhaustive observation in this thread. Here it is:

Some people see only what they want to see.

Moreover I'm convinced all people are prone to filter the incoming information so that it fits their perception of the world the best. Particularly you forget to mention that there're loads of other newspapers and boards in Russia which may see and as a result describe same events in a totally different fashion. Not to sound proofless I may suggest you reading things like grany.ru whose vision manner you might like a way more. But I would completely understand you, if you kept on reading "prawda" instead since as I've noticed your favourite stuff is argumentation and that would be hardly interesting for you to speak with people of about your views.

The other point is that "prawda" gathers mostly their own audience from usually not sufficiently educated social sectors who may post there all the day long. Practically "prawda" satisfies you both as it gives for some of Russians the picture of prospering&developing country (exactly the way they want it to be described) and for you Socrates the picture of brainwashed flock of Russian sheeps led by the government in face of gazeta prawda. I could easily make same conclusion as you had done basing on some of Polish resources. I didn't as I know people are different.

I'm afraid I can't share your statement on that everything has stayed the same in Russia. Thankfully there're noticeable changes in people's mind. Slowly but surely illusions vanish even though the government every single time tries to assure how fantastic everything is.

Since we slightly touched the subject of polonofobia and indoctrination it wouldn't be out of place to mention on more thing which is locayed in a mirror. Let's imagine for a second that an average Russian with no bullcrap in his head (oh I know how hard it might be to imagine) roved through the internet and ran into some Borrka's post about his friends from mongolian steppes or (God forbid!) our flying Halbgebildeter Lotnik. What would be his reaction on that? Would it be any different from that of any average Pole? I don't think so.

Are you Russian lesser ?
If "yes" then the case is closed for me.
No more questions necessary.

If "not" ... enlighten me pls.
What are the sources of your brilliant knowledge of the Russian society ?
If not "tabloids" you don't trust, if not the polls and Internet forums..
what then ?
Divine enlightenment ?

Boris, what are you asking for? What kind of "brilliant knowledge on the Russian society" does it take to say that people are different and how is it related to just being sober and logical which lesser has been demonstrating on this forum? You had a horrible experience in Russia? You feel uncomfortable in Russian society? Ok. My regrets. I wish it would be better when you visit us next time. What do years spent here have to do with the "knowledge of the Russian society"? Some like it, some do not. Or you're gonna settle their hash? I mean those who (OMG!!!) liked staying in Russia...

You might wanna just thank lesser for his brick in the base of healthy relationship between two our countries. ;)
Btw, borrka, how many "lessers" you think would it take to only compensate the damage you bring into Polish-Russian relationship?
Borrka 37 | 594  
26 Jul 2009 /  #73
Btw, borrka, how many "lessers" you think would it take to only compensate the damage you bring into Polish-Russian relationship?

Me bringing any damage to the Russo-Polish relationship ?
C'mon Sasha I guess you understand pretty good my position.

As a matter of fact I'm rather friend of Russia but not this Russia driven by sick chauvinism of Dugin's type.

Your only problem with me is that I know pefectly your society, culture, political trends etc.etc.
I know your "mysterious Russian soul" lol.
My knowledge is of the level that already hurts many of you... because I'm not Russian !
And you believe this kind of experience should be kept for your "Russian family" only.

BTW. Lessers do not count at all, get real Sasha.
You can buy them, you can hire them, they are easy to trick ...
So either we don't speak at all of the good relationship or we are serious.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
26 Jul 2009 /  #74
Sasha

Thank you for your reasonable comments. Of course access to Borkka's brain is denied to such messages but who really cares about his opinion?!? :)

We can both send to him congratulations because above he revealed to us his the greatest achievement ever, I mean:

I'm not Russian !

Congrats!
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
26 Jul 2009 /  #75
But there aren't any savings. Just a ridiculously huge cost. I suppose you could argue it's worth it for the cleanliness of the environment we'll improve over those years, but that's also not quite what you think. Because it also takes quite a lot of energy to produce those things.

You are right, PK. We shouldn't invest in solar energy. Let's wait when oil price reaches the point when E8,000/person x year won't be enough and Russia again decides to close the tap amid a harsh winter. I think when we have frozen asses, our brains start to process faster. Whatever Germans invented with Desertec technology is bad for us, let's keep on burning oil like we have been doing for 150 years already cause the Earth will give us more and the air will clean itself.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,457  
26 Jul 2009 /  #76
Sasha?

Is there an english language russian forum you could recommend?

pravda.ru is full of nutters as far as I could see...:(
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
27 Jul 2009 /  #77
may see and as a result describe same events in a totally different fashion

Of course but if they get too uppity the goverment pulls Politkovskaya, and they're still a minority.

