Thank you Ireland... EUCCP

Yeah, Down with the Union..., Lets keep our identities.

a a a a a not that fast. Speaking strategicaly...

Poland first needs to secure its southern and eastern flanks and rear (inside of Slavic world), to restore its position as one of biggest centers of Sarmatia Europae, to reconfigure its position in Visegrad alliance, to accept and deal with its responsibilities in Slavic world, to approach to Russia as partner not as enemy, ...

That way, Poland would profit from both- from its Slavic heritage and from fact that it is great Catholic country.

First step would be to annul Kosovo recognition and support rights of Racowie. Wash your hands from trechery Poles! you don`t need that on your eternal soul

Update on EUCCP vs Europeans:

"The Irish will have to vote again," Mr Sarkozy told deputies from his UMP party in a meeting in his office, several of those present confirmed.

He is so great for the Irish, the French were not even allowed to vote again! Sacreble!

Ireland must decide by October what to do about its rejection of the EU's Lisbon Treaty, the bloc's commissioner for external relations declared Friday.

hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9467473.asp?scr=1

One could think that they already decided...

I also would wish all Polish recent elections repeated and accepted only when my favorites would won. Apparently EU-socialists are more equal than the rest of human garbage!

I'm curious about opinions of those posters from the EU member states who spend so much time in this forum criticizing neocons.

I am going to be following this one.
I know democracy is mob rule but I still believe in it.
If there is another vote, which there seems to be, what happens if the answer in "No" again? do we get kicked out?

And if it is a "yes" vote what does that tell you? to keep having vote's until you get the "correct" answer, either way it looks bad, but I will read up more.

I'm not even European, and this scares the @#$p out of me. Perhaps one has to be European to understand, but it makes me nervous that the EU seems to want to subject its will on the member states and in effect cancel out their individual sovereignties....somebody or other is becoming more and more powerful.

Just an observation. Good for Ireland, IMHO. Economic unions are one thing. Giving up sovereignty to some other newly formed power that seems to be continuing its increasing power...well I believe Ireland did the right thing and the EU should respect their wishes.

Of course, I'm just an American. I could have this all wrong.
John P.

Hey, it may be a leaky ship, but it still sails...

Lets look at what prominent German EUcrats have to say:

Iren sollen über EU-Mitgliedschaft abstimmen
bild.de/BILD/news/politik/2008/06/17/irland-soll/ueber-eu-mitgliedschaft-abstimmen.html

"If the rest of the EU states would ratify, while the Irish wont present any solution then question arise about their full membership."Martin Schulz, the chief of socialistfraction in the EU-parliament.

"The Irish took advantage of their democratic right to say 'no'. Howeverit is clear that we cannot create for them any special regulations. In the EU there is no such thing that all accept new rules and just one country stay aside."Günter Verheugen, EU-commissioner.

By the matter of fact there is no such paragraph in the rules of the EC that would allow them to kick Ireland out. However there is such "rule" of Soviet jurist Andrey Vyshinskiy (He was awarded the prestigious Stalin Prize) which say "Give me a person and I will find proper paragraph." Perhaps in this place I should remind that the Soviet Union also considered itself to be democratic.

By the way, do you recall any other state or at least some quasi-state (except the EU and the SU) run by Commissars?

The EU tripped itself up here by drafting provisions which allowed for the indefinite stymying of progress. Ireland was merely exercising the most sacrosanct of democratic rights, the right to vote 'no'. Ireland has really prospered under the EU's various schemes but it is not the booting boy of the EU. Politics is inextricably intertwined with business and Ireland knows that well.

It's quite humorous how the EU has brought this on itself.

This is not just Ireland. Voters in France and Netherlands also rejected delusional project of Brussels bureaucracy. People in other states were stripped any possibility to decide.

However I also find their comments funny. Some time ago I realized that EUcrats are not any democrats. This is funny how they simultaneously praising democracy and raping democratic rules. How they smile lying in your face, in front of TV cameras. How many of you would manage to do that?

Megalomaniacs R Us

Even self-proclaimed Democrats don't really know how true democratic processes work.

Some democracies are more democratic than others.

The Democratic Republic of... always signifies a complete lack of democracy.

Sweden seems to have embraced democracy really well. I don't know which country really serves as the true exemplar of democracy.

The Democratic Republic of Congo, hmm...

Vast majority.


I hope this is not an exuse for the EUcrats?


When political elites refuse to recognize the results of three referendums in a row, this is complete lack of democracy per se.


Sweden is one of these states which stripped their citizens an opportunity to speak out. This is how they adopted democracy.


