Pronunciation difference between Ź and Ż / RZ

Only if you're Shcottish :)

Yesh, I have u in my shite sh

I think they are being a bit lazy saying this, rz sounds more like sh when at the end of the word.
przykro mi - you can still hear the ż in their
goethe-verlag.com/book2/EN/ENPL/ENPL005.HTM

I thought that rz=ż which is the (usually voiced) equivalent of sz.
It's unvoiced at the end of an utterance or before an unvoiced consonant, also after p-.

Wrong?

sz, does this combination exist in english?
ż is more like pleasure, except when devoiced of course

Of course it doesn't! Half of this thread seems to be about what it sounds like in relation to other Polish sounds. If no-one can agree on that, then how is any of this going to help.

You would be understood perfectly well if any of the consonants that are devoiced in certain places were left voiced.

"rz" can definitely be voiceless, and it is in many everyday words in the Polish language. There is no magic to "rz". It is subject to the same voicing rules as other voice Polish consonants.


No, it's not. It's a digraph i.e. two graphemes which produce one phoneme.


Brilliant! :))

Devoiced isn't the same as voiceless tho. Devoicing can be achieved through various phonological processes whereas some vowels are just voiceless by nature, without any tampering needed.

Sorry, I was lazy and attempted to categorise units according to jargonistic language like morphemes, graphemes and phonemes. I was slack, it is a digraph, 2 graphemes for one phoneme.

My point stands, most native speakers (of English) will read bierz more like beers rather than bee esh.

Yes it is in practical auditory (what you hear) terms.

There is a structural difference between a consonant that's normally unvoiced versus one that's normally voiced but de-voiced in certain circumstances.

Basically rz is pronounced just like ż. They're both pronounced (roughy) like French j or the ss in 'fission'. Sometimes this is written 'zh' in phonetic transcription in English.

The hard thing is that rz and ż have different voicing assimilation rules.

This means that the combination krz will normally be pronounced 'ksh' but the combination kż will normally be pronounced 'gzh'

On the other hand both żk and rzk would be pronounced 'shk'.

Bierz sounds like byesh (rhymes with fresh).

Finally, a long time ago in the past rz and ż were different and rz was like the modern Czech ř (sort of like r and zh pronounced together). Some Polish people still think that rz and ż should be distinguished and might claim that rz still is like ř (though I know of know dialect of modern Polish that does this).

There are subtle differences. Most of the time, rz is ż. Final devoicing changes the picture, e.g bierz.

Take, for example, bierzmowanie, bierzący and bierz. The consonants immediately preceding or following rz have a clear effect. When rz is at the end, it invariably (if not always) changes to sh. Think talerz too.

With the others, where the rz is near the middle, it is pronounced ż.

The issue is not the process but the effect.

"rz" can and does sound as "sz". In official manuals of Polish grammar taught to Poles in primary and secondary schools this was clearly stated. The rule states that the sound "sz" after "p" is spelled "rz" with notable exceptions of "pszenica" and "pszczola". Further to the rule, there is absolutely no difference between the phonemes "sz" and "rz" in this context - both are voiceless.


Nothing can be further from the truth. There is no such thing as voiceless vowels in either Polish or English. In fact, with the exception of whisper and in Quebec French, not a single Indo-European language has voiceless vowels.


I can't argue about the because I haven't met or heard most native speakers (of English). Still, that point is pretty much irrelevant to the learning of Polish, other than a teacher aware of the problem, may point out the pitfalls. Germans for instance are usually on a devoicing spree. They often go as far as calling themselves "chairman" instead of "german". Not sure is this is a language or personality problem though ;)

When u whisper the vowels, they are devoiced. LOL

Voicing is not distinctive for Polish vowels (that means all things being equal they'll be voiced) but unvoiced vowels definitely occur in everyday speech, especially in unstressed syllables surrounded by unvoiced sounds (especially in the s,c, ś, ć and sz, cz groups) or in final position preceded by at least one consonant form the above group or two or more consonants one of which is from the above group.

Good point mafketis, this shows another dimension. There is such a thing as an unvoiced vowel in everyday speech.

It's all about the pairing and place in the word

I was never sure if they are or not. In careful, deliberate speech, it can sound completely voiced, or at least partly voiced. In faster (or careless) speech, it's too fast (or too careless) for me to notice.

Spot on Osioł. It's the same in English. When u start to wur ur slurds (slur ur words), it pales into insignificance.

On a more serious note, the examples I gave highlighted the point, i.e regular past endings with D, T and ID. Moved, boxed, depended being examples.

Yeah, also look at the word can. When u r being emphatic, u will say 'yeah, I cAn' whereas native speakers often say Icun, more like as one word and with a U sound. One is elongated, one is shortened.

No shit. All IE have voice vowels. Every single one of them.



What are you guys smoking tonight?
There is no such thing as unvoiced or voiceless vowels in English or Polish. None, Zero. Simple as that. It's not rocket science but linguistics 101, very very basic.

Repeat after me:

ALL VOWELS IN ENGLISH AND POLISH ARE VOICED


When you whisper all phonemes are devoiced.
When and you sneeze while speaking all sounds are plosives.

and in conclusion???

I should pronounce rz like I should ż???

:>

click on the mp3 links I provided...


if it's at the end of the word more like "sh", eg talerz and some other circumstances...

yes, and using all the same devoicing rules that apply to ż

well put darius...

I tip my hat to you sir. :D


Indeed it was.

Thanks everyone.

:)

rz= z with a dot like in z(with a dot)aba