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Blood libel fresco in Polish cathedral?


Polonius3 986 | 12,343  
17 Aug 2008 /  #1
A fresco showing Jews draining the blood of a Christian baby for use in making matza (Jewish ritual bread) used to hang in the cathedral of Sandomierz in SW Poland. Anyone know if it is still on display?

Jews have attacked the painting as anti-Semitic and deny that blood libel (mord rytualny) was ever practised by their co-religionists.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,388  
21 Aug 2008 /  #2
This practice did, in fact, take place on numerous occasions, primarily around Purim or Passover, to make a mockery of Christ's crucifixtion...I read an article from a Russian a few months back, about certain incidents of this kind taking place in the past few years in the area around either Novosibirsk or Ekaterinaberg (I forget which one)...it still goes on, but is not an exclusively Jewish practice by any means; rather it is a ritual dedicated to the devil...their are a number of monuments to victims of this practice in various towns and cities in Europe...I have mixed feelings about this mural in a Christian church, as Jesus was the Prince of Peace, and displaying this type of activity in His house is questionable...however, their are many frescoes in churches dedicated to Christian martyrs, so the parishioners who had this frescoe painted probably had their reasosn.
Switezianka - | 463  
21 Aug 2008 /  #3
This practice did, in fact, take place on numerous occasions, primarily around Purim or Passover, to make a mockery of Christ's crucifixtion...

What? Adding blood to matzah?

it still goes on, but is not an exclusively Jewish practice by any means;

It's not a Jewish practise at all. Blood is not kosher, dude. Read some Torah. Or at least some wikipedia.
loco polaco 3 | 352  
21 Aug 2008 /  #4
right, blood is not kosher but if you pray over it it just may become so. lol
dtaylor 9 | 823  
21 Aug 2008 /  #5
It actually steams from a Pagan practise, but rather they used the blood of a pig, than a human. Accounts can be found all over the world. Jewish....? na, not at all.
Switezianka - | 463  
23 Aug 2008 /  #6
right, blood is not kosher but if you pray over it it just may become so. lol

Yeah, if you pray so long that God turns it into water...

Right, to end up this sh*t:

And wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of any bird or animal. If anyone eats blood, that person must be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 7:26-27
joepilsudski 26 | 1,388  
23 Aug 2008 /  #7
THE BEILIS CASE

1911-13. Kiev, Russia: In 1911 a 13-year-old Christian boy's body was found at Kiev on March 12th. After eight days his corpse was found in a brickyard completely slashed to pieces and bloodless. Suspicion fell on the Jewish manager of the brickyard. A Jew named Beiliss was arrested on suspicion. The case did not come to trial until two and a half years later (September 29th to October. 28th 1913). In the intervening period numerous attempts were made to lead the investigating officers on the wrong track. Meanwhile a large number of incriminating witnesses suffered sudden and unnatural deaths; false accusations and confessions followed one after another due to huge money bribes. Behind the accused, lurking in the shadows, was the figure of Faivel Schneerson in Ljubovitschi, leader of the "Sadiks" ("Saints") of the Chassidim sect, who was the spiritual director of the murder. It was proved that the murder took place inside the premises of a Jewish brick factor to which only Jews had access. This factory contained a Jewish hospice with a secret synagogue attached. After long-drawn-out preliminaries, Beiliss, who was proprietor of the factory, was tried; the jury found that there was no proof that he himself was the culprit, although half of them considered he was; the verdict therefore having to be unanimous, he was declared Not Guilty.

But the jury agreed as to the cause of the boy's death; their verdict about this was as follows: "The boy after being gaged, was wounded with a perforating instrument in the nape of the neck, temples and neck, which wounds severed the cerebral vein, the left temporal and jugular arteries, producing thus profuse hemorrhage; and afterwards, when Joutchinski (the boy's name) had lost about five glasses of blood, his body was pierced with the same instrument, lacerating thus the lungs, the liver, the right kidney and the heart, where the last wounds were inflicted, in all 47 wounds, causing acute suffering to the victim and the loss of practically all the blood of the body, and finally death."

However, the trial ended with the release of Beiliss, but at the same time the court established that the murder had taken place inside the Jewish brickyard, which was the religious center of the Kiev Jews, for the purpose of obtaining blood. Almost all of the prosecutors, witnesses, and authorities who had spoken out against Judaism, later fell victim to the Bolshevik Terror.

