Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS

I don't think they are actually blocking anything, there's no party that would dare to touch farmers right now. The other side would quickly retaliate with accusations to build the electorate. Just recall the fuss around teachers and miners when somebody was trying to do anything about these early retirements. We've got "pomostówki" now... The society is getting older, we need a strong party that's gonna reform the whole retirement sector without looking at the angry mob...

I think that it is not so hard as it seems. Thing is not "to touch farmers" as a whole, but only big ones. It is small percent, and even in the country people are angry that big farmers hardly pay any taxes. The problem is that Samoobrona and PSL are mostly parties of interests of this upper part farmers population, and they've managed to be part of almost every goverment.

Teacher and miners is different story because it is always about the whole group.

And we should not touch farmers (for now) if we want to preserve our farming industry, we should however obliterate KRUS.

Any party that's gonna try it gonna be sorry later.. that's what I meant by touching, taking away any kind of privileges will meet with a huge crisicism and the electorate running away to the biggest schemer out there at the time.

I don't see why people which have few hundred hectares of land and making big money don't pay income tax! I don't accept situation when most people with legal job has to pay, and someone with high income don't pay anything except very low land tax. It was understandable in the begining of 90' when there weren't any big private farms and almost all farmers were quite poor. But it changed.


I think it can be done step by step. Few years ago KRUS system were sealed. It became harder to get into it. Before, you've just had to buy 1 hectar of land and you could join it. I don't remeber who made this good deed... Next logical step would be slice it or/and diversifing fees inside this system.

PS. he he, I've make an effort and checked KRUS website, they've actually diversified fees since 01.10.2009. But they are still lower than ZUS...

krus.gov.pl/aktualnosci/dokument/artykul/wkrotce-nowe-zasady-podlegania-ubezpieczeniu-spolecznemu-rolnikow-i-wymiaru-skladek

Because Western Europe aims to monopolize the farming industry and destroy our farmers to be able to sell us their excess crops, the richer our big farms are the more competetitive they'll be on a hostile market.

Prove it :-) I don't know, maybe you right. But as far as I know:
- foreigners can't even buy freely any farming land in Poland till 2016
- medium prices for medium quality farm land in Poland are already close to prices in east Germany and France
- amount of support for polish farmers will level to old members the latest in 2013

So, why I as a taxpayer should sacrifice myself in order to save farmers (few percent of GDP btw) from some imaginary enemy? If it is really neccessary shouldn't it rather be common effort supported also and first of all by already rich farmers?

I think threat you are talking about don't exists anymore, but it is still used as an argument in order to maintain current unjust privileges.

why is direct agricultural benefit based on the area cultivated four time as big in the 'Old EU' as in the New 'EU' (Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and some other) - does it affect big farms in Poland as well? - aren't the fuel prices, fertilizer prices and pesti- and herbicides on nearly the same level here as in France, Germany and UK?

there was a coalition forming to get rid of the agricultural benefits (direct help to the farmers) which included the UK, Holland and the new EU countries - it levels the chances - the main opponnents are France, Germany, Italy and I guess Spain - perhaps then even small Polish farms could have a decent income - now the smaller the farm the more burdened it is

I agree it could be an argument to support Sokrates view. But at the same time, the other side argument was that Polish farming industry with full benefit in 2004 would undermine west markets. Besides 25% was in 2004. According to wiki (I know, not the best source) in 2006 it was 58% (but only 42% from EU). I don't know what is value for 2009, I will be glad if you could find it :-)


It weren't in 2004. Back then Poland was much, much cheaper.


Poland is in the second coalition (France,...). I've read that some compromise proposition is to cut it in 2011 but in this way that benefits will be equal for all farmers in EU in 2011. That is why I wrote before, that benefits will level to old members the latest in 2013

PS. Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive, of course that western big farmers would gladly take over our market. But because of the reasons I wrote I don't believe they are capable of this. All this restrictions concerning farming land were wise at the entry time, and some of them are wise even now. But it doesn't mean that one group of society can take advantage of the rest forever.

