Poland 2007 Elections: PO Won, PIS second

I try to understand politics...
It's a really hard thing to understand. Also, I find myself becoming cynical about the political parties. In local politics (here in the USA) there is a lot of corruption. For example. City commisioners decide to build a new school. So one of the commisioner's family members will buy land from a farmer for $300 per acer. Then the city buys the same land from the 'new owner' for $3000 per acer. That's our tax money at work, lining the pockets of bankers and wealthy business owners.

But what is the alternative? Religious fanatics, Communists, Dictatorships, Nope....I'll take corrupt free market over all the other forms of government. We don't live in an ideal world of numbers and perfect shapes.

My understanding of Polish politics is severly limited, but it seems like things have been worse than they are now, and that your people expect things to get better. When I travel around the country by train, I see HUGE agricultural potential in Poland. I hope that as the land modernizes, the people benifit, rather than corperate states. In the USA, I feel like the working people stress, and struggle, while the rich and poor benifit from our labors. Like I said, maybe it's just cynical thinking.....

Good luck!
-Ramsey

LiD claims to be socialistic but in fact they have no political orientation. Group of opportunists, their only goal is to be professional politicians as long as possible. PSL cares about peasants only and collect voters among them. I'm not sure but I think BNP is socialistic and rather atheistic. LPR just recently started to express some economic liberalism, before they were known as populist socialists. Both BNP and LPR are anti-EU, the latter is conservative in Catholic sense.


Both mayor parties, I mean PO and PiS agreed for early elections in that way (to exclude competition of smaller parties) that all elections committees that wanted to start needed to collect a lot of signatures during very short period of time (10 days). Normally they would have I think a bit more than one month. This caused that only seven election committees managed to register. Some smaller parties like UPR or PR joined LPR list because this was the only way to participate in these elections. NOP failed to register alone and with their reputation (quite aggressive in rhetoric) this is impossible to join some bigger party lists. However they have very small support and absolutely no chances to enter parliament.

Your description of LiD could easily be applied to most British MP's and all MEP's!


Basically old fashioned Communists under a new name then.


I think the Socialists would disagree with that as they hate the BNP and consider them to be 'extreme right wing'. Though looking through their policies there is a mix of Socialism and Conservatism.

Certainly not atheistic though, very anti Muslim and into 'Defending Christian Values' while remaining secular.


Do you think the election result would have been different if smaller parties had more time to register?

How many signatures are needed? In the UK you only need 10 signatures per candidate and then pay a £500 deposit (which you get back if the candidate gains 5% or more of the vote).

Same here but especially LiD and Samoobrona.


Befre WWII PSL was a real mainstream party, later was hijacked by communist regime and renamed to ZSL. This is how they pretended that we have multi-party system. So current PSL origin in this communist one. They are socialistic and full of happiness because Common Agriculture Policy of the EU. However on moral issues they have conservative stance, probably because this is stand of most of their voters.


Well, I see the world how it is and not how the socialists would wish us to see it! :) According to leftist propagandists Hitler was also extreme right despite being member of National Socialist Party!


What is their stance on issues like abortion, homo-marriages/adoption? I have read once David Cameroon, from supposed Conservative Party who asked for exclusion of Catholic orphanages from giving their children to adoption for homosexuals... This is not how conservatism is considered in Poland. If a leader of the party that I support (UPR) said something like this I would be shocked and demand not only his resignation but also expulsion from the party structures :) So I presume that British conservatism is rather about economy. However I read that Cameroon claim to be Protestant.


5000 to be registered in one election district. (out of 41) If you manage to do it in 21 election districts then they automatically register you in whole country. But of course you need to try to do it in every district and you must collect more because some may be questioned later. If mayor parties get donations from state budget then this is not problem for them. While small parties have a lot of problem especially if they officially oppose such donations like UPR.


I think that they could together collect about 4%. Mostly recently established Woman Party, a leftist project which immediately gained positive coverage of mainstream media and UPR which is rarely mentioned and if something then only in "bad" context. General results would be almost the same but these parties lost the opportunity of promotion in public media. Unfortunately we have "media democracy", because media create image of parties and certain politicians, chose subject of discussions during the debates and even who will represents certain party (if invited at all). Level of manipulations is horrific.

They are opposed to social abortion but would allow it in certain circumstances, example if the pregnancy was the result of rape.

They are opposed to homosexual marriages and homosexuals adopting children.


Cameron is simply a poor imitation of Tony Blair.


The Conservative Party is. They represent the interests of Global Capitalism.


Exactly the same in the UK.

Yeah, I remember BBC giving the honorary title of the Man of XX Century to Carl Marx...

Just one more question, how Independence Party differ from BNP? They fight for the same voters I suppose.

NYT about the result of our elections.


nytimes.com/2007/10/27/opinion/27sat3.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"The Kaczynskis spoke, and will doubtless continue to speak, for the hurts and resentments born of Poland’s tragic 20th-century history. The problem was that they often behaved as if that history was the exclusive property of their political party, and their belligerent, populist tone its only legitimate voice.

