What is the future of Catholic church in Poland.

there is nothing wrong with that, check out www crap jobs or crap towns in UK , a lot of guys like u and me have/had similar experience

idler.co.uk/category/crap-jobs

We'll be taken to RC before long, so I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure that RC has a big future.


I have a very good job in a very nice part of the English countryside, but it does involve manual labour as well as a large brain.

RC form Polish point of view is different story when compare to UK or Ireland

Aha, no drinking and no insulting tonight.

I thought about going to Mass to cleanse myself but, upon reflection, ....

I however do. And as for your 'left media' comment, don't the left have a right to their opinion too. So often people attribute an non-ontological viewpoint to people's political stance whereas in reality their world-view derives from a more sophisticated dialectic?

No, you don't have the basic knowledge. According to Catholicism, the Church is neither a building nor the clergy. It is the whole congregation of believers. And since we talk about the church in Poland, we're talking about the Polish believers. It's a bit strange, but Polish congregation has their own views which sometimes differ from the official doctrine of Vatican (the most striking example is Radio Maryja). In Poland, most people who declare their strong connections with the Catholic church are pro-death penalty. Being pro-DP goes in one package with being conservative, traditional and catholic. So, regardless of Vatican's doctrine, Polish church is pro. And the Polish church is also vengeful although Jesus said people should forgive each other. If Polish Catholics really cared about what Vatican says, Poland would be a paradise.


Theoretically. I've never met anyone (live or on the net) who attended to a school that actually conducted such lessons. None of mine had them either. Like most students who don't attend, I wasted my time in the school hall. In my liceum about half of the students didn't attend religion and we had a philosophy graduate in the teaching staff - still, we couldn't have ethics. So the possibility of ethic lessons for everyone interested is fiction.

Don't try to discuss using theoretical arguments, because theoretically Christians are merciful and practically they organized crusades.

You make some very good points...the Church is, indeed, the assembly of it's faithful: the Body of Christ...The Church has always been a cornerstone of Polish civilization, and it will continue to be...My main objections with regard to Catholicism is the Vatican...You must understand that the Vatican is also a 'political entity', and a bureaucracy...I feel that in many, many ways the Vatican has lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit...Also, the Church's ban on allowing priests to marry is a big error...It has no basis in Scripture...This ban is the cause of the rampant homosexuality among the clergy...In closing, the heart of the Church is, as you said the believers, and this is best expressed and displayed at the local level...Remember, the Greatest Parrish Priest was Jesus Christ.

Let them speak out, I'm very liberal. However your comment sounds strange, you care so much about future of left-wing media while this ideology control mainstream media since 1989 (I'm so kind to ignore PRL). You don't find it strange than in such conservative society, so long center-right media could not reach mainstream? Ideological mouthpiece (GW) of very small party (UD) strangely happened to be the largest and practically the only daily in whole Poland? Of course they were supposed to represent whole 'anti-communist opposition'.


In my opinion behind the world-view of majority there is no any sophisticated dialectic (I don't like to use this word in Hegelian sense), just populist slogans.


Church is international and have hierarchic structure. I don't deny that some people always bring national bias but they have no clue. While even people who share similar views often disagree about many issues. The anti-liberal idea of total agreement belong rather to leftist totalitarianism.


Learn about crusades before commenting...

Religon in Poland is like fanaticism and I'm disgusted with it. I don't really know what the future holds but I do know that people should spend less time at church praying for miracles and get off their asses and do something about country's problems instead running away from them.

I assume that you don't attend masses.

1. What did you do for Poland?
2. How much advantage of one hour weekly (over church-going Catholics) helped you in your achievements?

This thread is about the future of the Catholic church, not its stand on an issue or our opinions on that issue.


A jew? I think not. Typical reconstructionist "logic" of the faithful.


Ooh - accusing Switezianka of being uneducated? Not wise.

The future of the church may depend on the stance it takes to numerous issues. What else do people judge sth on if not their position on sth?

Not going to church has spared me listening to gibberish that it preaches. It teaches you to be a victim, it teaches weakness, turning the other cheek. It doesn't teach people to stand up and do something about their misery to help improve their lives, their country. Here and now is the chance to make things better, not when you die. I refuse to bow down to some dead jew's ramblings and infest my mind with spiritual pipe dreams. I bet if people put more energy and devotion into their country instead of spirituality, great things would follow.

Good post Orzel, apart from the difference between spirituality and religion. U can still be a spiritual person and not go to church. Otherwise, what u said was spot on.

i'm not so sure about this "spiritual" hat people are wearing these days (i used that line a good 10-15 years ago on girls at highschool) what the heck does being spiritual mean in lieu of being religious?

