Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

Listen, this killing was an act of barbarism...But I must question why a person with any intelligence or awareness of current events would go to work in a volatile place like NW Pakistan which is the conflict zone for US/NATO/CIA/Taliban forces and the tribal center of many fanatical Muslim elements?...And Poland with troops in Afghanistan?...Why?...As a sop to EU masters?

Maybe he wants to help out? Gets paid good money? Wants to make a difference in the world? Has the qualifications? Do not put the blame on him.

Poland, as a member of NATO would be obligated to send troops to Afghanistan, no?

It is ironic but it still amuses me that I've been living in a "lions den" all my life :)

Would you be afraid to go back to Pakistan? No offence, but I won't be booking my holidays there anytime soon.

The Tribal Area tour, nah, I'll give it a miss.

Well not really, I might actually go there around easter holidays, as they say, fear of the unknown is the worst. Last time I went there for holidays, it was during the Red mosque episode and I live in Islamabad too. Besides you are more likely to get hit by a truck given the fact that all truck drivers are drunk/high, than being blown up in a blast. I put my trust in statistics :)

As for the tribal areas, it has always been a tricky business. Even before 2001, they used to warn people including Pakistanis before they tried to enter the tribal areas that if you cross this line, you're on your own buddy. Historically the common/slang term used to describe tribal areas can be translated in English as "the unknown areas". These days they don't let anyone go there who has no business there.

Interestingly, those numbers come from who? Last I checked alledged numbers here in Iraq have been called into account and those who (made up?) the numbers either could not or would not provide how they arrived at their numbers. It definitely wasn't from a count. Some have even suggested his estimates were exponentially higher than reality. If similar methodology was used by those in other wars, well hey, we might as well just make them up.


Funny...they believe a lot of things, but somehow I doubt ANY of them have been to any secret prison, nor have they confirmed anything happened as this man claimed. They can suspect all they want, but that is not the same as proof.

Forgive my incredulousness when someone is made a celebrity in a time when it is popular to slam the US policy on terror...claims a "secret" prison tortured him for "years"...(all to the "knowing" looks from pampered producers) but no one asked the questions, like...how he "knew" anyone capturing him was CIA or, for that matter, if all these illegal acts supposedly were already happening to him...why would such monsters not simply shoot him in the head and leave him somewhere?

Heaven forbid anyone suggest the man made up the story, it simply doesn't ring true unless some really important key information is missing.

Does ANYONE validate people anymore, or do they simply put a camera and microphone in front of the first guy that has a good story about what the dirty Americans did?

I mean honestly, the crap people expect us to believe because it SOUNDS JUICY on TV is pretty thick. Perhaps I want to be famous...I could go on and on about how Gordon Brown, Barack Obama, and the Pope all kept me in a secret compound as a child where they abused puppies, and oh yeah...(see what I mean? ) So there's a lot left out of the story to expect me to believe it.


I'm not the one making the accusations here. I can look around me and see what is happening, and more importantly, what is NOT happening...then I listen to people like you trying to tell me what I see is wrong, because, from the comfort of your chair you heard about it or read about it, from still someone else who heard it from THEIR chair. You presume guilt without even knowing if a crime has been committed. At least I ask the "why, and how do you know" questions. You simply parrot accusations you've heard from others, without knowing really if they are true or not. Perhaps you don't consider this drinking coolaid, but it definitely isn't demonstrative of an inquisitive mind.

John P.

You think you can factor down a few hundred thousand dead to less than 3500? You are the kind of optimist who should be working for the bank of England, John. You really are wasted here. The fact stands that, by any reckoning, the terrorist acts on the US are a drop in the ocean compared with the crimes and human tragedies committed by America over the last century.


and rightly so. How many terror attacks have there been on the US or UK in the past few years? 1 or 2. Does this really constitute a war? Of course it doesn't. There are no terrorists outside my door wanting to kill me. There are no Mad Mullahs wanting to kill me. There are no secret nuclear bombs hidden in suitcases outside my door that can be used to kill me. There is no threat to my way of life. Apart from the policies of US banks which have screwed the world's economies.

Perhaps these heads of the banks should be snatched off the streets by the CIA and tortured eh? Perhaps they have some valuable knowledge on 'Al Kaieda' and their plans to destroy the world?


You can do that, but it won't go to trial. Unlike the cases of people who HAVE been 'rendered'.

So says you... of course, "over the last century" doesn't leave quite a few countries spotless. Still, what YOU perceive to have happened 100 years ago has no bearing on whether someone should sit on their laurels on the global stage today.


Why do you think this is, exactly...


We can hope not.


Wrong, unless you mean only in the specific sense...


Again wrong


Seems ALL the banks have been doing this...although I'm sure you only see evil when it flies an American flag...greed is greed and it knows no nationality.


You are being ridiculous, here...


