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Controversy about funshops with recreational drugs in Poland


pawian 179 | 16,124  
22 Mar 2009 /  #1
About 6 months ago first funshops with recreational drugs started appearing in Poland. Krakow headed the list.

A shop with legal drugs has opened in Krakow selling various over-the-counter alleged alternatives to illicit dope. The little store - labeled as a 'funshop' by its owners, a UK-based World Wide Supplements Importer - is hidden in the courtyard of a nondescript tenement house at Starowislna streets. It sells both chemicals and herbal concoctions and its customer base consist mostly of the young patrons of Krakow's numerous night clubs. Legal as it may be, the merchandise can prove both highly addictive and hazardous to health, drug experts warn.

After weeks of public debate, and local councils` energetic interest into funshops (inspections of premises and certificates, checking the stock for poisons and hard drugs, etc etc) the Polish parliament seem to be designing some kind of law.

The Polish senate today continues discussion on amendments to the law on drugs and illegal substances, which is to ban the sale of so-called recreational drugs.

The amendment would outlaw the substance benzylpiperazine, which produces effects similar to amphetamine, as well as 17 other compounds, derived from plants native to South and Central America and Asia.

Over the past six months some sixty shops selling recreational drugs have opened in Poland.

The amendment has been supported by the Senate health care commission, however producers say it will not cause a major obstacle to the distribution here of "energy pills" or "party pills" and the like.


What is the legal situation with funshops in other countries of EU?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
22 Mar 2009 /  #2
What is the legal situation with funshops in other countries of EU?

If it isn't illegal you can sell it.

Different countries have different regulations.

Although some of these drugs are a little strong, I would just like to point out that caffeine nicotine and alcohol are also widely exceptable drugs, there are many drugs we use on a day to day basis.

These shops are not selling class "A", "B" or "C" harmful and addictive drugs acording to the law.
dcchris 8 | 432  
22 Mar 2009 /  #3
These shops are probably much less harmful than 24 hour alcohol shops
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595  
22 Mar 2009 /  #4
For example benzylpiperazine is illegal in United States, Australia, New Zealand and in parts of Europe.

Many of these compound can have a wide spectra of toxic effects, e.g. causing seizures, renal failure etc. Acute psychosis has been reported for many of them.
VaFunkoolo 6 | 654  
22 Mar 2009 /  #5
It was research into this that was one of the reasons I first came to the forum. I sold these recreational drugs at the Open'er festival a number of years ago but the law was in the process of being reviewed at this time and I decided it was not something worth continuing with.

There are plenty of these drugs on the market but the active ingredients that tend to distinguish the good from the bad are the ingredients being outlawed. Which is a pity as the illegal alternatives to these party pills are significantly more harmful and widely available in Polish cities
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595  
22 Mar 2009 /  #6
You don't know exactly what's in these pills and extracts. Many of them are produced under poor conditions, and may contain contaminants. And even if you would know exactly what it contains, little is known about what many of these substances do to your body.

For example benzylpiperazine can cause side effects including dilated pupils, blurred vision, dryness of the mouth, extreme alertness, pruritus, confusion, agitation, tremor, extrapyramidal symptoms (dystonia, akathisia), headache, dizziness, anxiety, insomnia, vomiting, chest pain, hallucinations, paresthesia, tachycardia, hypertension, palpitations, collapse, hyperventilation, sweating, hyperthermia, and problems with urine retention.[21][23][24][25] The more severe toxic effects include psychosis or adverse psychiatric events,[26][27] renal toxicity,[13] respiratory failure,[23] and seizure.[21][24]

Nicholson T (2006). "Prevalence of use, epidemiology and toxicity of 'herbal party pills' among those presenting to the emergency department". Emergency medicine Australasia : EMA 18 (2): 180–4. doi:10.1111/j.1742-6723.2006.00826.x. PMID 16669944.
OP pawian 179 | 16,124  
22 Mar 2009 /  #7
PS. These drugs are called boosters in Poland - dopalacze.

These shops are probably much less harmful than 24 hour alcohol shops

Prof. Vetulani from the Polish Pharmacology Institute, quite a known guy, thinks they should remain legal. Many substances are addictive but are legal, e.g., alcohol and nicotine.

He thinks that making them illegal won`t remove them from the market but will cause the deterioration of their quality, e.g., sellers will add harmful substances to drugs to increase sales. Legal shops sell tested, good quality stuff.

The professor suggests leaving such drugs as marijuana and boosters on the market, and only run educational programs for people.

For example benzylpiperazine is illegal in United States, Australia, New Zealand and in parts of Europe.
Many of these compound can have a wide spectra of toxic effects, e.g. causing seizures, renal failure etc. Acute psychosis has been reported for many of them.

