Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

Being a Portuguese living in Poland i am one with the people and their anger and outrage over the gastly murder of their country men,i wonder what the government was doing for such a long time ,I do not condone the acts of Israel in Gazza and Lebanon,but what other options did they have ,and if it means collective punishment then so be it at least they do not sit and wait ,and they proved it when one of their soldeirs was kidnapped.

I beleive it would not have been the same story if it was an American or a Brit.

Yes they are but that doesn't mean the religion itself condones this. Those people are nothing but Islamic version of KKKs. They feel equally satisfied after brutally killing a muslim who doesn't agree with them.

I agree with nrx, they are radical fanatics. However, I will also say that more people talk out against fundamentalist Christians in the Christian community than those Muslims who talk out against radical Muslims.

Well thats a bit subjective but Muslims themselves who have to deal with these radicals are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The secular side of affairs is also not very comforting for them since they perceive secularism as something associated with foreign invasions. So yes as a result of circumstances, their opinions are not very black & white as they should be ideally.

Well, foreign invasion has increased the level of support for such radical groups and I don't blame them for doing so. If you know the history of the Taliban before 9/11, you will know why they were angry. The US saw their actions as insubordination. If there were an onslaught on America, a war on their soil, I can guarantee you that if the fundamentalist Christians wielded power and had sway, people would get behind them too.

I am American and it's a damned shame, but I have to keep remembering...this is war and in war...there are no rules. Thing is we have tried to win this war playing fair tactics, but this is a guerilla war...hell, America was won from the British by guerilla tactics. If we had not learned from the Indians to ambush(hiding in trees, behind rocks)...America never would have won the Revolutionary War.

This is sad to hear whenever they have these beheadings...I refuse to even give them the power to go look at them.

Greg

What do these violent people think they're accomplishing? Horrible.

They think they're accomplishing something towards their "death of the infidels" approach.

Alright good answer...a shame still.

what do you guys think of this?

Pakistan Blasted for Creating Taliban Safe Haven With Islamic Law Deal
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,494446,00.html

I think a lot of people will be hot footing it out of that province before some drones start to hone in.

well, this is just another attempt, according to the article. i find it pretty weird. it seems like a set back for the "war on terror" thing.. it also weakens the pakistani gov.

You may as well declare "war on flies" that's about as productive as it's going to be. At least in Afghanistan it's about the size of Texas and it's a lot harder to hurt civilians. So no interesting Canadian footage winding up on the internet. Obama probably floods the area with troops for about 2 years to appease Republican hawks and moves out.

Even Alexander the Great couldn't do much with that area. Screw it.

Greed creates violence, violence brings death and anger. This in turn brings more violnce and more anger - until there seems to be no way out or back. Life is so complicated that it is even difficult to imagine. Greed and arrgance will destroy the world as it is and I think it is for better - let ferns grow here again - they deserve it more than homo f*kience does.

pashtuns have never been conquered or submitted

yep.. those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. so here we go.

remember me mentioning the arbitrary borders? hehe

Well plk123 I can try to explain it a bit. In essence it is so early to say what will come out of this deal. It may well prove to be a good for nothing step and fighting may resume in a week or two but assuming that it works. There are way too many misconceptions surrounding this. First of all, around 1200 civilians have been killed in this conflict and taliban have blown up around 200 girls schools, among many other horrendous crimes. As usual, the western media sees them as one united force. Infact however, there are two groups. One of them with whom, the deal was struck are also conservative but way more moderate than taliban. One example is that their headquaters are set up outside a girl's graduate college with academic activities commencing on as usual. The moderate group called TNSM has been struggling for Islamic law for ages now. Taliban have just joined the party and turned the whole struggle into a bloodbath. However TNSM claims to have influence on taliban and as a result of this deal, they have assured the government that taliban will leave the valley bringing back the peace.

As for the actual deal, it will be nothing like the taliban style sharia you have heard about so much (chopping off limbs, beheadings, beatings etc.) Taliban will NOT enforce this system and infact no new Islamic style judges will be appointed. The same common and criminal law will be applied to the region similar to the rest of the country and this law is a direct derivative of British common law. This valley survives on foreign and local tourism, its a beautiful place and houses a couple of nice ski resorts. Their livelihood depends so much on tourism that they simply cannot afford a taliban style sharia. Until 1969, Swat was an independent state and had their own moderate sharia. After it joined Pakistan, they were included in the regular justice system like the rest of the country. If some of you have heard about the ongoing judicial struggle by lawyers and civil society members in Pakistan, you must be aware that the legal system in Pakistan is expensive and painfully slow. Under the new deal, the locals of the valley will no longer have to travel to their provincial capital for hearings of their cases as a branch of the high court will be opened in their main town. Usually such hearings will go on for years and years. The judges will be the same as elsewhere in the country but they will be bound to solve all cases within three to six months. Morever lawyers will be appointed by the government free of charge to both parties.