What irks me about the RC faith here is that you have these priests who are supposed to be messengers of god, doing what the apostles were supposed to have been doing, preaching the word of jesus who they view as god and how are they living? Well they certainly haven't taken any vows of poverty.

I don't even believe in the guy but according to the new testament he and his apostles rejected riches in favour of "the kingdom of god" or whatever, yet these saintly folk are driving nice new cars and living in duże domy and have no problem asking for money after every "amen."

It doesn't affect me either way but certainly anybody should be able to see the hypocrisy.

Fantastic commentary For4, it reminds me of John Lennon singing 'Imagine' from his white mansion. Imagine no possessions as he is surrounded by them, LOL.

Yeah, unjust enrichment is a crime and they almost fall into that bracket in my book. Playing off of people's sympathies is lame. That's why I believe in self-guided faith. The only person u r ever with throughout ur life is u, or God if u care to see it that way. Not a priest in a BMW.

So, make a pact with me, myself and I folks and don't line the pockets of these deluded preachers.

Thanks Seanus, that's a really good analogy i hadn't considered (sucks cause i do like the message of his song).

Hey are you and your girl getting married? I ask cause right now we're at that stage and well i think you know where i stand on the church so we're at a crossroads. Wonderin if anyone's in a similar situation and has any helpful hints...

Anyhow, back to what you wrote,


-i honestly think that it's easier for a lot of people to do exactly that seanus, than, do any real reflection on what their moral compass is or isn't and compare that compass to their actions. It's just easier for some (not all) to hand over some cash, repeat some words and get dressed up for "god."

Obviously the catholic church here served as a unifying vehicle during communism so you can't speak the truth too loudly as sentiment drowns out logic every time. In the end this bears truth that most need to be lead and in tough times the catholic church served as the leader.

In all honesty i'm not exactly thrilled with the way poles have turned to consumerism to replace piety. I'm not suggesting it has to be one or the other but here it seems those 2 extremes are the average expressions.

Yet, consumerism (if monitored) can breed an extremely stong middle class, a huge tax base.

Perhaps, just whom were the educators? :)


Personally I'm not used to turn other cheek as well as the vast majority of people. So if anything produce weak people this is not the church (which actually helped to end the communist period in our part of the world and not only) but welfare state. If bloody communist regime would take over Sweden and international community would ignore this fact, you could be sure that this would be very long dictate.

On other hand, maybe this is good that Vatican doesn't add fuel to the flames, because gregarious instinct of the masses is a really bad adviser.

Still, I don't know what did you do for Poland... Don't be shy.


Why do you think that poverty is a virtue? Sounds very socialist to me, 'if not poor then cannot be trusted'. While in fact priests are neither poor or rich. They are living in modern world and rejection of technological achievement would not help them to understand problems of our generation.


Please stop... Why do you want to tell somebody what to do with his money?

Boy oh boy i can always count on lesser to try his hand at an online duel with me.
No i don't consider it a virtue but you have to look at my original post a little more closely. It's the fact that (correct me if i'm wrong) the new testament proclaims poverty to be a virtue yet the church doesn't walk that line, that's where my criticism lays.

a new car vs. the bus is an example of one being "rich" especially if you consider that this was even the case 10 years ago when having a car was much more of a status symbol then than now.


Where did i write that I encouraged them to take a step back in time and reject technology?
I didn't, you assumed and projected your way to this conclusion and neither I nor Seanus suggested as much.

Nonetheless I question your position. I doubt wheter a priest having an iphone or driving instead of taking public transport (you know like a lot in the country do) somehow allows them to understand people's problems much more than if the opposite were true. Human nature is rather timeless and whatever religion seeks to cure or control isn't rooted in modern machinery.

Look lesser, I don't know if you've purposely been trying to target me but this is getting rather repetitious for me and fruitless for you (if your goal has been to prove a point). Hey if you catch me on something inconsistent then hats off to you and a big "thanks" for helping me see the light but you've yet to do so and generally just muddle things up so at least be more critical of what you write than what i do.


well then it must be an unquestionable virtue?

It's not what he does with his money that concerns me lesser, never has been and never will be.

It's how he gets his money that For4 and I were commenting on, quite a difference, wouldn't u say? This is the Information Age, people can educate themselves through books or online materials, reducing the need for a priest. It's a bit like a footballer, they know that their career will be short and want as much in the bank as possible. Priests just lack moral scruples sometimes, a tragic irony if ever there was one.

