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Polish Residency - Zameldowanie to be abolished?


james_warszawa 5 | 9  
10 Feb 2009 /  #1
Hello all.

I recently moved to Poland and I am wishing to apply for Polish residency. I have been told of all the details I must supply, but the one that eludes me is the Zamildowanie. I have been told that I MUST have this.

I have recently rented a flat and must produce a Zamildowanie signed by my landlady. The catch is, is that it is very common that land lords/ladies are reluctant to sign such a document because of one of the two following cases:

a) Once signed, land lords/ladies find it really difficult (legally) to remove a tenant from a rented flat.

b) Most land lords/ladies are renting flats on the sly, therefore not paying taxes for these flats. This means they don't want to give the game away by signing such a document.

So this creates a Catch 22 situation. I want to live in Poland for longer than 3 months, but I can't because I can't get Residenct, because no-one will give me a Zamildowanie.

Recently, I heard from Polish friends, that on the news, they heard that the Zamildowanie is to be abolished and a law has been passed that one does not need this document to apply for residnency. However, I do not know how long this takes to filter through the legal and administrative system.

The trail has gone cold over the past few weeks in regards to this document being abolished. Has anyone else heard of any news about this? Is it true?
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098  
10 Feb 2009 /  #2
Has anyone else heard of any news about this? Is it true?

zameldowanie or meldunek

They promised abolition from 01.01.2009r but still in Sejm.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
10 Feb 2009 /  #3
Okay, the first question of all - are you an EU citizen? If so, there's not much to worry about. There's no systematic register kept of entries/exit from Schengen - so EU citizens can effectively dodge the Zameldowanie requirement without effort. If you are asked by anyone (like the police), you just tell them that you're a tourist and there's no problem.

There's some great advice either on here or on eslcafe regarding how to strong arm your landlord/lady into registering you - but I cannot for the life of me remeber how. Something to do with the flat being rented for business purposes, I seem to recall - but I may be wrong.

You are correct about the Zameldowanie being abolished. It was supposed to happen on the 1st of January and be replaced with a 'registracja' (spelling?...) - the idea being that you simply had to register an address with the State and there was nothing special attached to this. But the trail has indeed gone cold - I can only assume that they're experiencing some opposition to this, particularly as it'll mean an end to the multitude of people employed to deal with non-Polish EU citizens.

But you don't need Polish residency in order to live here IF you are EU. It's reliably documented online that you can do lots of things in Poland without it.

I actually had a problem with getting registered in the first place. I asked what the punishment was for not registering (the law requires all the owners of the flat to be present, or to pay a ridiculous amount for a notary!) - and was told bluntly that as I was EU, they didn't care less.
OP james_warszawa 5 | 9  
10 Feb 2009 /  #4
Hi all.

I moved to Poland in October, and would like to stay and work here for some time. I am still a University student in the UK, on a long-term break.

I know that to be here for longer than 3 months, which, I already have (am I in trouble here?), even though I am also from the EU, I need an EU short-term Polish residency. I visited the place where this is supplied, and I was told what I need to produce, which is:

- Correctly filled application form (4 copies)
- Photocopy of Passport (4 copies)
- 2 x Passport sized photos
- Proof of medical cover insurance
- Photocopy of European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) (4 copies)
- Proof of income (POLISH BANK ACCOUNT only! - not English bank account) bank statement
- Zamildowanie

Is there anything missing, that I should be including?

I have also been told, that instead of supplying a bank statement as proof of income (because I don't yet have a Polish bank account), I can instead supply, a formal letter of employment to them, from a company I work for in Poland.

I started working as a native English speaker in November, for a school in Warsaw. So they can supply this document of employment.

2nd Problem - Contracts, Taxes & NIP

Now, I have really got myself in a mess here ... please let me explain ...

My school can produce this letter of employment, but they assume that they must also include a copy of my contract of employment with this. This may be true so I am assuming it is.

The problem is, I don't have a NIP no. at the moment, so I am pretty sure I cannot be paying TAX, even though my school are collecting around 18% "TAX" from my wages - how?

So if I am not paying TAX, my school cannot complete my contract details and send it with this letter of employment to the organsation sorting my residency. This is because it looks like (and probably is) I am not paying taxes, and therefore, working illegally.

I don't know how things have got this complex.

I would really appreciate some advice and suggestions on what my next steps are and what information I should be looking into.

Kind regards,
wildrover 98 | 4,451  
10 Feb 2009 /  #5
Blimey...i didn,t have all that stuff , and i managed to register , work here , buy a farm....I think you got somebody there that is still working by the old system....Make friends with a Pole who can speak English , you will find it a whole lot easier....
OP james_warszawa 5 | 9  
11 Feb 2009 /  #6
Thanks for the info, delphiandomine.