No, proper education is the key so google with key words being rolnictwo dopłaty zachód.

In a nutshell the West has a policy of undermining our farming industry and strengthening theirs, while normally i would be all for taxation of rich landowners (and its an option for the future) currently its best they keep their wealth to remain competitive in the western markets.


That my good sir is legal protection untill we sort out our laws to prevent abuse, imagine for example Steinbach and Co buying out land in Lower Silesia and then selling it to German nazi organisations, there's other examples but its generally a protective issue untill our economy strengthens enough and our laws are streamlined to a point where we wont be bought out in our own country.


Thats the thieves from PSL and assorted goon squads in action.


Where did you see it? From what i know West is veeeery reluctant to provide equal support to new members agro industry but maybe i missed something.


Free market is hardly imaginary, and you should support our farmers so they can establish themselves firmly on the European markets, when they do we can tax them, not before.


As far as i know nothing changed in western policies as far as agriculture, our farmers received one time dotations and have been cut off from long term funding whereas the western farmers receive prologned and permanent support which in long term can and will bite us unless we negotiate a better deal.

For now lack of taxation (despite PSL not enacting it because its downright corrupt) is a good protective/supportive measure against a very real policy enacted by richer EU states.


When the deal is made we can talk about taxation, dont make the mistake of so many of our politicians who lean on promises, in politics, especially where money and competitive markets are concerned we can talk about a deal when its signed and ratified, before it is we have nothing but empty words.

Untill that time the west continues to fvck with our agriculture and we should not drop any support policies whatsoever.


You're right but having cheap food benefits everyone, having domestic agriculture provides a great deal of security against various natural and economical ordeals, the farmers are sitting on a strategic branch of our economy and need to have those priveliges, when/if the situation allows we should definitely tax them but right now they need protection not taxation.

Proper discussion assume arguments from both sides. I delivered them you didn't (before).
Google is wonderful invention but I hope you don't believe using it equals to proper education ;-)

Back to the point:


You didn't undermine my argument. I agree this protection was necessary. It works.


Lets assume for a moment this is true (again, proves?). Isn't that the same people (PSL equals big farmers) that you want to protect from taxes ? Quite schizophrenic isn't it?


It is in Poland-EU accessing treaty, in the same way as closing German job market for Poles is.


I believe big ones are already there, and there is no need for protection any more. Besides why this what they are doing is more important than that others (me :-) ) do? I don't think that farming is more important that others parts of economy (which doesn't make it unimportant of course :-)). Probably that is the main source of our disagreement.

[quote=Sokrates]our farmers received one time dotations and have been cut off from long term funding/quote]
If you please explain it a little more? some example maybe? Because as far as I know Polish farmers are exactly in the same type of benefit programs but till 2013 they are getting less.

PS. Just to explain. I do agree that some groups of farmers still need other than EU funds support, but simply speaking I divide it into three groups:

1. small farms -> no point of changing anything, lack of taxes equals to social support
2. medium farms -> they need support in organizing cooperative groups, but in the same time they should be slowly get prepared for income tax (so maybe some tax reliefs in the first few years diminishing gradually with EU benefit growth)

3. big farms -> income tax the same as any other entrepreneur, because in fact that is who they are, entrepreneurs not poor farmers.

Well thats my blunder allright but i cant remember all the details, even important ones, you're right.


They're producing food which is the basis of human survival, unless your trade is equally strategic (doctor, soldier) what they're doing is more important.


Thats my bad i mixed farming with fishing (i've cought myself right now when re-reading the accession treaty).


In 2013 when we're at 100% not before, but basically yes, also as far as big and medium farms a different form of tax accounting could be enacted, a low fixed tax for medium farms and a proportional income tax for the big boys but again lets not go crazy.

The key to starting such things though would be uprooting people from PSL who're hindering any and every positive reform.

This years crop of tomatoes imported from Poland was almost as tasty as those from Kent in England, so I hope EU Polish farm subsidies remain to keep up this high quality for years to come :-))

So basically our disagreement is about:
1. timing of introduction of taxation for medium and big boys. Because of PSL if it will be your way (later) then it will be good... so no point of arguing from my side.