I echo what For4 says, u seem to lose every argument u have with me. I'd love my 'glaring inconsistencies' to be pointed out to me.

I promise, I will buy u a torch as a source of light 4 u.

These religious freaks are persistent. I remember my mum, many years ago, turning the priest away for harassing our family and thrusting his religious nonsense on us. I think a torch went up his jacksie too.

I'm glad that you don't consider poverty to be virtue. I did not expect other answer. Simply I provoked you to elaborate, because this post could provoke some people to write rubbish.

While the parable of the talents is very capitalistic.


People who live in poverty have very reduced contact with modern technologies. Simple conclusion.


These are details which help them in their mission. Everybody ask yourself whether you prefer public transport or car and why. Sometimes it is indeed more useful to use public transport but I think that I don't need to explain how much cars help us.


Fortunately the Catholic Church fully respect separation from the state.


Don't be so self-centric, I regularly comment posts of many other posters as well. Nothing personal, in the internet forums expect also people who disagree with you on some issues. After all, you made some good points, much more than many other posters. If somebody would help me to understand that I'm wrong on some issues, I would be only glad to him. Otherwise you at least learn how other people see something from different perspective.


So then you question for example how I spend my money. If I donate then this is only my problem.

You don't sound very tolerant to me.

I've just pissed myself at that! pot calling kettle black:D:D:D

Lesser, I can't believe what I am reading here. Please, donate away, if u feel that a certain cause is worth it.

I don't question how u spend ur money at all. If u met me, u'd see that I am very tolerant.

OK, let me put it 2 u another way. Poles, from a young age, have Catholic influences around them. This was particularly true when JPII was the Pope. They don't need to be told to come to church. I've had priests round so I just speak English. I've talked to many Poles on this point, being a teacher gives me that possibility.

Rydzyk is a guy who has done what the best capitalists do, broadcast himself often and manipulated people.

A bit like those American Priest's who live of the riches gave to them by mis-guided fools.

Unquestionable? I don't know about that but a large tax base can be virtuous, sure.. if it improves infrastructure, education, provides a decent military. A large prosperous middle class should actually bring taxes down for the individual. Consumerism can be a catalyst for that. Europeans like to paint it as a brazen evil sometimes - it is not.

I explain my point calmly without 'personal travels', using arguments.

Rydzyk spread socialistic message that I don't support. However you Seanus should be happy, you are socialist after all.

hmm, never met a rich American priest. That's new one on me.

No one's asking you to explain the convenience of a car. But it might be that accessible convenience, that is quite often above what the average person drives, which does serve as a barrier to truly understanding his parishioners.

So, you still haven't made a point to support your earlier claim. I challenge you to tell me how a priest driving instead of taking the bus allows him to understand the problems of our generation better and thus do his "job" any better.


Simple conclusion if you've misread and or misinterpreted everything i've written-congrats, i have to admit i am mildly annoyed with you for this. But perhaps english isn't your first language and i'm just being a jerk, if so, i apologize.

*sigh* I didn't advocate they live in poverty did I? No I didn't.
I merely pointed out that despite the teachings of their leader which is in effect their law, the clergy lives in comparative wealth to the rest of the society here in Poland. Now that's hardly consistent with the gospels is it?

Maybe in Romans, Numbers, Corinthians, Book of Revelations can you show me something, somewhere in the new testament where it says "yeah priests and clergy are exempt from the 'happy are those who are poor for they shall inherit the kingdom of heaven'" or something to that effect? Or where it says priests don't have to render unto ceasar what is his?

Can you do that? no you can't because the lifestyle the priests and bishops generally enjoy here and have been enjoying are entirely inconsistent with the teachings of their god, their figure head and that certainly casts doubt on a great deal of their sincerity and integrity doesn't it?

and that's been my point, not that they should be poor, not that they should reject technology simply that they should reject such wealth stop asking for money and try to live consistently with the example of jesus, not just when it's convenient. until then, i say they're a bunch of crooks.


look up non sequitor

Socialist, hehehe. On some issues I have socialist 'leanings' but I am a liberal. As Wahldo has said, I play Devil's Advocate very well. I can see different positions well.

It may surprise u to know that I also have views that square with right-wing thinking. Few, yes, but they are there.

So, care to read the article I posted?

PLEASE Lesser, comment on the following to see how u damage people more by labelling them and giving them complexes and mind-changing treatments like ECT. Harm to others is a far greater offence than harm to self, especially if u affect a whole category of people.

pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-7721.html
here, please read it

Remember the words 'private', 'informed consent' and 'understanding' lesser