The question however is that will TNSM be able to convince taliban to stop the fighting in the valley as a result of this concession. If taliban want their style of brutal law enforcements, then I dont think locals or the government will agree to that and sadly, the fighting will resume. However, even if that happens, it will surely divide TNSM and taliban who have been cooperating since the conflict started. TNSM are mainly locals and though both of them were on the same side upto this point, their ways of fighting were completely different. If this divide between the two groups occur, taliban will definitely find it hard to sustain themselves in the region without the local cooperation.

It was even said by a Russian General that the US and its Allies are making the same mistakes as they did. Losing by force is the way it might be put.

The drone strikes appear to be effective but logistics will assume ever greater importance when we need to get down to the nitty gritty. I just have the vision of Barack Obama sitting idly by in the days of Bush, chafing at the bit. He's gonna really get stuck in.

History repeats itself, especially if we do not pay heed to it. Also, the trouble the U.S. seems to have (my opinion as an American) is that each new administration wants to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, there is no continuity; often policies of the previous administration are pronounced failures for years during a campaign (regardless of whether they really are) and are tossed. This happens every 4 years sometimes 8. So unless total success happens in under 4 years, realistically 2 (the last US Presidential campaign started half way through the last term...) it is doomed to ridicule.

nrx,
as usual I enjoy the insight your posts give. Some of the information I did not know, but ultimately I tend to agree with the parts I do know about. I am not in Pakistan nor Afghanistan, but the first hand knowledge you give puts a lot more into perspective that did not previously seem to make sense.

John P.

Yeah, the objectives should be quite clear but it's amazing how rugged the Taliban is. They have dug their heels in and are in for the long haul. Karzai is becoming more Taliban friendly after repairing old wounds.

I can't say that I would put it on the top of my lists of places to see. I am sure there will be warnings issued by governments warning people not to travel to this area (on top of the existing ones):


And from the Canadian Government

when Soviets invaded Afghanistan their soldiers (not commanders who invaded Afghanistan for much different reasons) thought that are bringing happines for them. Soviets had support from Afghan communists but most Afghans were against them.

To be honest it was Amrican trap (planed by Brzeziński) ... and Soviets were catched in this trap...

Now NATO is there ...

In my opinion this war is mistake, I doubt in democracy there ... maybe in case of long occupation it would be possible but I am not sure about that.

If NATO spend money on anti terrorist protection instead of this war ... it would be much safer in Europe and America.

I completely agree, Prince. Where are the anti-terrorist units, working in concert with INTERPOL? Look at Mirko Crocop in Croatia, the Dream fighter. He did some super work with his unit. Also, other Special Forces for getting into the difficult areas.

It's almost like we are stalling here, letting the terrorists regroup and get back in the game.

Most Afghans are not Talibs, smashing majority of fighting people are doing so because it is tradition. They fought against British, Soviets and now they fight against NATO.

NATO spends bilions on war agains some Afghan peasnants ... and some Talibs.

Instead of spending money on protection and some precise atacks.

I am just thinking ... how it was possible that NATO has been catched in trap invented by America.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

Exactly right. Brzeżinski is a cretin of the highest order. Special operations are the way forward.

Brzeziński is genius. He catched Soviets in Afghan trap and he is against NATO in Afghanistan.

Well, one out of 2 isn't bad.

JohnP, thanks for listening. We need more of that on both sides.


I agree, you shouldn't right now. I am talking of the times before War on Terror started. But I do sincerely hope that this place makes it to your list one day. Presently, there is nothing left of their once cherished tourism industry. Even during the time when it was an independent state with their own sharia, outsiders didn't even notice anything peculiar about their laws. I went there around 2002 and local oldmen were still delightfully remembering the times when American hippies once "invaded" the valley during late 60s and 70s.

On the other hand, in a latest development in the valley, taliban have beheaded a 28 year old outspoken local TV reporter this evening just because they didn't like what he was saying. This act seriously questions their commitment towards finding a peaceful solution. The other armed group, TNSM has protested against their barbaric act, creating the first divide between two groups. If I can notice that, probably Pakistani government also had that in mind when they signed the agreement with TNSM. So even if the peace process doesn't work, government is playing their cards smartly.

he's a pashtun


why not? it was on mine until '01 or so..


not as we know it.


no but most afghans are pashtun and many pashtun are talibis.