I am still awaiting your evidence...otherwise this is all bluster and hearsay by people with political motive. You make accusations as if this is all common knowledge, providing links that explain why these stories are verifiable...you have not done, for some reason.


I stand by this point. Until you provide something that uses more than hearsay. I want to know why some horrible acts could be committed for years on someone only to release them. If such things were really happening and were really a secret...what is the explanation given for such a person going through what is alledged....and then being left alive? Show me this, otherwise your examples are not credible as they do not fall within the reasonable man confines.

John P.

I'm coming to the party a bit late but.......is anyone seriously questioning whether rendition takes place ?

One of the first acts of the Scottish government was to stop US rendition flights using Scottish airports.

The UK government had to apologise for being involved in this, after denying in 2005, 2006 and 2007 that rendition flights landed in the UK.

The EU government has expressed concern to sevral member states after compiling a report on extraordinary rendition.

The CIA are fighting to keep 7000 docs out of the public arena because they contain information about rendition.

Some people doubted me when i said the Polish government knew the identity of ther scum who beheaded this Polish man.....Today on the news they announced....that they knew who the killers were.....The reward money has been put up so the government does not have to admit to getting these bad guys , they know that somebody will come forward to do the job... i can think of several people who might be packing a bag right now......

Yes, you are quite late...the conversation has progressed quite a bit. No one (not even me) was saying "rendition" or whatever you want to call it...flights did or did not take place. The only challenge I make is that it has not been established what the secret flights were actually doing. It is quite easy to make accusations, but proving them is another matter. Just like your assumption that


This last part, while possibly true, is completely speculation on your part or that of the original source you got it from.


This is why it always surprises me to hear people (not just Americans but Brits too) wonder why we haven't invaded Pakistan...it's not like the government is completely an enemy, but somewhere in between. They have to deal with the people they govern, not the people we wish they governed. Must be a tough job.

There are lawless places in a lot of countries. Pakistan does not have the monopoly by any means.

John P.

I think that they know nothing, just pretend to look good.

This is possible, or then again perhaps they do know who these people are. The trouble with televised executions and such by terrorists...is that even though they cover their faces they often crave fame. Everyone talks. "you know, I'm not supposed to say anything, but did you see what so and so did, and video for entire world!??? " eventually they brag to the wrong person. Or someone else they slighted recognizes them and makes a phone call.

Which, I guess, if you plan to be a "martyr" anyway...doesn't matter so much.

John P.

Polish reporters have spoken to the guy who was in touch with the group who killed him , he has named the group , they are known to local people....and i suspect by now their location is known....

This was maybe a blessing in disguise and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Maybe Pakistan will start valuing international opinion and allow revenge squads in.

A War on Terror should not be impeded like it is.

It was the CIA who said the CIA had these.

szkotja...reread above. Nobody (not even me) says they did or did not have flights...but what their purpose exactly or what happened on them...it has not said, to my knowledge; it has only been accused. Maybe they are exactly what you say they are...but likewise your statement that so many documents were being withheld...does not prove in fact the reason for their being witheld. It may have nothing at all to do with what you think it does. After all, every flight here in Iraq...is also secret. Even the mundane, dropping off the mail kind of things. The purpose...may or may not be what we think it is.

Likewise there is probably a different reason for witholding those documents, especially if it is as you imagine, common knowledge that there are rendition flights specifically for torture or some such. I would imagine often the reason for secrecy is a lot less glamorous or interesting.

John P.

2 secs on google gets you this, and many other examples. Swedish government apologises -

SWEDEN: Ahmed Agiza "rendered" by US agents from Sweden - although still in prison in Egypt - to get compensation. Ahmed Agiza, one of the two Egyptians who was "rendered" from Bromma airport by US agents, with the assistance by the Swedish secret service (security police) to Egypt, and there tortured and sentenced to 25 years (later changed to 15 years) prison, is to get approximately 330,000 euro in damages from the Swedish state. He is still in prison, and had demanded 35.000.000 Swedish crowns (about 4.000.000 euro) in damages, but now the Chancellor of Justice has come to an agreement with his lawyer to accept 330.000 euro.

The decision to allow the rendition was taken by Anna Lindh (at the time Minister for Foreign Affairs, later assassinated) and Thomas Bodstram (Minister of Justice) and led to Sweden being criticised by the UN Committee against torture (pdf). The head of the Security Service (SS) at the time, Klaes Bergenstrand (who was involved in the Leander case, where he together with Hans Corell produced statements that later forced the Government to give a public apology and Leander appr 45.000 € in tax free damages) died a couple of years ago.

Interesting.
Where in there does it actually say he was tortured by Americans..."rendered" being simply the secret flights themselves? did the Egyptians say they tortured him or something....or did the Swedish feel guilty about being caught turning him in, and pay him? Obviously if he was innocent, they would probably even try to get him released...something they didn't do.