In the EU you wont find any for sure. However I mentioned such state several times before, this is Switzerland. If they would want to join the EU then they would need to abandon democracy.

an interesting article form Le Monde Diplomatique

European style: nobody loves it
mondediplo.com/2008/07/01european

Interesting and true

Well, even a blind socialist like this author see that something really stinks in the EU.

I was wondering what political orientation do you represent?

but then, it doesn't really matter. The problem with EU is that it is not gonna go away. I just think that it was inevitable for Poland to join.

mondediplo.com/2008/07/08europe

I'm a rightist = conservative liberal (in European sense). However lets concentrate on the EU and Ireland.


Conclusion from your post would be that people don't really need democracy. Correct?

Breaking news:

All of EU Europe will have a chance to vote specifically on the Euro Consitution/Lisbon in next June's Parliamentary elections

no. Poland really didn't have a choice and it chose the lesser evil. Is that clear or do I need to elaborate on that?

Poland has much more freedom that it had during the communist times or does it not?

This is probably the best way out?.
Ireland has voted "NO" so let all other European countries vote?.

---

I do not know what this guy's agenda is...


Ireland too is much better economically because of the E.U. but I think the problem is of fundamental democracy. Not wether or not we did the right thing but wether we are doing the right thing.

If the EU want the people of Europe to be legally "it's" citizens it had better ask them.

A single issue agenda, in his own words:

multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-071508a.wvx

Nice one Gael F.
All other E.U. countries must be aloud to vote on this, it does seem to be the only way forward. I think it would satisfy everyone. But Ireland should not vote again, the mere concept of voting again is rubbish.

This is OUR constitution, we need to agree on it before we go forward.
I am pro E.U. but only if it is truely democratic.

---

P.S. Thank you Poland "polish president" for backing Ireland in our desicion to vote "NO". I just hope you get the chance to vote "yes" or "No" it is not as important as being democratic.

This guy Ganley is as shady a character as you could find. He is a multi-millionaire who made his money in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. In addition, he was involved in the Albanian Pyramid scheme debacle and he now has tele communications contracts from the US military in Iraq.

This article gives an insight into who and what he is.

indymedia.ie/article/87311

He is therefore linked to the American military neo-cons. I would suggest strongly examining credentials before offering him any support. Anyway, while he is claiming to have been the reason for the Irish No vote, the reality is that it was a mish mash of various groups including Marxists and the extreme right who campaigned against the Treaty.

IMO the vote was a protest vote against the Government in light of the fact that Ireland has slipped into recession and people are not happy generally. If it had been run a year earlier, its likely that it would have been passed.

Sarkozy, however has ensured that it will not be passed even if another one is held. His arrogance has been astounding and he is quite clearly an idiot. No country will do what the head of another tells it to in the tone that he has adopted. In the case of a country such as Ireland which was occupied for hundreds of years and which still has a strong folk memory of same, it is a definite no-no. The French diplomatic service must be embarrased by the antics of this jumped up little clown. He seems to crave attention, almost like a spoilt child.

fair enough, but blaming EU for not having the democracy in Poland or Ireland is kind of immature since both of those countries accepted what comes with the EU.

You cannot have both; the subsidies, improving economies and full democracy because EU has its own agenda towards those countries. So the lesser evil IMO is to accept the EU and try to bargain. As we well know that (negotiating) hasn't been well received by EU and the false promise of democracy has been revealed in the process.

My question is: what other choices does Poland have. I am just being realistic. It is nice to have democracy but as we all know that kind of system is full of traps.

It is like with feminism at times. Women enjoy its benefits but don't want to be associated with it, because is smells of hard core, so they just implement what suits them.

Actually it was a good article from the laughable commies at indymedia distraught and confused at finding themselves on the same side as Ganley.

indymedia.ie/article/86857

You would think, but in general a large proportion of people have very limited understanding of what the EU is all about, if you are in favour you see the benefits, if you are against you see the negatives...I think people need to be educated and made to understand.

There is a very fine line here...

Is this a matter of education or indoctrination?

The problem who should vote is not new one, actually the whole world history is based on it or is better democracy or autocracy? If u just check out only last couple hundred years in Europe and US all is about that. Does everybody have right to vote without any exemptions? That question has been asked by many most famous thinkers before, during or after European revolutions. So education may have to be solution but for how many, have you ever seen guest from Jerry Kyle show? Do they have to have right to vote? Are they credential voters ?Ask yourself these questions, answers are not easy.

Where is the fine line?


Surely an educated person is far better at making an "informed" judgement as opposed to an ill educated person who follows the pack and votes simply because everyone else did?


I was merely trying to point out that there are a lot of people who don't fully understand the the mechanics of the EU and how their country is affected by being a member, who from their country is protecting their country's rights and what is to be gained and what is to be lost by being a member.