The grudges and suspicions they nurtured extended not just to ex-Communists, but to Germans of all generations, foreign business leaders, secularists, intellectuals, and on and on. They fostered a climate of accusation and suspicion that divided Poland from its natural European partners and alienated the more forward- and outward-looking younger generation."

these are the same grudges and suspicions that are displayed on this forum - lets hope that those who continue to hold them realise the harm they are doing to poland's present and future and allow the more forward and outward-looking of the younger generation lead poland into its deserved future.

Join us or shut up.


And... ? What about Jamaican press ?

It is interestiong why Americans prefere Tusk as their partner ? Tusk is going to take our soldiers form Iraq and I dont think Poland is going to support USA policy in way it was last time. Maybe it was rather problem to have such friends as PM Kaczysnki?


Oh yes join who ? Now Poland is represented by PO not by your PiS.

Do you think that NYT runs America ?

No I think that curently FOX runs USA, but it is another discussion ...

and Poland is run by TVN, right? :)

By the way, this is funny how "Rzeczpospolita" daily plans to print English version magazine done by people from NYT. So the blind supporters of PiS want to print American "GW"!

I agree that TVN has liberal character, and is very popular TV station in Poland, but I dont think they "run Poland"

Perhaps the most influencing. Masters in media manipulation - turning a TV set into a brain washing machine. Together with Gazeta Wyborcza.

TVN is owned by ITI group (a major media group in Poland, listed on the Luxembourg stock exchange).

The ITI also owns the largest Polish portal onet.pl as well as other media including control over "Tygodnik Powszechny" - important catholic magazine.

ITI is an interesting enterprise which started under communst rule (before 1989) dealing in the area of electronics, involved in foreign trade.
However unlike other private enterprises they did not suffer difficulties from communist authorities. Please realize that running even a small private shop was a nightmare before 1989 on this side of Iron Courtain.

After dissolving the WSI (Military Information Service) by the PIS government (2006) the dirty truth leaked out: this company was in service for communist 's intelligence.

Important details remains obfuscated including relations among the TVN and WSI.

see in wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojskowe_S%C5%82u%C5%BCby_Informacyjne

I dont agree, brain wash is made in TVP or RM, yes TVN is liberal but you should notice that members of PiS and their point of view is respected in TVN. Wildstein, Staniszkis, Ziemkiewicz the main propagators of IV RP and other PiS ideas are widly represented in debates which we have in TVN. Polsat (another TV station) has just that kind of character they atack everybody in brutal way, durring SLD gov they were one of the most brutal, durrring PiS gov they did the same ... There is Radio M and TV Trwam ... everybody can find something to watch or read (GW, Nasz Dziennik, Dziennik, Rzeczpospolita, Wprost, Polityka, Newsweek Pl ed. Nasz Dziennik, Trybuna, NIE) Everybody has their media, and it is good, our media arent political correct and it is in my opinion really good but the price is that we have brutal debates ... (all sides arent political correct) and I m sure that PO is not going to change it...

I presume you're asking about UKIP (United Kingdom Independance Party)?

They're a single issue party. They are opposed to Britain's membership of the EU and that's about it. All other policies are related to that one issue.

They both fight for the same anti-EU vote. In the last EU election UKIP came out on top, they were fairly even matched at the last General election and the BNP come out on top in local elections.

So you little know what is media manipulation and related propaganda and persuation technics. I do not say being professional in this area. Just basic knowledge to be aware.

This is a common feature of GW readers (TVN watchers as well). I say a word related to manipulation (or related) - they do not understand.

For exaample: a simple word memetics is not known. Or I have not met anyone of them knowing it yet.

The famous book "The virus of the mind" has been translated into Polish. However ....

The basic knowledge about media manipulation you can find even in wikipedia. Do not expect it would be written about it in GW or told in TVN :))

They are masters because you are not conscious of beeing affected. Finally you think the way they want.

TVN is liberal and everybody know that, so what is the problem ? They represent liberal point of view, that is all. I western countries there is the same, some media are conservative some are liberal. In Poland we have choice if you dont like TVN or GW you can read Dziennik or Wprost, Trybuna or NIE and watch other TV stations .


for example you think that lower taxes are better, that gay is equal human, EU is good business for Poland ...

Conservatist have their media and Liberals have their media, Commies have their media too. Everything is ok

and this whole atack of populists and RM listners on liberal side of our society gave PO victory in election :) so you can continue your crusiade...

Wasted time to discuss with you about it.

Similiar problems with:

* Jehovah's Witnesses - they are quite a nice people but do not even try to talk to them about religion.

* Amway distributors - you can talk, bot avoid any subject related to marketing or business...

* and so on.