I could provide many links for you, but you can all 'google' if you have interest in this topic...notable in the Beilis case was the participation of the Schneerson family, the reigning family in the 'Chabad Lubavitch' sect...they were, in addition to being Kabbalists, 'shechats' or kosher butchers....many Russian officials were intimidated in this case, as were witnesses...this case, in a very sick way, gave an indication of events that were to take place when the Bolsheviks took power in Russia...you can also research the famous Simon of Trent case, and many other ritual murders of this kind.

Switezianka - | 463  
23 Aug 2008 /  #8
Oh, Eloheinu, I'm so Lucky!

I went for a beer with two guys from Chabad Lubavitch (yes - the Chassidic sect funded by the Shneerson family) some two weeks ago and they didn't drain my blood! I didn't know my life was at risk!

Next time I see them, I'll kick their asses, yeah!

.they were, in addition to being Kabbalists, 'shechats' or kosher butchers....

The boy after being gaged, was wounded with a perforating instrument in the nape of the neck, temples and neck, which wounds severed the cerebral vein, the left temporal and jugular arteries, producing thus profuse hemorrhage; and afterwards, when Joutchinski (the boy's name) had lost about five glasses of blood, his body was pierced with the same instrument, lacerating thus the lungs, the liver, the right kidney and the heart, where the last wounds were inflicted, in all 47 wounds, causing acute suffering to the victim and the loss of practically all the blood of the body, and finally death."

If you killed a cow this way, it wouldn't be kosher. You really don't need a shochet (btw, that's how a Jewish butcher is called) to do this. A shochet cuts the esophagus and the trachea, not the veins.

If you had the faintest idea about Judaism, you wouldn't believe such bullsh*t.
If you could use your brain, you wouldn't either. The fact that someone was killed in the area belonging to a Jew doesn't not imply that he was killed by the Jews so they could do something that is prohibited by their religion.

Imagine a dead girl was found in your house. Following your logic, I am sure you killed her so that you coul f*ck her corpse. Logic?
joepilsudski 26 | 1,388  
23 Aug 2008 /  #9
Did I say that Chabbad Lubavitch practice this now?...I didn't...Most are good people...however, you should do some reading about the Lubavitchers and thje Schneersons that doesn't come from Chabbad sources...and, also read some of the writings of the Rebbe himself, his ideas about 'Noachide Laws' and his attitude toward non-Jews...you can go right to their own publications for this...there were hundreds of ritual murders committed from the early middle-ages right through the 20th Century...and there is ample evidence in many of these cases...in every religious groups there are fanatics...I would also suggest that crimes of similiar nature have been committed by members of the Catholic faith, and the Anglican also, including pedophile acts and more...so this is not a condemnation of those who practice Judaism...I am merely stating that there is truth here...if you look at the history of so called 'anti-Semitism' in Europe, you will find that it has a basis in the actions of certain individuals and 'sects'...and yes, the word is 'shochet'...Thank you for the correction...Also, I have some idea about the religuion of Judaism, having attended both Purim celebrations, and Pessach dinners...and, no, as far as I know the matzos contained no Christian blood.
Switezianka - | 463  
23 Aug 2008 /  #10
From Purim celebrations, you can only learn how drunk Jews look in fancy dress, lol.

.I would also suggest that crimes of similiar nature have been committed by members of the Catholic faith, and the Anglican also, including pedophile acts and more...

But nobody claims that these were religious rituals. A paedophile minister doesn't rape little boys in order to praise the Lord, does he? So, if a Jew murders someone, it's not because the need blood to make their matzah non-kosher. It's because he's a murderer and it has nothing to do with religion.

Why hasn't anyone ever accused Jews for stealing pigs for Sabbath dinner?
joepilsudski 26 | 1,388  
25 Aug 2008 /  #11
But nobody claims that these were religious rituals

Of course they were religious rituals...They were sacrifices to the devil...and this practice is not new...the Prophet Isaiah speaks of it:

“Against whom do you jest?
Against whom do you open wide your mouth
And stick out your tongue?
Are you not children of rebellion,
Offspring of deceit,
Who inflame yourselves among the oaks,
Under every luxuriant tree,
Who slaughter the children in the ravines,
Under the clefts of the crags?

yehudi 1 | 433  
26 Aug 2008 /  #12
JoeP,
I just came across this thread and it really reveals what you are.
That you can bring up the Beilis case now in 2008 is incredible. Has nothing happened in the past century to change you people? This really shows that no matter what Jews do or don't do, scum like you will hate them anyway. Crawl back under your rock, you pathetic, evil piece of filth.

