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Plural nouns in the accusative?


ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
21 Dec 2008 /  #1
Warzywo (vegetable)
warzywa (vegetables)

How do I make the latter word accusative?

Any further examples to really help me understand the method would be of great use.
Polonius3 986 | 12,343  
21 Dec 2008 /  #2
Accusative of both singular and plural -o ending neuter nouns are th same as nominative:
warzywa
warzyw
warzywom
warzywa
warzywami
warzywach
warzywa
OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
23 Dec 2008 /  #3
I can't believe I asked that!
Of course ACCUSATIVE NEUTER/MALE INANIMATE REMAINS NOMINATIVE

Thread attached on merging:
Accusative case

Example
To jest pani Maria. Czy znasz panią Marię

To jest Robert Kowalski (Kowalski is treated as an adjective so is it)
Czy znasz Robertego Kowalskiego ???

Other names:
Agnieszka Nowak.
Jan Nowak.

Agnieszką

What names equal nouns?
Which equal adjectives?
Polonius3 986 | 12,343  
16 Jan 2009 /  #4
Agnieszkę Nowak is accusative
but Jana Nowaka.
-ski ending names are adjectives, so are those ending in -ny (Konieczny, Posłuszny) or just -Y (Gacy) or -i (Malusi)
pomorzanin  
17 Jan 2009 /  #5
Czy znasz Roberta Kowalskiego.

OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
17 Jan 2009 /  #6
So names are treated as nouns
(unless they end in -ski, -ny or ,y)
???????????????????????????????

Agnieszkę Nowak is accusative

Why no change to NOWAK in the female name?
osiol 55 | 3,921  
17 Jan 2009 /  #7
Why no change to NOWAK in the female name?

I didn't ask it because I don't want to look stupid all the time (just most of the time). However, that doesn't mean I think it's a stupid question. At the moment I think it's a very good question. I may be wrong (as I often am).

So names are treated as nouns
(unless they end in -ski, -ny or ,y)

Think of the English surname "Brown". Brown is an adjective, not a noun, unless it is a surname.
mrbubbles 10 | 613  
17 Jan 2009 /  #8
So names are treated as nouns
(unless they end in -ski, -ny or ,y)
???????????????????????????????

You're really overcomplicating things. Kowalski is the genitive form of a noun = (I suppose) 'of Kowal' in this case. similar to Von in German, Van in Dutch or Du in French

Nouns can act as adjectives
OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
18 Jan 2009 /  #9
I just want to know how I should treat names.

I'm learning how to make adjectives/nouns into instrumental, accusative and genitive (from the nominative).
If I knew how to ttreat names I would know how to modify them into the appropriate case. Nothing overly complicated in that?

I know a noun can be an adjective.
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
18 Jan 2009 /  #10
No that sounds great. You go for it.
benszymanski 8 | 465  
18 Jan 2009 /  #11
Kowalski is the genitive form of a noun

No it's not. Kowalkski is an adjective and it's in the nominative form. Genitive would be Kowalskiego.

Why no change to NOWAK in the female name?

Names are quite complicated. According to the book I have in front of me (Kiedyś wrócisz tu... by Universitas press):

Masculine surnames ending in -ski, cki, dzki and female ending in -ska, cka, dzka decline like adjectives.

Masculine surnames ending in consonants (including foreign surnames) such as Nowak are treated as masculine nouns.

Feminine surnames finishing in a consonant or -o (such as Nowak) do not decline.

Both male and female surnames ending in -a decline like female nouns.

Male surnames ending in -o decline like those in -a.

Female surnames ending in -owa or -ova decline like female adjectives. Those in -ówna like female nouns.
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
18 Jan 2009 /  #12
No it's not. Kowalkski is an adjective and it's in the nominative form. Genitive would be Kowalskiego

But I can say 'Wrocławski rynek'? (='The rynek of Wrocław')?
benszymanski 8 | 465  
18 Jan 2009 /  #13
Yes you can say that but they are not using the genitive there. They are just using an adjective - what you have written there is more like "[the] wrocław rynek"
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
18 Jan 2009 /  #14
Hmm So what would 'the rynek of wroclaw be? Rynek Wroclawa?
benszymanski 8 | 465  
18 Jan 2009 /  #15
Yes - that would be the genitive construction
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
18 Jan 2009 /  #16
But isn't your name 'Ben of Szymon', ie Szymon's son, Ben? That would be genitive. You're not the 'Symonic Ben' no?
benszymanski 8 | 465  
19 Jan 2009 /  #17
I don't know whether Szymanski is related to Szymon or not. But that aside you're getting confused because we often use the genitive on the English side when they just use an adjectival construction on the Polish side. That doesn't make the adjective form genitive though.
osiol 55 | 3,921  
19 Jan 2009 /  #18
The genitive, as many things in Polish seem to the English speaker, is more than just a little odd, although after a while, it starts to make sense with its own peculiar Polish logic. If I ever find anything that seems simple and straightforward in Polish, I check, check and triple check to make sure I haven't missed out something.
OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
19 Jan 2009 /  #19
Well then, Bubbles, Ben, Donkey,
Can you post some examples of CASE changing the meaning of a similar group of words?