In reality, PO is a party opposed to the radical reforms that PiS attempted to implement, notably ridding Poland of the Communist mafia permeating all the spheres of Polish political and economic life, and bringing to book those guilty of crimes and abuses during Communism. PiS has tried to keep Poland as sovereign as possible within EU. PO's role as opposition in the PiS-dominated Sejm was limited to obstructing PiS attempts to reach these goals. In addition, PiS has been cautious about the German aspirations to rule the EU single-handedly, and about Germany's being in cahouts with Russia, whereas PO appears to be clearly pro-German. By the way, Tusk, who isn't ethnic Polish, has a Hitlerite family tradition: his grandfather served in the Wehrmacht. Tusk, who is a historian by education, has lied he didn't know his grandpa was Hitler's trooper. Today the German nationalist daily Frankfurter Allgemaine Zeitung praises Tusk as 'Germany's friend.' Well, who are those in this thread who celebrate PO victory? As for some expat Britons here who seem to be happy about the PO win, how would you like it if I praised the victory in Brit elections of a party determined to make Britain a third-rate EU player, strip Britain of sovereignty and allow her to be ruled by secret services of, say, US, Germany and France?


- And what do you mean by that? Please, elucidate.
:)


- The media psychopaths run many countries, and they definitely run America. In brief, it works like this: when the media psychos en masse keep on praising someone, then even if the figure were a serial killer the people will automatically start perceiving him positively and he'll have a bright political career. On the other hand, when the media psychos en masse keep on picking on someone, then even if the figure were Jesus himself, the people will automatically start perceiving him negatively, and he'll be finished as a politician. It's that simple.

PS. That's exactly what has happened in Poland during the recent elections: PiS, a party for whom the Polish national interest is the highest value, had against itself the combined power of hacks from Michnik's Gazeta Wyborcza, Walter's TVN, Solorz's Polsat, Springer's Dziennik, etc., whereas PO, a party for whom Polish national interest has little value, was supported by those hacks.


- Hm, so the Rzeczpospolita hacks are allegedly 'blind supporters' of PiS? Don't you exaggerate a tinge? In reality, the Rzeczpospolita under Gauden seemed like a twin sister of Michnik's Polonophobic Gazeta Wyborcza. Rzeczpospolita has been a dumping ground for all sorts of Communist politruks, such as Stefan Bratkowski. Have you ever read this sinister hack's brutal and slanderous anti-PiS tirades in the Rzeczpospolita?

I m not going to discuss with you, you dont stick to Polish reality ... In my opinion you have read all informatons about Tusk (and his family history) in different topics on this forum and now you lie just because you want to lie ... kiss my a s s. POLAND HAS CHOSEN HIM

- Of course, you're not going to discuss with me, because you're not intelligent enough to do that. Also, I can safely assume you are unable to prove I 'don't stick to Polish reality' and that I'm lying about Tusk's family's Nazi connection and his indignant lying about his ignorance of it. It's just part of Poland - the ignorant polaczkowie like you, the thoughtless mob brainwashed by Michnik and his - who have 'chosen' Tusk. As for your demand that I kiss your miserable behind, hm, it seems that you're not only a liar and ignoramus, but also a sexual deviant. Is it you on the pic to the left of your post?

Let's wait and see how Tusk and his mob rule. Then I'll remind you your nauseating joy at their 'victory.'
:)

Not true.


You forgot to say that yes he served in the Wehrmacht, but deserted. He joined the Allies, so against the nazists...You should tell the whole story and not only the parts you choose...

My mother (who is Polish) told me a few weeks ago that my grandfather was on the German side too (by force). It doesn't mean he was a nazist, as i am not.

get a picture of your idol Donald Tusk then go and toss yourself.

Do you have a poster of Kaczki in your bedroom, and a statue of Rydzyk ?... ;)

what for ?

frankly:
a poster - copy of a picture of a famous painter. looks nice (no politics no religion, just imagination).

Hehe just joking ;) I'm going, dobra noc.

- Well, so even you agree that Tusk's grandpa served in the Wehrmacht. It's what actually counts here - grandpa did really serve in the Wehrmacht. How many Poles did he kill? As for his defecting to 'the Allies,' I don't know much about it, and I am incredulous about the alleged escape. The rumours about the escape may be a piece of propaganda for the benefit of Tusk and his party. Quite a few Nazi bandits defected to the Allies when they realised Germany had lost the war. Tusk was obviously hiding his grandpa's past, so it appears the past must not have been too glorious. In fact, the communists accepted numerous Nazi collaborators into the Russian-led security apparatus, the dreadful 'bezpieka.' Or winked at their past for some favours, such as ratting. To conclude, because of Tusk's grandpa's Nazi past and Tusk's lying about it any real Pole should not trust Tusk.

Oh, so you also have a Nazi family connection?

No wonder you defend Tusk and slam decent Polish people, such as the Kaczynskis and Father Rydzyk.

Perhaps you keep in your bedroom a life-size portrait of Hitler?
:)

Puzzi he served 14 days in wermaht and deserted and joined allied forces ... that is why I m not going to discuss ... you are 'inteligent' in different way ... you dont know the facts and you accuse sb ... typical PiS supp

and who carres about his grand fa ... no body