Switezianka,
Your replies were perfect. Everything you said was right on. But this guy is not worth answering.
McCoy 27 | 1,268  
26 Aug 2008 /  #13
where can I get original matzah with blood of innocent christian baby in PL? I've already asked in Tesco and Real but they've got only the fake one, unkosher and without blood. Thx in advance
joepilsudski 26 | 1,388  
26 Aug 2008 /  #14
JoeP,
I just came across this thread and it really reveals what you are.
That you can bring up the Beilis case now in 2008 is incredible. Has nothing happened in the past century to change you people? This really shows that no matter what Jews do or don't do, scum like you will hate them anyway. Crawl back under your rock, you pathetic, evil piece of filth.

Dear Praise/Yehudi:

You should read something of the Beilis case...Why are Jews so sensitive when other people accuse them of wrongdoing?...Are they such sinless people?...Every nation sins before God...I mention the Beilis case because it was a famous one, and, from what I have read, it seems that the accusation was true...there was much tampering and money changing hands, and an interesting aspects was the warning given to Russian jurors and witnesses that when Jewish power asserted itself in Russia, those who told the truth as they saw it about the case would be killed...Now, Beilis was tried in what, 1911?...6 or 7 years later, the Jewish Bolsheviks took over in Russia, and preceeded on a spree of mass murder and repression of Russians, Ukranians, and others, but special emphasis was placed on Russian Orthodox Catholics (priests & nuns), intellectuals and peasantry...one stimate of the number of Christian Churches destroyed in Russian under Communist/Bolshevik rule is 40,000 (this is from 1917-1970)...Now, it seems as if the prediction of revenge after the trial was fulfilled, but on a much larger scale...and, as I said, if you study the case, specific witnesses were also executed or 'died suddenly'...Now, you address me as 'you people'...What does that mean?...Have I insulted anyone personally, or made any kind of blanket accusation against any particular ethnic group?...No, I haven't...I merely rsponded to a thread that was posted by someone else...And, I stated that the 'accusation' of ritual murder appeared to be fact in many cases...This is no blanket accusation of Jews...I also stated that there is much evidence of WORLDWIDE ritual and satanic murder and pedophilia, committed by psychos from every existing ethnic group, and by those who worship 'the devil'...If you wish to learn more about this, I can direct you to some sources, and you decide for yourself...Jews have historically accused Christians of 'mass criminal behavior' in historical events like the Inquisition, and the Crusade, and even make statements like the 'holocaust makes the Cross of Christ null and void'...Oh, yes...but, when a lone Internet blogger like myself says that their is evidence for INDIVIDUAL crimes of a heinous sort by Jews, I am called 'a pathetic, evil, piece of filth'...Have I ever attacked you like this?...No...Control your anger, and you might learn something.

Switezianka - | 463  
27 Aug 2008 /  #15
where can I get original matzah with blood of innocent christian baby in PL? I've already asked in Tesco and Real but they've got only the fake one, unkosher and without blood. Thx in advance

You can't buy it. You must get some floor and water, and cut some Christian baby's throat and make it yourself. But don't worry, you've still got a lot of time to learn to do it properly before the Passover.

But this guy is not worth answering.

I was answering mainly for the sake of other people who may read this thread. Reasonable people know that blood libel is a load of sh*t, but not everyone knows why it is so absurd.

I'm generally very anti-religious but I really get p*ssed off when someone talks such crap. If someone wants to criticize reasonably something Jewish, they get at Israeli politics, gender inequality in Orthodox communities, some nationalistic attitudes etc. But to talk such crap one must be an idiot.

Anyway, thanks to JoeP now I know why this matzah I got from Jews tasted much better than the one from the shop :P. I just thought it was because it was home made.
yehudi 1 | 433  
28 Aug 2008 /  #16
but not everyone knows why it is so absurd.

You'd think that after hundreds of years explaining why it can't be true, people would get it. But some people, as you see here, don't want to get it.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,146  
28 Aug 2008 /  #17
A fresco showing Jews draining the blood of a Christian baby for use in making matza

And what's the problem... ?
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
28 Aug 2008 /  #18
Carefully read all the thread I didn't understand why Joe was piece of something. I've read about cases of Christian blood withdrawal and didn't happen to see here any contrarguments.
yehudi 1 | 433  
28 Aug 2008 /  #19
And what's the problem... ?