Two known TV journalists tested the drug Diablo on themselves, the strongest available. They complained about various nasty physiological disorders, especially on the day after. They vowed never to take them again.
plk123 8 | 4,149  
22 Mar 2009 /  #8
SzwedwPolsce

how about all the side effects of all the "safe" drugs? give me a break. smoke 'em if you got 'em, i say. the gov should only worry about this if they are actually harmful to people. they need to stay out of recreation.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
22 Mar 2009 /  #9
Great post.
there are other more pressing matters.
Sure enough, research needs to be done in to the effects, (Cheech and Chong sytle :)
But the word "Drugs" has gotten a bad wrap,

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drug

I mean that is everything from bad neurological and physically addictive to to substances that could save your life and everything in between.

One very curious thing about drugs is that you produce ALL of these drugs naturally, that is why they have an effect.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595  
23 Mar 2009 /  #10
the gov should only worry about this if they are actually harmful to people.

Some psychoactive drugs are considered to be pretty harmless. For example smoking weed is not very harmful from a medical point of view. Except for increased risk of lung cancer if smoked for a long time. Some acute psychoses have also been reported.

But in the toxicology and emergency medicine journals there are many cases described where legal recreational drugs caused life-threatening kidney failure, CNS-depression, respiratory failure etc. Several deaths have also occurred. Another problem is that they sometimes contain contaminants, due to poor conditions when produced.

Of course traditional drugs used in the health care can cause side effects. But these substances are tested much more. And the doctor considers pros and cons before prescribing them to you.
Randal 1 | 577  
23 Mar 2009 /  #11
They're starting to crack down on such things here too. It’s not really about the substances; they’re trying to curb the recreational drug culture with legislation.

It would seem we are to the point that if someone decides they don’t want others doing something –something that is legal and in some cases even been around a long time- that they just outlaw it now. Welcome to the nanny state.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #12
They just have to be sure about individual drugs and how they can impact upon a wide range of potential users. There is almost almost a reasonable demand for such drugs.
ragtime27 1 | 146  
23 Mar 2009 /  #13
They try to sell anything they can get away with it without breaking the law,basically looking for loopholes until they're closed.

it takes a long time to verify every substance,so it's very lengthy process.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #14
True, it's purely ruthless exploitation. Then again, teams from around the world can research them. It'd be a worthy investment. Some of the nonsense jobs that people do nowadays are incredible.

This crucial research work at least has the potential to save lives and put the position on a more secure footing.
ragtime27 1 | 146  
23 Mar 2009 /  #15
the problem who's going to pay or sponsor the research.
you may be surprised some politicians are happy with the situation.
there's no public outcry for the issue,until a dozen of teenager dies then it became one.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #16
Oh, for sure. A really valid point. Look at the CIA in America. They actually have money laundering accounts as outlined in Mike Ruppert's presentation (ex-CIA of 25 years standing). They bully Colombia and profit from the drugs trade.

It's a 15-part presentation, well worth seeking out. Type Mike Ruppert into Youtube and you'll find it.
Randal 1 | 577  
23 Mar 2009 /  #17
the CIA in America. ... They bully Colombia and profit from the drugs trade.

Oh, don't start that!
ragtime27 1 | 146  
23 Mar 2009 /  #18
very interesting

governments used drugs to undermine entire nations as a warfare.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #19
youtube.com/watch?v=z2Bd6lmpIFI, Mike Ruppert

youtube.com/watch?v=zQt4PXeuc64, here again.

There are SOOOO many other threads. He talks about it in other parts.

Yes, Randal, he is an American and also of 25 years standing within the CIA.
ragtime27 1 | 146  
23 Mar 2009 /  #20
another reason why the politicians don't want to go that route is how on earth you going to sell it the police force,they will start arresting everyone with a pain relief.

In UK they tried to downgrade cannabis purely to concentrate on A class drugs,believe me i've seen what cannabis can do.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #21
Cannabis can make people paranoid and delusional. There's enough of that around without drugs.

Downgrading was not the answer. The old argument is trotted out again and again, that it is beneficial for medicinal purposes. Well, yes, but keep it that way. No need for abuse of privelege.
ragtime27 1 | 146  
23 Mar 2009 /  #22
you're right, patients with MS seems to do them great.

paranoid,the most important sterile :-)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #23
There are different methods of stress relief, just look at different Asian cultures. Many use cannabis for sheer hedonism in the West. You know, I'm a bit divided on that. We are born to experience so it's useful to experiment. Having said that, many fail to see the harmful effects it can have.