It's nice to hear that there is no punishment that the State is willing to chase up on EU members without the residency. As I am indeed an EU citizen (UK to be precise). The honourable fact is, is that at least I am trying to obtain it.

I should look into this alternative method with my landlady, because I think there is no way that she would sign it if left to herself.

I just hope there are other methods to try and get this Zamildowanie, or something else I can do, other than just waiting for the Zamildowanie to die.

The thing is, I have a Polish girlfriend, who is familiar with the system, but at this point, she can't help. It relies on more people and other contributing factors, to be able to be dealt with in one person's hands.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
11 Feb 2009 /  #7
It's nice to hear that there is no punishment that the State is willing to chase up on EU members without the residency. As I am indeed an EU citizen (UK to be precise). The honourable fact is, is that at least I am trying to obtain it.

I find it absolutely ridiculous to be honest - why they didn't scrap the system as a priority after 1990 is entirely beyond me. I don't actually disagree with the concept of registration - it seems quite sensible to have an address where the State can contact you. But the nonsense required to actually obtain it is completely crazy - and completely ignorant of the reality of the situation.

I get the feeling however, that the whole EU registration process was put together rather hastily, hence the linking of the zameldowanie with the residence permit.

I just hope there are other methods to try and get this Zamildowanie, or something else I can do, other than just waiting for the Zamildowanie to die.

One thing that you should be aware of is that they really don't care less where you are registered. If you can find someone willing to register you at their place, then it'll do fine - I know countless people who are actually registered in an entirely different part of the country. But it does have some downsides - they tend to link governmental functions to the registered address, so registering a car for instance has to be done in the place where you're registered.

All in all, it's a complete joke of a system. The fact that it's still held up in the Sejm surely means that it won't be implemented anytime soon - and I wouldn't put it past the dear President to veto it out of spite.

Unfortunately though, if you can't get someone to register you, then you're stuck. But it doesn't stop you doing whatever you want to do in Poland ;)
plk123 8 | 4,150  
11 Feb 2009 /  #8
there is paperwork that you actually get with meldunek? i thought it was more like a registry then a "stamp". hmm interesting. i think it should be abolished and not replaced with something just as absurd.

Zamildowanie

btw. zam e ldowanie

it seems quite sensible to have an address where the State can contact you.

it is completely UNreasonable unless the state owns you.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
11 Feb 2009 /  #9
This thread should probably be merged with the other one, but here goes...

I know that to be here for longer than 3 months, which, I already have (am I in trouble here?),

Nope. You could be if you willingly told the authorities that you were doing this - but in all honesty, they have no way of checking when you entered/exited the Schengen zone. The exit checks aren't comprehensive enough - so you can tell them any old nonsense and they have no way of checking.

But strictly speaking, yes, you're in trouble. Although I'm sure I read somewhere that British passport holders are given six months free access rather than three for the rest of non-Schengen EU. The golden rule is that if you ever get questioned about it, then simplytell them that you're on holiday.

I need an EU short-term Polish residency.

Unless things have drastically changed, you basically get three months temporary registration. After this, you go back and obtain a five year residence permit. Or you can continue to register for three months at a time - it's entirely your choice. The system is a bit of a mess, because it seems to overlap with the non-EU system - but basically, you get automatically granted a permit to stay.

Is there anything missing, that I should be including?

This doesn't sound right at all. I don't have the form to hand from Poznań - but I simply had to fill out a small form and bring the owners of the flat along, plus providing photocopies of my passport. There was certainly no proof of income required, nor health insurance. And the Polish bank account part sounds like nonsense to me too - they certainly didn't ask me for any.

I suspect that you might have been confused for a non-EU citizen, actually.

As for the Zameldowanie - the temporary three months registration is your zameldowanie. This makes me think that you might've went to the wrong place and were trying to apply for a non-EU Karta Pobytu - which would explain all the forms needed.

I have also been told, that instead of supplying a bank statement as proof of income (because I don't yet have a Polish bank account), I can instead supply, a formal letter of employment to them, from a company I work for in Poland.

This is what convinces me that you've been trying to apply for the wrong thing. There's absolutely no need to prove anything work-wise when registering as an EU citizen - because of the EU freedom of movement, you can move to Poland for whatever reason you like. You certainly don't have to be employed to live here if you're EU.

My school can produce this letter of employment, but they assume that they must also include a copy of my contract of employment with this. This may be true so I am assuming it is.

Usually, a contract is required for non-EU in order to gain a work permit/residency. But again, it isn't required for EU.

The problem is, I don't have a NIP no. at the moment, so I am pretty sure I cannot be paying TAX, even though my school are collecting around 18% "TAX" from my wages - how?