Not a problem for me. If your religion wants to "glorify" its churches by depicting horror stories spread by idiots, that's not my problem, it's yours.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,883  
28 Aug 2008 /  #20
But some people, as you see here, don't want to get it.

Because some people are so full of hatred towards Jewish people they will believe anything...Usually these people chose to live in the past citing incidents that happened over 100 years ago...Joe just loves to hates Jews, maybe someone should remind him Jesus was one ;-)
Piorun - | 655  
28 Aug 2008 /  #21
This is a legitimate subject and in my opinion worthy of discussion. Stereotypes are very real in our society and we are all guilty. So many times on this very forum we hear from our Jewish friends about Kielce pogrom and Polish anti-semitism. Reading the accounts of that tragic event brings us back to the subject at hand. Kielce Pogrom was sparked by allegations of blood libel, a rumor that a Christian boy was abducted by the Jewish community.

I just don't get it. When there are accusations towards others by Jews it is said; yes there are some idiots that would do such a terrible deed but when the Jews are accused of something, it's absurd, its ridicules, it's a lie and so on. There are Idiots in every nationality and religion including Judaism and some Jews are idiots themselves, simply denying it will not make it go away or make it a lie.

Just go to any bookstores on-line and type in Jewish mysticism, you will see how many books have been written on the subject. Since there are so many books out there on the market dealing with this particular subject, It stands to reason that there is a great interest on the subject, and the idea of practitioners is not farfetched now is it?

You'd think that after hundreds of years explaining why it can't be true, people would get it.

We all have civil laws that prohibit us from doing certain acts. Religion or the community itself dictates how we should behave and what our morals should be like. Although it works for most of the people a small portion of the population will break those rules hence we have crime. So you simply telling me that it can't be because of X is not good enough unless you call yourself perfect in every aspect and without any human weakness like greed, envy, sexual desire that drives some amongst us to commit unspeakable acts.

Throughout human history every imaginable and unspeakable crime known to us have been committed. Just because it is so horrible, so cruel or on such a large scale that it seems like a work of fiction doesn't mean it has not happened. Looking back at the last century what do we see Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot just to name a few. Some people still deny some of the events that happened during WWII, denying it on the basis of sheer scale, technology, resources and man power needed.

Every religion and community out there has some sort of devil worshiping cult or just a cult and Judaism is no different in that aspect to any other group of people out there. Just like any other society, a very small percentage but they do exist. I'm not saying it is true, because I have never seen it myself or know anyone that did; on the other hand, I do not dismiss it as easily as others do, because as human beings we are capable of unspeakable crimes, as to the motivation to commit such a crime I think history has shown us that it won't take much to justify almost anything we as humans do.

Here is a film depicting a Jewish girl speaking on the very same subject in present day US. Not the greatest of sources but there it is. It goes to show that it's not just in the past but in modern times as well that we do deal with this subject.
Switezianka - | 463  
29 Aug 2008 /  #22
The problem with blood libel is not that Jews are accused of killing someone. Jews have murdered a lot of people, and there are some psychopaths among Jews like among any other nationality.

What is crap about it is that the blood libel connects the crimes with Judaism and states that this is a ritual and that the blood is needed for matzah. And since the Torah is the basis of all the branches of Judaism, and it clearly says: 'You can't eat blood', the blood libel is just bulls.hit.

Jews have lived in isolated communities, so all the evil that any Jew committed was not ascribed to an individual but to Judaism. Nobody says that raping and killing a woman is a Christian ritual just because there are some people in Christian communities who have committed that. That would be absurd, because Christianity forbids to kill and rape. And so is the blood libel absurd, because Judaism forbids to kill innocent people and to consume blood.

Every religion and community out there has some sort of devil worshiping cult or just a cult and Judaism is no different in that aspect to any other group of people out there.

You cannot equate community to religion!!!
Neither Christianity, Judaism, Islam or Buddhism has a devil-worshipping cult. If you worship devil, than you aren't a Christian, follower of Judaism, Muslim or Buddhist. You're a devil worshipper.

So, let's suppose that there is a Jewish community and within this community some Jews have decided to worship devil. For the sake of the devil they want to transgress Halacha, blaspheme a bit, so they decide to kill someone and add the non-kosher blood to the ritual Pesach matzah. That's probable. But in this case, they do not longer observe Judaism, so their crime cannot be associated with it.

It's like saying that drawing a pentacle with a goat's blood on the floor is a Christian ritual because some kids within some Christian community decided to worship Satan and did it.
Harry  
2 Sep 2008 /  #24
Kielce Pogrom was sparked by allegations of blood libel, a rumor that a Christian boy was abducted by the Jewish community.