Personally, I'd like other forms of stress relief to be tried out. Anything which releases trapped energy and stimulates endorphins and some adrenaline.
ragtime27 1 | 146  
23 Mar 2009 /  #24
well... we have sex,physical sports,yoga,green tea as a relaxing methods.

to be honest i don't believe in experiencing everything in life(never tried drugs).

where do you stand on Animal testing?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #25
I was just gonna make the point that we shouldn't be blinkered by our own preferences though, ragtime. Just because I believe we were born to experience in a wide form, doesn't mean that everyone else does or should. The same with your point, cannabis is used by people and they become mellow rather than aggressive as alcohol often causes.

Animal testing? I'm against it generally as I believe that just because animals react one way to a treatment, it doesn't mean that humans will. Also, if drug pushers wanna profit from their activities, they should be the guinea pigs. Risk is a part of business after all.
Randal 1 | 577  
23 Mar 2009 /  #26
Cannabis can make people paranoid and delusional. There's enough of that around without drugs.

It makes the lazy lazier too. We already have plenty of that around.

Also, if drug pushers wanna profit from their activities, they should be the guinea pigs. Risk is a part of business after all.

This is just silly.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
23 Mar 2009 /  #27
just because animals react one way to a treatment, it doesn't mean that humans will.

They tested penicillin on rats rather than guinea pigs. Had they used guinea pigs, we would never have had penicillin. It can kill guinea pigs and probably hamsters as well.

Lots of things are dangerous, some are stupid and dangerous, not even all of these should have laws against them. I've never seen a travel agent being indicted for pushing skiing holidays.
plk123 8 | 4,149  
23 Mar 2009 /  #28
But in the toxicology and emergency medicine journals there are many cases described where legal recreational drugs caused life-threatening kidney failure, CNS-depression, respiratory failure etc. Several deaths have also occurred. Another problem is that they sometimes contain contaminants, due to poor conditions when produced.

ah very good. but really what drugs would do that in recreational capacity (quantity)? the second part i can see making that adverse effect though. if drugs are legalized they seem to be clean and crime is pretty much eliminated that is associated with drug trade.

They're starting to crack down on such things here too. It’s not really about the substances; they’re trying to curb the recreational drug culture with legislation.
It would seem we are to the point that if someone decides they don’t want others doing something –something that is legal and in some cases even been around a long time- that they just outlaw it now. Welcome to the nanny state.

exactly the issue america has been following and it has gotten nowhere really. prohibition just does not work. we're all sinners one way or another.. bad move on poland's part, imho.

Sure enough, research needs to be done in to the effects, (Cheech and Chong sytle :)

They just have to be sure about individual drugs and how they can impact upon a wide range of potential users. There is almost almost a reasonable demand for such drugs.

it takes a long time to verify every substance,so it's very lengthy process.

are you two kidding or something? what recreational drugs have not been studied in pretty in-depth? mj? heroine? coca? acid? ... which ones?? ok, i'll give you x and a few others but some of the others are pretty statistically bad for you anyway.

the problem who's going to pay or sponsor the research.
you may be surprised some politicians are happy with the situation.

it makes financial sense.. before you waste money fighting it to no avail why not figure out a different way.. study, usa's war on drugs, study holland's relaxed attitude on things, and study the in between english way... from what i know, the latter two are better then the first way..

--------------------------

Oh, don't start that!

hey man, it's all game.. it's all part of this issue.

believe me i've seen what cannabis can do

tell me all about it.. i am curious. thanks.

just because animals react one way to a treatment, it doesn't mean that humans will.

but it seems most of the time it is how it is.. how are you going to test this stuff otherwise?

It makes the lazy lazier too. We already have plenty of that around.

so you're gonna make them less lazy? how? that's just as silly as seanus' post.

I've never seen a travel agent being indicted for pushing skiing holidays.

ouch.. but lol too.
Randal 1 | 577  
23 Mar 2009 /  #29
so you're gonna make them less lazy?

No sense in making them more lazy.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Mar 2009 /  #30
Nothing silly about what I wrote. Let people become lazier and accept the consequences. Relative to the salaries some people command, they are lazy.

Sometimes there are other ways of testing out a drug. Also, I wasn't talking about mainstream drugs, plk, more about new drugs coming onto the market of which there are many. They need to be explored by independent sources.

Drugs are fundamentally different from skiing holidays, OsioĊ‚. That was a lame comparison. Drugs have natural chemical and psychological effects, often harmful side effects. Need I remind you of many drugs that weren't thoroughly tested and caused abnormalities on a large scale? Thalidomide ring any bells? I could quote you many more.

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