Very common scam, it seems. The best bet is to get yourself down to the tax office sharpish and get a NIP - you don't have to be registered in order to get one, as you can be carrying out business affairs in Poland and wish to declare it without actually living here.

Once you get the NIP, ask the school to provide you with evidence that the taxes have been paid. You'll probably find that they've been creaming the 18% into their own pockets - though the usual trick in this respect is to tell them that you're taking your contract to the tax office because they want to see it. If they **** themselves and tell you not to do it, then you know they're upto no good.

When I arrived in Poland during my first few days, I was told that in order to apply for a tourist VISA for Russia, I needed to be a Polish resident, which means I had to obtain Polish Residency and live in the country for at least 90 days.

I wouldn't put it past the Russians to have such a ridiculous requirement.

Basically, I can see that you're in need of some advice here.

First step, go to the Urzad Miasta (or whatever the correct spelling is!) for your city (Warsaw, presumably!). This'll be the place where you go to register your address - and if Warsaw is similar to Poznan, then there'll be a dedicated office there for the registration of EU nationals. I'm not sure what the Polish name is, sorry - but someone will surely tell you this.

Once you've got this form, and it should be a very simple form, then you have to get your landlady to agree to register you. This is the difficult part - but I'm sure someone can advise on the best way to convince her into doing so.

Make sure that you get given a PESEL number when you register - it's not required, but makes life much easier for you.

During all this nonsense, you want to obtain a NIP number. They probably won't care less about proof of employment/etc because of you being EU - they didn't in my case, anyway. But the number should come through after a couple of weeks, which will allow your school to start taxing you correctly.

But - and this is the important question. Do you know what type of contract you have? There are others on here who can advise as to the different types of contracts - but from the sounds of things, your school is effectively pretending to tax you 18% while creaming it off for themselves. It's a common scam, unfortunately.
sobieski 107 | 2,128  
11 Feb 2009 /  #10
The foreigner's office here in Warsaw at ul. Długa 5, Nowe Miasto.
Mazowiecki Urząd Wojewódski - Wydział Spraw Cudzoziemców

mazowieckie.pl/wsc

There is a separate section for EU citizens, ask the guy sitting downstairs (who issues your entrance number) for the UE section.

PESEL - as somebody else here already wrote, you get this from your local Gmina when you register yourself, but often you have to ask for it. They do not always give it automatically.

I think every Gmina has its own tax office (Urząd Skarbowy) where you get your NIP.
Harry  
11 Feb 2009 /  #11
I know that to be here for longer than 3 months, which, I already have (am I in trouble here?), even though I am also from the EU, I need an EU short-term Polish residency. I visited the place where this is supplied, and I was told what I need to produce, which is:

- Correctly filled application form (4 copies)
- Photocopy of Passport (4 copies)
- 2 x Passport sized photos
- Proof of medical cover insurance
- Photocopy of European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) (4 copies)
- Proof of income (POLISH BANK ACCOUNT only! - not English bank account) bank statement
- Zamildowanie

Is there anything missing, that I should be including?

Nope. That is everything. And yes that is the correct and entirely up-to-date list for an EU citizen (although I believe it is either proof of medical cover insurance

or photocopy of European Health Insurance Card).

Of course you don't actually need any of it because you don't actually need to bother getting registered. You can't be deported for not being registered and it is impossible for the authorities to prove how long you have been in the country. With that said, if you go back to England twice a year, you won't even be breaking the regulations anyway!

I have also been told, that instead of supplying a bank statement as proof of income (because I don't yet have a Polish bank account), I can instead supply, a formal letter of employment to them, from a company I work for in Poland.

I started working as a native English speaker in November, for a school in Warsaw. So they can supply this document of employment.

Get it from them even though you don't need it. It might come in helpful when dealing with tax issues if they haven't been paying taxes.

Out of interest, which school are you working for? I know a fair few of the ones in Warsaw and might be able to tell you whether you need to worry about the particular school you work for.

My school can produce this letter of employment, but they assume that they must also include a copy of my contract of employment with this. This may be true so I am assuming it is.

The problem is, I don't have a NIP no. at the moment, so I am pretty sure I cannot be paying TAX, even though my school are collecting around 18% "TAX" from my wages - how?
So if I am not paying TAX, my school cannot complete my contract details and send it with this letter of employment to the organsation sorting my residency. This is because it looks like (and probably is) I am not paying taxes, and therefore, working illegally.

You can most certainly pay tax without a NIP number I did it myself without any problem for more than ten years. And in those ten years I had to get four certificates from tax offices that all my taxes were paid (those used to be required to renew residency permits), so I know that all my tax was certainly correctly paid.

