Pronunciation difference between Ź and Ż / RZ

Gab, if you mean IPA?

Ż is something like in 'u[b]s[/]ually' but a bit harder.

- is a 'z' sound, but it is palatalized; i.e. if you say it, you say it like 'z', but you move the blade of your tounge up so that it is close to your hard palate. Then, it sound much 'softer'.

And here are recordings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BB

HI Switezianka,

I was looking for some pointers for the forum members learning Polish. Polish is my mother tongue. But thanx, anyways.

G.

Just to clarify, are the following associations also true?

ż = rz ?
ź(i) = z(i) ?

and the palatalization that you mentioned works also for the c and s versions? I wonder if I will ever be able to distinguish these sounds. Now I know how the Koreans feel with "l" and "r".

This entire thread reminds us of how 'phonetic' Polish is :) --:)LOL!!!!

Trzy muwisz po polskó?

Boli mi rząb!
etc.....

Well there's IPA, which is international by definition, so it has all symbols necessary for a phonetic transcription of Polish.

I don't know if there are any practice books (similar to How Now Brown Cow for British English), but a good resource based on IPA that I know of is Słownik wymowy polskiej PWN (The dictionary of Polish pronunciation). It has lots of possible variants for most words, and it includes two very useful "From letter to phone" and "From phone to letter" reference tables. There's also a dual lanugage (Polish/English) overview of the trends in Polish pronunciation and of the phonetic transcription of Polish in general.

Unfortunately there haven't been any new editions published for years now - the one I have is from 1977 - but you might try your luck in online second-hand bookshops.

By the way, Marek, there's a marked difference in pronunciation between 'trzy' and 'czy'.

Tak clouddancer, masz rację a orthographia nie jest samo też. Ale wymowa potrawa jest prawie samo, n.p. 'potrzebuję' jak 'poczebuję' itd.

Colloquial phoneme reduction often elides consonant clusters in ordinary speech.

Sure, but you don't want to sound too colloquial. Recognizing and being able to imitate the variants is surely a useful skill, but there's little sense in learning the (substandard, if you're a prescriptivist) pronunciation associated with the uneducated as your main one.

I only hope that others in this forum using it to 'bone up' on their English skills take your advice equally to heart. When in Poland for the first time, I encountered so-called "English-language" students from the local university whose pronunciation was dreadful!! When I corrected them (after they took great liberties to correct my Polish, also unsolicited, by the way LOL) they replied that theirs was the standard way they recall having heard it. Trust me, it sounded more like a cut-rate imitation of President Bush singing country-western than the correct official American broadcaster diction of Walter Cronkite, Charles Collingwood etc. They, however, merrily insisted I was wrong and they were right :)

Now, is that the tail wagging the dog, or what?

I miswrote yesterday. I meant 'potoczna mowa', not 'wymowa potrawna' which of course makes no sense:)

Merged: Really struggling with pronunciation of "rz"

Could somebody please help me out!

I won't tell you what I've been told but I have been told 3 different ways and I'd like to know for certain!

:D

Can u hear me? I'm shouting it out 2 ya as I type ;)

Seriously tho, imagine a Pole saying że (that). I hear it as sth like że shoof (Rzeszów)

it depends where it is in the word...
This site has a few examples
goethe-verlag.com/book2/EN/ENPL/ENPL009.HTM
goethe-verlag.com/book2/EN/ENPL/ENPL015.HTM

rz=sz

malgorzata

malgawSHata :))

Rz doesn't equal sz

Rz is always voiced and can never be devoiced. Sz is voiceless.

Małgawżata if anything

are you sure? it does sometimes i think (i'm not quite sure what devoiced means)
what about words such a pantoflarz /talerz where it's at the end of the word

Look at the consonant before the vowel. Look up final devoicing in English phonetics. This is an exception, it is still voiced but just in a different way.

sometimes it does (i think)
for example zabierz (take), 7th link on this page
goethe-verlag.com/book2/EN/ENPL/ENPL049.HTM

It is final devoicing. Sz is a graphem. It depends what standpoint u approach it from. An appreciation of the difference between morphemes and phonemes is crucial. Graphemes too

For pure sound purposes, yeah, zabierz sounds like sh.

maybe with a tiny bit of ż in it??
another example "i have a plate" / mam talerz
goethe-verlag.com/book2/EN/ENPL/ENPL065.HTM

(near the bottom)

I'd say so, yeah.

I could illustrate ur point with zabierz and zabierzmy. The rz is pronounced slightly differently. It depends on the speed of speech amongst other things.

It also depends on the ear. I had a pron class with a group and they had problems with the English differentiation between D, T and ID. For example, moved (D), checked (T) and consisted (ID). It needs clear diction and enunciation for them to get it.

rz=sh...................for someone who is scottish or non-polish

learning polish or just starting out

I DIDNT MEAN FOR A POLE oops

I'm not sure this is good advice for anyone!

is it true that after 'p' rz is changed to sz. eg przepraszam or przed?

I don't agree, do a test, put it out there. I guarantee u that most non-natives wouldn't say that rz somehow becomes sh.

Sean Connery may be an exception, LOL. For him, sh is used everywhere.

I am talking about colloquial speech, I know that it would not change in grammar

Still, I disagree. Why would a non-native read rz like SH?

"God shave the Queen" :)

Or, 'stop shitting on the sheet, it's wet'

Can I drzoin in the argument?

sorry did not make my self clear...it will always be rz in written form but in speech to my ear there is a bit of a sz sound after p. I have just looked in one of my text book teach yourself polish by nigel gotteri & joanna michalak-gray and they qoute:

rz is pronounced like sz after p.

R u fwom Noo Yawk?