2. importance of farming as a part of economy. That would be long discusion I think, so lets leave it the way it is (unless you will find and link here some interesting publication about it ;-) )

Not at as a part of economy (though thats true as well) but as a strategic resource in case of catastrophe, famine or war, thats the basic resource of national independence and the only basic that you cannot live without.


Agreed.

For that we have food reserves. From strategic point of view it is unimportant who produce food as long as it is produced in enough quantity on our territory. This sector is far too diversified to be an object of any foreign power significant influence. Nobody would be able to order to stop harvesting even if entire polish farming industry was for example ruled by dutchmans (which of course wouldn't be desirable but from other than safety reasons)

It is also nice to have independent systems where you know the purity (non-Genetically Modified) of your food sources. Less influence from the huge mega-corporations is a good thing. Not to say a country shouldn't have a strict set of food inspection protocols, though.

Which come from where?:)


Really? So what if there's Europe-wide famine war or someone tries to use food like Russia uses gas, as means of leverage?

Food and farming is the most precious commodity since it allows the very survival of your people.


But farming can through neglect or bad management lose enoug output not to be able to feed the people.

Hm... but all I'm saying is "lets tax the big ones and to some extent mediums". Who do you think is more willingly and effectively will introduce GM? I think big ones.

Another thing is that personally I'm not so sure that GM is pure evil. I think that it just isn't exmined enough... Hm.. off topic.

I agree, most likely some international conglomerate.


Again, I agree, but until you understand what is in it, don't rush to push it down the people's throats. Too many hormones, pesticides and dubious practices being used in mega-farming.

But my position is: even if hipothetically farming sector would in some extent go into foreign hands, then it wan't mean lose output. I intentionally use dutchmans as an example, because some of them managed to gain some farms despite of legal issues. They didn't stop production, they've increased it thanks to bigger acreage and economy of scale. So why not to tax them?

Farming is specific industry. You buy land to produce. That is why I think there is no strategic threat here at all. But of course there are economic issues.

But anyway, it is hipothetical because this legal bariers in general works and farm land is already expensive enough to invalid such risk.

A purely theoretical situation: baby Jesus decides that Europe sucks ass and drops a meteorite on top of Spain, this causes a prolonged winter and shortage of food, Belgium then ships all the crops it can out of Poland and we starve, see my point about strategic value of agriculture?

I see your point. My point is that Belgium wouldn't be able ship all the crops from Poland in that hipothetical situation. That is my point :-) Farming is too diversified and decentralized industry, besides we could always close the borders couldn't we? :-)

PS. by the way, interesting map:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Arable_land_percent_world.png

And my point is that IF we do not have enough control and some sort of crazy sh*t happens we starve, yes it would be difficult to ship enough food out and yes its unlikely we get fragged by some global catastrophe or war but if it happens we're gone.

You can live without electricity, without toilet paper, without everything but food and water so while i'm all for economic liberalism too much foreign capital in that particular field is dangerous.

i have only one message to PO i PIS...

Kosovo je Srbija! Slava Zaviši Crnom!

[Kosovo is Serbia! Glory to Zawisha the Black!]

Zawisha the Black,black snake will eat the albos.

PIS i PO should agree that Slavs needs to stop to retreat, that Kosovo belong to Serbia. Illegal Albanian (Shiftar- as they call themselves) immigrants should go back to Albania (Shiftaria).

Freedom to Serbs, from Balkan to Lusatia! Freedom to all Slavs!

Personally, I really notice little difference between the 2 parties in an everyday context.

The question should be about the most tangible difference between the 2 parties. In a functional sense, what is the most visible difference? Post office reforms? ZUS changes? I just don't see anything that is worth commenting on.

There are not only the Serbs who are upset about albo expansionism.Look at this.Just 4 million albos in the world and they make everybody talk about them.As long as they exist,this is the case.(Who hasn't lost a wallet to an albo?)

the diffrences may come about a couple years later