As for the maldunek, don't bother. When I went to try and get one to replace the one which I lost, the lady at the gmina office couldn't give it to me because I didn't have the notarial deed proving that I own my apartment (although I did have a bill with my name on it from the gmina for local property tax). She told me that I can not go to prison and will not have to pay any fine for not having a maldunek. She wouldn't confirm that she actually lives at the address where her last maldunek was issued for.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
13 Feb 2009 /  #12
Just an update.

I went past the registration office in Poznań and asked what the current requirement was for the inital temporary registration. All they want is a form, a passport, and at least one of the owners (the other owners can write a letter declaring that they give permission for one owner to give permission, if that makes sense) to turn up in person with the original deed proving ownership to the property.

But make sure that you do go to the EU window. In Poznań, there's nothing clearly indicating this - so you have to make sure to tell the guy that gives you the ticket that you want the desk for EU registration and not anything else.
Wroclaw Boy  
13 Feb 2009 /  #13
a) Once signed, land lords/ladies find it really difficult (legally) to remove a tenant from a rented flat.

Thats an easy solve, your landlord can base you temprorarily, which means it expires after a year or whatever.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #14
Exactly right, WB. This is regulated between the parties. Also, if the registration process isn't abolished, it'd be wise to state a date. The first time I did it, it was decided for me. The second time, I decided that 2012 was to be the expiry period.

Look into the umowa o najmu lokalu. I didn't have this document for so long but it is needed to apply. My landlord and I drew one up. Other documents from your landlord are also needed as evidence.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
13 Feb 2009 /  #15
Exactly right, WB. This is regulated between the parties. Also, if the registration process isn't abolished, it'd be wise to state a date. The first time I did it, it was decided for me. The second time, I decided that 2012 was to be the expiry period

Isn't it 3 months, then the automatic 5 years?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #16
Maybe that's what the rule book states but I neglected the first 3 years, LOL. I wasn't told to get it so I didn't. They don't enforce it unless you want to have your own registered business here as I do, and WB likely does too.

It's not as strict as Japan where you need to get your gaikokujin torukusho (ID card) within 90 days of arriving in the country. If you fail to do this, you can and likely will be deported. In the interim, you have to carry your passport around as ID, something anathema to us.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
13 Feb 2009 /  #17
Actually, this brings up a point.

The law in Poland is to carry your ID, right? So...for us that don't have ID cards, what's acceptable? I have no desire to carry around my passport...
dtaylor 9 | 823  
13 Feb 2009 /  #18
Only Passport im afraid, its stupid i think.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #19
What's acceptable is ducking the issue by speaking English and pointing to your watch when the police approach you ;)
dtaylor 9 | 823  
13 Feb 2009 /  #20
Or ticket inspectors on the bus hehe ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #21
Yeah, carrying a ticket is insurance only. It's usually good for 10 trips before an inspector comes along.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
13 Feb 2009 /  #22
Only Passport im afraid, its stupid i think.

Pah, I'll stick with my driving licence and a photocopy of my passport then.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #23
That should do the trick. They don't really check to be honest.
sobieski 107 | 2,128  
13 Feb 2009 /  #24
you have to carry your passport around as ID, something anathema to us.

I do not really see the problem here. We Belgians always(well actually since WW I when the Germans "introduced" them) had ID cards and I do not really see the problem here...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #25
Yes but ID cards aren't passports, now are they? I wouldn't object to carrying an ID card either, in fact I did so for almost 2 years.

They are more convenient than carting a passport around.
dtaylor 9 | 823  
13 Feb 2009 /  #26
Passports can be stolen and reproduced.

Its a little harder with ID cards. And really i dont know if i want my details spread about in government offices for twits to "lose" them on a CD.

Though i'd agree if you done nothing wrong, why argue against ID cards.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #27
ID cards are the way forward. Read up on RFiD chips in America. That takes the process more than one step further. The procedure involves a surgical implant so that they can constantly monitor your whereabouts. You can also make numerous payments with it. Read up on Gemalto.
dtaylor 9 | 823  
13 Feb 2009 /  #28
I agree with having a card that does everything, but Seanus, on your theory with 9/11....who do you think needs this info?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Feb 2009 /  #29
Who? Hmm....hard to say. I think it's just a greater form of control over the people. Like a constant big brother.

Still, I'm not really that cynical on this matter. The Youtube accounts blow the matter out of proportion. Proponents of a one world government believe it is a step in the right direction.
delphiandomine 86 | 18,273  
14 Feb 2009 /  #30
Though i'd agree if you done nothing wrong, why argue against ID cards.

I argue against the UK's plans to keep a ridiculous amount of data in one (well, three) places about people. ID cards to prove identity are fine - I have absolutely no issue with them. But there is absolutely no need to hold the masses of data that the UK intends to hold on people - and anyway, with the Labour government's record of failures in IT projects, does anyone think the data will be secure?

It creates a single point of failure, and this is never good.

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