The other point is that "prawda" gathers mostly their own audience

Sasha the problem with "prawda" audience is that it represents the majority, of course there's some objective people in Russia, but voices defending human rights and freedoms are few and far between.

I'm afraid I can't share your statement on that everything has stayed the same in Russia.

There has been some changes brought mostly by technology, you cannot keep a complete censorship and have internet and cell phones at the same time but for the most part the country is being ruled by mafia and former KGB, people are being fed rubbish from all directions.

Would it be any different from that of any average Pole? I don't think so

I dont think Lesser is a Pole but apart from that i dont think there's any anti-Russian sentiment, there's pretty big anti-Russia sentiment but thats different, also i never claimed Russians are polonophobic.

The problem with Russia is its history and upbringing, the country and the nation had a history of ruthless bullying and exploitation both abroad and towards its own people, todays Russians are for better or worse children of this infexible, cruel regime, its not just a question of communism but also of the Tsars.

Of course there's ethical, moral people in Russia who want a better life and a better future for their nation but they're individuals typically devoured by the masses.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
27 Jul 2009 /  #78
You are right, PK. We shouldn't invest in solar energy. Let's wait when oil price reaches the point when E8,000/person x year won't be enough and Russia again decides to close the tap amid a harsh winter. I think when we have frozen asses, our brains start to process faster. Whatever Germans invented with Desertec technology is bad for us, let's keep on burning oil like we have been doing for 150 years already cause the Earth will give us more and the air will clean itself.

But it's not E8000. That's what the price would be if everyone in the world could magically pull it out of their- er, wallets. But we of course know that only a fraction of the people in the world could afford this much, let alone what we'd have to multiply it by so that said fraction could pay it all. Stop living in a dream world, solar power is not the miracle solution. And just because there's a limit to how long we can use oil, doesn't mean that every alternative is preferable. Let's not be naiive. Wanna try nuclear fusion, instead?

energy sources that can produce 100 to 300% of present world power consumption without greenhouse emissions do not exist operationally or as pilot plants

-Advanced Technology Paths to Global Climate Stability (1 Nov., p. 982), Hoffert et al.

Which is not to say that I love oil, either. I just find that any alternative that, y'know, actually works is preferable to one that doesn't, no matter how clean and how quiet it may be.
Crow 146 | 9,152  
27 Jul 2009 /  #79
;)

:)

brate Nathane are you realy Ukrainian?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
27 Jul 2009 /  #80
I dont think Lesser is a Pole

Question arise Who am I? ...and why do you think so? :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
27 Jul 2009 /  #81
No idea, just got an impression that you're not Polish, if you're good for you.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
28 Jul 2009 /  #82
:)

brate Nathane are you realy Ukrainian?

Of course, I am Ukrainian, brate Crow. Who else can laugh at us if not we ourselves, members of a big family :)
Crow 146 | 9,152  
28 Jul 2009 /  #83
true haha hahha hahha hahah hahah true

:)
mbiernat 3 | 107  
28 Jul 2009 /  #84
All this talk of Poland and Russia as enemies and where Ukraine will sway, (I am an American living in Poland with Polish and Ukrainian roots and travel to Russia) is a non point if Russia has a true free market.

Free movement of labor and capital will create peace and between these three countries. People will honor the past but move on from it. Look at Scotland and England or Ireland. Free capital and labor flow created partners out of enemies. This was the philosophy of Adam Smith.

Mark
autoinsurance5.com/economy/economic-theory/adam-smith-was-a-good-man
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Jul 2009 /  #85
Free movement of labor and capital will create peace and between these three countries. People will honor the past but move on from it. Look at Scotland and England or Ireland. Free capital and labor flow created partners out of enemies. This was the philosophy of Adam Smith.

I'm not in favour of free movement of labour with Russia. Significant part of Russian citizens consist from people civilizationally alien to us. They would have serious problems with assimilation living most likely in ethnic ghettoes. Reasonable immigration policy must contain some degree of discrimination in such cases.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
29 Jul 2009 /  #86
Is this 'the Russian soul'? LOL ;) ;)

We know all about the Polish soul ;)
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
4 Aug 2009 /  #87
Slavs shouldn't consider other Slavs enemies...Rather, they should reason together.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
4 Aug 2009 /  #88
Human beings shouldn't consider other human beings enemies...Rather, they should reason together.

Too bad, life sucks.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
5 Aug 2009 /  #90
Why would I do that? That sounds like a silly thing to do... almost as silly as imagining a world where international relations can be based around putting aside all one's differences, ambitions, identity and desires to focus on one common ground instead. Sounds nice, sure, but let's focus on things that work... any real solution, no matter how flawed, is better than an imaginary one, no matter how perfect, imo.

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