The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations

Pity you can't hear me. I say one thing and you hear the complete opposite! Anyway, you can probably guess where I'll be tonight, do drop by if you need me to explain any further what I said here.

Well...history is not everybody's forte, isn't it.


*nods* Exactly!

I would agree with you if you would have added "in the cities".


I was told by both ethnic Poles and Germans that you had the choice: sign up for the Volksliste or leave your farm within an hour's notice. The farms were then given to landless ethnic Germans and (later in war) to Lithuanians. To the best of my knowledge there was no slave labour in the area I was talking about, but if you can point me to a source that proves otherwise, I would appreciate that.


Well, you called them traitors yourself in posting #97, didn't you? That's why I used the word in my question.

My own view is that unless every country that lost stuff as a result of WWII can claim back everything that it lost, then picking individual cases only creates greater unfairness for those alive today. There has to be a year zero across the board.

Not really, it was a nationalistic era and attempts at rationalisation are rubbish, most Germans regardless of region were behind their country regardless of what their country wanted to do, some went as far as to kill civilians other as little as nodding approvingly and living on but most were into politics.

Today modern view of people rolling along does not apply to the 30s.


Thats not true, simple as that. Of course there might have been some round ups in specific areas but in general thats just not true, rural Germans were not touched untill 44 and even then those in Germany came first, if you're talking about Poles, the penalty for not signing was forced labor (not the same as concentration camp though sometimes just as bad).


Slave labor was commonplace all across occupied Poland, not all German farmers used it but in truth most did.


Well what region are you talking about? I can research or ask friends for specific sources that will refer to that exact region but i can safely say that there was slave labor everywhere where the German enterprises were.


Because legally a citizen of a country that acts on behalf of forces that seek to destroy said country commits treason, however the case of German citizens has deeper moral implications.

Germans stole Polish land, Poles got it back and Germans were obviously unhappy about losing governance, especially since Germans born on occupied Poland were not the same Germans who stole it 100 something years before and felt they have full right to Polish land.

This created an atmosphere where Polish citizens of German descent openly pledged alliegiance to Germany, acted against Poland and were Polish citizens by legal terms only, you cannot treat a long standing enemy as a traitor just because his legal situation makes him your citizen.

So yes legally they commited treason but I do not view them as traitors, simply enemies who found themselves within our borders due to historic turmoil.

The term matters because for example Jews who pledged loyalty to the Polish goverment and then sided with Soviets deserve to be called traitors and on a personal level i view a traitor as something much worse then a simple enemy, no matter how bad said enemy is.

Because it is...

A stab in the back will be always much worse than the fight with the enemy up front!

Sokrates
Sorry, I do not have enough time today to answer in detail. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

BB:
"Well, you got it (with interests) now shut the **** up!"

You should better shut up! germans distroyed HALF of Poland's economy, killed 20% of population and completly distroyed Warsaw. Losts are estimated to be as high as 700 billions of dollars or even reach 10^12. Tell me when did Poland received this money form Germany?

You got good german land for it...care to give it back? We can talk about money then...

Won't take long until someone will show up and tell you that this land had been Polish anyway in 2000 B.C. ... :)

Heh:)

We got about 80 thousand sq. km less than we lost to the Soviet Union
that's more than the entire area of Czech Republic, Ireland or Austria :|

Besides, Polish national identity was always defined by 4 cities - Lwów,
Wilno, Warszawa and Kraków. Out of those four cities we were left
with Kraków only (Warsaw is not the same city it was after being razed
to the ground during WW2 and even Kraków changed its character during
communist times with the addition of some ugly suburbs like Nowa Huta,
but that's another matter).

Soviets took our Kresy, our eastern frontier - the areas of culture, history
and legends, with Wilno, Stanisławów and Lwów and for that we got Olsztyn,
Wrocław and Szczecin.
I'm not saying it's a sh*itty trade, but it's not a great one either.

We lost 12 million people, including 6 million dead (3 million Poles and 3 million
Polish Jews), lost our Kresy, lost most of our elites and intelligentsia, suffered
incalculable financial losses and became a Soviet sattelite for 45 long years.

But, hey - we got Wrocław and Szczecin!

I'm against demanding any further reparations from Germany. I think we should
leave the history to historians and move on in the new, common Europe.
I just don't like to hear that Poland received enough reparations for WW2 in form
of our current western lands, because we lost more and better lands in the east
and for all the other enormous losses we suffered we got sweet f**kall.


come and get it :)


Well, it had been ;)

"Good german land" you say ? What was so good in It ? Ruined cities we had to rebuilt ? Besides It wasn't any gift from Germany, you (and we too) had nothing to say about It. Soviets deided about It to somehow "compensate" us for the lands in the east they took for themselves.


Does It matter ? Aren't we all now together in the super duper EU, the greatest achievement in the history of mankind, where even cows' sh*t turns immedietely into luxury commodities once It cross the border of this outstanding empire ?

Just curious...
If Dariusz was a Jew
What would the responses be?