A Christian boy who was held by Jews in the basement of a house which didn't have a basement.

Which just goes to show how some Poles need no truth at all in their blood libel in order to excuse the killing of Jews.

Here is a film depicting a Jewish girl speaking on the very same subject in present day US. Not the greatest of sources but there it is. It goes to show that it’s not just in the past but in modern times as well that we do deal with this subject.

That film features Vicki Polin, who was quite clearly insane at the time the show was recorded. Interestingly she will no longer make any comment at all on her appearance on Oprah.
Gary Busey - | 51  
2 Sep 2008 /  #25
According to the Israeli-Jewish professor, Dr. Ariel Toaff, such sacrifices may have occurred (rarely) among estranged Jewish sects and Kabbalistic cults. The English translation of his book, "Blood Passover," can be downloaded in pdf-form at the following links:

bloodpassover.com
cwporter.com/letter35.htm
israelshamir.net/BLOODPASSOVER.pdf

After numerous death-threats, legal and political attacks, and under the duress of the ADL (Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith) and Israeli government, Dr. Toaff disavowed the book and submitted to having all copies destroyed, but not before digitizing it and making it available for free online. Read it, and decide for yourself.
Harry  
2 Sep 2008 /  #26
Read more about Vicki here: lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/vicki_polin.htm

According to the Israeli-Jewish professor, Dr. Ariel Toaff, such sacrifices may have occurred (rarely) among estranged Jewish sects and Kabbalistic cults.

Really?

Speaking to the Post, Toaff replies with a defiant "No" to the question of whether he believes Jewish communities could have committed ritual murder.

His previous statement had been an ironic academic provocation, he said - a premise for breaking the taboo of academic research into the anti-Christian atmosphere in Ashkenazi European Jewish communities of the Middle Ages.

According to Toaff, this atmosphere was an understandable aftermath of the Crusades, the massacres of Jews and the mass suicides of Jewish families who preferred death to conversions forced on them by fanatic Christians. However, he feels it played a role in the recurrent traumatic events which saw Jews as victims.

Gary Busey - | 51  
2 Sep 2008 /  #27
On his first day in Rome, Prof. Toaff was quoted as saying that some ritual murders "might have taken place."

Re-read your quoted material.

Toaff "recanted" in the face of death-threats, political and legal attacks, and pressure from the Knesset and ADL. Whether or not Dr. Toaff's "recantation" was genuine, I will leave to the reader of his magnum opus to decide:

bloodpassover.com

I make no claims as to the validity of Dr. Toaff's work. I simply include it here for any interested parties as a matter of historical and religious curiosity.
Harry  
2 Sep 2008 /  #28
Re-read your quoted material. I suggest more research...

Re-read your comment. You said that "According to the Israeli-Jewish professor, Dr. Ariel Toaff, such sacrifices may have occurred". The quote supposedly by him was that some ritual murders "might have taken place." You say "sacrifices", the supposed quote is "ritual murders"; you say "may", the supposed quote is "might".

And the on-the-record quote is "Toaff replies with a defiant "No" to the question of whether he believes Jewish communities could have committed ritual murder."

BTW, you said that "After numerous death-threats, legal and political attacks, and under the duress of the ADL (Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith) and Israeli government, Dr. Toaff disavowed the book and submitted to having all copies destroyed" In reality the distribution was stopped after seven days (lots of time for the numerous death threats) and an edited version (i.e. one with a new introduction) was released.

For more info: haaretz.com/hasen/spages/957357.html

A Jewish historian over the weekend published an edited version of his book on the killing of a Christian child in the Italian city of Trento in 1475, denying that the Jews implicated in the murder were in any way involved.

In the new edition, Bar-Ilan University Professor Ariel Toaff writes: "Jews were not involved in ritual murder, which was an entirely Christian stereotype."

z_darius 14 | 3,960  
2 Sep 2008 /  #29
Funny, but the main symbol of christianity is a Jewish fella killed by other Jewish fellas. Could it lead to Jewish pressures to change the symbol into, let's say an innocent lamb?

Oh wait! They killed lambs too!
ShelleyS 14 | 2,883  
2 Sep 2008 /  #30
Jewish fella killed by other Jewish fellas

Technically it was the Romans that did the deed ;-)

They killed lambs too!

And roasted them by all accounts, Shock, Horror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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