The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations

Thanks for the input...obviously this is a hornets nest. As is the participation of Norwegians in the waffen ss who came back to Norway, believing they were fighting against communism, only to be imprisoned by the new Norwegian government when they came back. It's a no no topic in Norway.

I see people have clear and hard opinions on this subject matter, so I won't bug you any more with this. If I have any rights, I will soon find out via my lawyer. If I don't, I won't really loose any nights sleep over it. I'll move to Poland anyways and pay for it with my own money. But as long as the Polish government left this door open, I have to try it. Like you would have if your grandmother told you that she owned a castle in Poland before the war, and then lost it to the government, but that you might get it back now....TELL ME YOU WOULDN'T TURN UP AND CLAIM IT......unless you are mother Theresa...

So, don't worry Sokrates...I'm not a fake person trying to stir things up. I'm the real deal, Dariusz Telka of Mikolow, Poland. Since I haven't lived in Poland my whole life, and I can't say I know the "mental state", when it comes to things of these matters, (polish/german tension/taken and lost land/the current psychology of the polish people), I might seem like an elephant in a glass house....with my maybe not so diplomatic language. But, then again, some of you haven't excatctly been to diplomatic back at me either...

Dariusz (The Racist, god hating, grandson of traitors who should be bled dry........) Wow...

Well my position, i understand if your ancestors chose to fight for Nazi Germany, the call of duty and all that, but given what Nazi Germany represented i'm against any reparations regardless of whatever legal basis German people in your situation might have.


I would not, and you can of course try but given that your ancestors served in Wehrmacht your chances to get anything except for a nasty look from a judge are abysmal.

There's a thousand legal obstacles that will be made, every administrative procedure that normally takes days will stretch out into weeks, documents will be lost and so on, in the end you wont get a penny.

I speak from experience since i have a German friend who's family tried to get back a house here in Wrocław and had a rock solid legal basis to do so, after 11 years of legal struggle and even petitioning Brussels they just gave up.

Speaking for my family, we owned a house and a small manor in Lwów (today Ukraine) and while we made friends with people who live there we dont try to claim it so there's your answer, and i'm definitely not a bloody Mother Teresa, she was tiny and fugly and mingled with blacks.

No crime here.


No I'm not mother Theresa, and no I would not want to claim a castle if I had the chance, being in construction I know what it takes to maintain a mansion and large estate, try and imagine maintaining a castle, no thanks.

My family had property, but they were peasants and their holding were modest to say the least, a typical farm plot in a village. They were a lot more free than people living in urban areas, communism didn't really effect the villagers, probably because they were villagers and had nothing worth taking to begin with, expect a pain in the ass livelihood. Who wants that? The property my family has was honestly earned, so we don't have the problems that the descendants of the 'better half' have.

Hehe..I know, I was just trying to say "wow, castle", but I've been on Gratka.pl and seen the castles that they have for sale, or mansions, and you get a frikking humongous monster of a place with a lake, towers, forest, ball-rooms, and 49 bedrooms..but after the first tickeling sensation when you see the price...maybe....3 million zloty....you think, wait, how much is it going to cost to heat up that frikking place?? And who's gonna mow the lawn...and paint the tower... But it's the thought of just being able to maybe get something like that.

Anyways, I respect Sokrates and your (MarcinK) decision not to would have tried to get anything back like that. Maybe I'm too much of an Norwegian who thinks everything is possible and that the system works for everybody. Here in Norway everyone gets everything, and nobody get nothing. But maybe Poland has a different way of life, a different way of surviving. I remember my first encounter with the Polish bureaucracy at the town hall in my hometown. There was a waiting room. We were in next. After 5 minutes the door goes up and an older man comes out yelling, "Ku**a", and slams the door. Then we hear the secretary from the office, "Next!". But it went ok. Only had to go to every office in town 3 times that week, and buy "stamps", to make documents official. At least we supported the local restaurant business with our daily breakes from the carousel called "You have to get that paper at the other office".

So, what have I learned from this thread.

- Forget about old land that your family owned.

- Poles with german ancestry might receive some negative vibes if their past is known.

- Poles with german ancestry who try to get som land back should not do this, but if they do, the system will wear you out, and your neighbours are gonna poop in your mailbox.

That's ok. I'm not gonna be a firestarter, I just need my chair and a Tyskie under a tree.

Dariusz

In Poland it seems to be that the system is: nothing is possible and it works for only a few people.


Ha ha. I'll never forget what the bureaucrat told me when I wanted to get a copy of my parents birth certificate in order to renew my passport. He asked me why do I need their birth certificate, I said to get my passport in order, then he repeated, why do I need their birth certificate, then I said you got to be fu*king kidding me. We went back and forth until he finally got tired of asking the same question and realized I wouldn't leave till I got it, and finally got off his throne and did his job.


There are methods where you can wear out the system by being a giant pain in the ass. However you need peasant resolve and a whole lot of patience.


Our coping method.

Treaty of Versailles former Polish land fell under German control and in some area they had election on which side they want to on but the germination of that are ware going on science partitions in 1798 and Polish population ware not allow to own property as Germans move Germans in and stole Polish property then they claim in 1918 it's their land that is why Poles took to arms to unite with Poland as Versailles treaty was not favor Poland it ignore borders before partitions.

Because Norway has the money to make the system work.

Poland doesn't. Many of the people running things were trained in the Communist era and quite honestly don't have the thinking processes of someone brought up in the modern age. Look at the system for swimming pools - it's impossible to get a monthly pass for a swimming pool!