I notice that many nouns have the same spelling in nominative plural as they do in genitive singular. At the moment I have just started learning genitive so the material I study is simple stuff where adjectives (obviously denoting the genitive case) preceed most nouns.

Am I correct in assuming that nominative plural and genitive singular could be confused in certain sentences???
benszymanski 8 | 465  
19 Jan 2009 /  #20
similar group of words

Sorry not sure I follow exactly what you mean..?

same spelling in nominative plural as they do in genitive singular

Yes you are right - that happens sometimes

could be confused in certain sentences

In general no. Normally it is clear from the context which it is. Either the adjectives give it away as you have already mentioned, or a verb will give it away.
OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
19 Jan 2009 /  #21
ArcticPaul: similar group of words

Sorry not sure I follow exactly what you mean..?

As above with WROCLAW RYNEK

Many of the street names in Krakow were GENITIVE (Nowakego, Kowalskiego....)
What is the relevence of this case for this purpose (naming public streets).

I'm a little unsure of the overall concept of CASES.
benszymanski 8 | 465  
19 Jan 2009 /  #22
Many streets in Poland are named after famous people or events. Therefore you see streets such as "ulica Nowakego", or "aleja 5 listopada" [read piątego]. They are written in the genitive i.e. street of Nowak [or Nowak's street] as opposed to how we might do it in the UK which is to leave it in the nominative - e.g. Nowak St.

It causes me a lot of problems with my sat nav because I try and look up "ul. Putka" but the full name according to my TomTom is "ulica Doktora Putka" and so I can't find it without knowing the fullname :-(

edit - spelling
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
19 Jan 2009 /  #23
What is the relevence of this case for this purpose

I'm guessing a lot of it is really down to convention more than anything. Ulica Pilsuskiego I think could be translated along the lines of Pilsudski's street (genitive / posessive) . Then again, Ulica Katowicka is also genitive and this could be because it signifies 'movement towards Katowice' or the street going to Katowice.

Then again I could just be jerking off here

Cases -


benszymanski 8 | 465  
19 Jan 2009 /  #24
Then again, Ulica Katowicka is also genitive

No, it's nominative. It's just that this is the adjectival form as we've already discussed.

But I think you are right in that Ulica Katowicka is not in the genitive because it isn't a street dedicated to Katowice, it's most likely a street heading to Katowice.

but you seem to have the right idea about meaning anyway, regardless of the grammatical term for it. That's the main thing I'm sure....

Personally I quite like grammar because I have a mathematical mind and I like knowing the reason for something being the way it is. But then I am a geek, I admit it.
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
19 Jan 2009 /  #25
Personally I quite like grammar

Well I must admit that deep down, I do like grammar but unfortunately grammar doesn't like me. Once I stopped trying to be correct with my endings, I found it a lot easier to squeeze the words out when I needed them. Polish is actually surprisingly redundant when it comes to expression - you have to screw an awful lot up before you become unintelligible.
benszymanski 8 | 465  
19 Jan 2009 /  #26
Polish is actually surprisingly redundant

Yes you are totally right.

Once I stopped trying to be correct with my endings

Don't worry, they probably just think you are Czech! Today I was asked if I am from Slovakia. Don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing!
MrBubbles 10 | 613  
19 Jan 2009 /  #27
Don't worry, they probably just think you are Czech!

well, I do sometimes introduce myself as Moldavian to give myself a more mysterious, romantic air :)
OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
20 Jan 2009 /  #28
As for liking grammar...
At first I hated it. Completely out of my comfort zone.
Now I quite like it and I have a real thirst to learn more.

I met an Irish pub owner (Tom, NIC NOWEGO, Krakow Old Town)
He'd been in Poland 11 years and I thought he was fluent. He'd speak really fast Polish to staff and customers with great confidence. Then one of the girls behind the bar told me his grammar was 'horrible'.

He'd learned parrot fashion phrases, increased his vocab by listening/nominative dictionary entries then did the best he could.
He made himself understood but I want to MASTER Polish.

Edit for this:
You bastard, Bubbles!
That PYTHON clip is PERFECT!!!!
When Chapman says 'Dative?' and Legionaire Cleese whips his sword out (to encourage him). CLASS.
Davey 13 | 388  
20 Jan 2009 /  #29
poles dont understand if you talk all in nominative trust me lol
osiol 55 | 3,921  
20 Jan 2009 /  #30
What some people forget is that English grammar uses word order a lot, and although there are times in Polish where word order does take a grammatical role, expecting Poles to understand English word order in spoken Polish is a bit like using Polish word-endings in spoken English.

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