Politicians make decisions based on public opinion and outcry, but not necessarily the truth. That said, that link is getting there at least. It isn't established in this that the CIA tortured him, honestly not even positive the Egyptians did, but that's up to the Egyptians, not the US...unless the Egyptians said they did those things to him, it is just as likely to be an allegation of someone wanting to be freed who thought himself previously untouchable(?)

John P.

This is the point, its torture by proxy.

You have to admit your argument is a bit thin at this point.

Whats next ? "Yeah, but it wasn't American electricity that was passed through him !!!"

Anyhow, this is detracting from the thread title.

Seanus, I was reading about the Mossad and 9/11 online and did you know the Mossad had intelligence information gathered, the Egyptians tried to warn the US but they weren't taken seriously? The Egyptians were warning months in advance about Al Queada/Bin Laden operatives planning an attack.

It wasn't like the Mossad was in on it, just gathered intelligence and gave the intelligence to the US.

I know this, yes. Not only the Egyptians, 7 other intel agencies plus numerous isolated reportings. Russia, Morocco, Britain, Germany, France, Italy and even Sudan proferred info.

Look at 9/11 truth, they have MANY instances charted chronologically. You can question the veracity as you should but they can't all be lies.

The only thing I disagree with is your final part. The Mossad DIDN'T provide key info to the US govt and that was the problem. They were tracking the terrorists for months but didn't even inform top personnel. Rumour has it that some did but the barrier between the FBI and CIA was just too large.

I can post you all number of credible sources on request. Make a study of it, you will unearth some startling revelations.

Honestly I had posted that part about Mossad in sarcasm, but unfortunately the last part of your statement here rings all too true. Everyone has their little piece and they guard it.

Supposedly it's a lot more streamlined today, but who knows.

Back to the original topic, I think that even when GROM or US or Pakistani forces get the offenders who beheaded this man, it won't matter...the zealots that create such people will see him as a winner either way. If they get away with it, then they have poked the eye of the west (yes, Poland is included here...) and if they do not, they have become "martyrs" while ...poking the eye of the west.

We can hope to deter those who are not QUITE as strong in their convictions. Make it more obvious to them that doing such things lands them in the latter category more than the former...

John P.

Nonetheless, we need to look beyond martyrdom as it is a mainstay in their mindset. We have to look at our values of justice and retribution and act accordingly. To do otherwise would be to admit that the whole underpinning rationale of the War on Terror is phony ;) We can scarcely afford to make such dangerous admissions in a political sense. We can't fear martyrdom if we are indeed fighting the good fight.

The reason I think it won't happen like this quite self-explanatory if you observe the circumstances. The place where they carried out this killing is one of their major strongholds. We are not talking about some kidnappers who have rented an empty warehouse in the suburbs where a revenge squad would do the job in a convert operation. It essentially means that in order to get to the kidnappers you will probably have to deal with many many more. So we are likely talking about a full scale military operation equal to an army battle which symbolically equals an act of war. What do you think?

Oh, I agree but should that preclude the trying? This is just the pretext that is needed. I don't like how pretexts are used as political opportunism but it's a sign of the times. Maybe this will show that we can actually value even 1 human life and that war is not all about chalking up stats. Sadly, life doesn't work that way.

Realistically speaking, even if the people of the country agree that the kidnappers should be brought to justice, a presence of a foreign battalion will most certainly raise many eyebrows, people are bound to ask this question what why did this operation need a foreign intrusion and if it were that important, why didn't the Pakistani army carried it out themselves. Times are sensitive and it won't be seen by many as a mere targeted operation but will send out a message that is going to be way out of proportions. On the other hand, it could be left to Pakistani army to do the job which of course will look at all the tactical implications and the pros/cons with estimated losses etc. They will ofcourse have to judge the political weight of the operation. Since the area is under militant's control, therefore it is very likely to be there at the military priority list of potential operations, since it is their problem and as well, considering that the local civilian life loss is also a frequent occurrence, the question is how much they are willing to promote it on the list and if it is tactically viable at all at this point.

Another issue is that even if the identity of the kidnappers is known, they are not some individuals but part of an organization and it won't be possible to take out afew while ignoring the rest. Such operations last for weeks if not months.

In terms of international diplomacy, I think Polish side has also analyzed the situation and probably they will leave the practicalities to the Pakistan army while diverting their own efforts towards diplomatic bargains if at all. In the real world, Polish representatives also have to chalk out their agenda while setting limits on how far they are willing to go with this issue.

Well, vast sums of money have been bandied about. The Polish government, at least last week, were taking this seriously.

There is a video posted on the net where a 12 year old (TALIBAN) is carrying out a beheading of an alleged Spy with the help of other Taliban members ,I did not watch the video itself but the still images and it made me sick ,Is there any religion ,country or race that can condone an act like this.

Apparently yes , the people who carry out this kind of murder are doing it in the name of their religeon....The very fact they video such acts of savagery demonstrates that they not only condone this , but are proud of it.....