But you should listen to what people are telling you. It's simply not that easy to go to court and get your money back - the Polish legal system is horrifically inefficient, and if investigations show that your grandfather(s) had less than a perfect Polish history, you're going to struggle to get sympathy for your cause.

Incidentally, what nationality was the lawyer that you contacted?

Organise a guerilla movement. The government will give you fooook all. Nobody will give you fook in this world, you have got to take it.

You come from a family of traitors because your grandpa joined the Werhmacht. Than was treason. I'm sure he was a cook, though, and didn't kill any fellow countrumen.


With 22 posts you might qualify as a troll, sir.


Very disapointing, BB. You quoting Goebbels is beneath you.

Dariusz, save your money and buy property in Poland, and believe me, 100 hectares is not worth millions.

(it is snowing in Warsaw now)

What has the Blood Sunday in Bromberg to do with Goebbels? Did he kill all the german civilians?

And I would be careful to call anybody and his grandmom a traitor just because he didn't want to fight for Poland...
Poland in this time was not exactly comfy to his minorities (especially the Germans) in their new republic, dreaming of an ethnical cleansed Greater Poland.

Most Germans weren't asked if they wanted to be Poles! (And there where they had been asked the opinon was very clear about it)

You should stay away from Nazi websites, BB.


Polish citizens fighting for Nazi Germany were traitors. Full stop.

Gen. Anders obviously didn't agree that they were traitors, as many of his re-enforcements at Monte Cassino came from Poles previoulsy conscripted into the Werhmacht.

Well...you are admiring China too...something is seriously off with you!


Yeah...I can envision it:

...at the POW camp:

"Hey...you being a Volksdeutscher?
"Umm...ja..."
*pistol get's pointed at his head*
"You for sure want to fight for the good Poles now, won't you!"
*gulp*
"Sure...sure...I always wanted to, the bad Germans forced me but now
I'm happy to fight for my real home country as a true Pole!"

With respect, however you envision it is immaterial really.

The point is that Gen. Anders, nor his troops that had come out of USSR, treated these Poles as traitors; anymore than the millions of Poles pressed into forced or slave labour camps by the Germans were traitors.

But much more to the side of reality as you would like to think!
It happened to german Alsatians too and in many other countries who got their hands on german soldiers from their countries...
The men were faced with two dreary choices, changing sides very quickly or getting shot as "traitors"!
Don't tell me it isn't true...

Many who worked or fighted for Germany were neither pressed nor forced but of course after the war was lost nobody would admit it to save their skin. Now everybody and his grandmom became a victim suddenly...get real man!

Even the Germans ;-))

It really is not that clear cut. If they had been given no real choice (e.g. "Join up or your family go to the camps") or if they thought that they were fighting for Poland (choosing Nazi oppression over Soviet oppression), they were no more traitors that Poles who stood ready to fight for a government which was on the opposing side to Poland's during the cold war.

Let's not be legalistic. It was clear cut back then; you were either a Pole and you fought for Poland, or you were a piece shite and fought for the other side. Full stop.

What of the Poles who fought for the Soviet Union? Pieces of **** too?

Was your dad one of them? Many? I doubt it.

90,000 odd from memory.

That many Folksdeuche shite?

And the Poles who stood ready to drop bombs on Poland when ordered to do so by American leaders? What about them? The ones who would have dropped nuclear bombs on Poland if Americans told them to. They fought (or at least were ready to fight) for what they thought was best for Poland. Are they traitors in your eyes too?

BTW: my memory is wrong, there were 89,300 members of the Western Command Polish army who were ex-German forces.

angelfire.com/ok2/polisharmy/chapter1.html

You have broken the rules we have agreed on. Good luck.

No I haven't. I asked if those servicemen were also traitors in your eyes. I very clearly state my own view: somebody who thinks that he is fighting for what is best for Poland and fighting solely for that reason can not be a traitor.

Well...that's why the Treaty of Versailles couldn't work.
Poland did not only aquire masses of german territory but also german cities, towns and millions of Germans!
You don't really expected them to die for despised Poland, don't you...
The Poles during the partititions didn't became Prussians, Austrians or Russians, didn't they?

Traitors to their prussian, austrian, russian rulership too?

Jola even without reading i realise that Harriet is a stupid little sh*t but posting rubbish like you do doesnt do our case service.

People were made to serve under pain of death, theirs and their families, if you were in Wehrmacht your family received documents that would save them from forced labor, get them decent food when everyone else starved and if you refused off to the camps go you and your family.

Now if a Pole was serving willingly and actively thats a different case but most served because the alternative was death for them and their families.

As for Germans? Legally they were traitors but lets not kid ourselves, German minority was never Polish, these guys were enemies of Poland and thats all there is to it.

You are generalising. What about all those ethnic Germans who didn't care about politics? I know for a fact (from eye-witness reports of farmers from the Poznan area) that many of those people lived together peacefully with their Polish neighbours. Are they still traitors in your eyes simply because they were ethnic Germans?

That's why Hitler dismissed The Versaille Treaty in his Mein Kamf. German territory my arse, gerry.

I do hear you, Sokrates.

In the 30s very few people didnt care about politics.


And then they used Polish slave labourers, if its any consolation most of them were nice to their slaves.


Germans in the 30s were our enemies, calling them traitor is rubbish, traitor is someone who has alliegiance to you and breaks it, Germans in Poland had alliegiance to Germany and made no secret of it.