Polish grammar exercises from hell

As I said, it's about the level of formality. I encountered persons a lot in legal circles.

I would definitely opt for "o trzech osobach" rather than "o trzech ludziach". It is even difficult to say why, but "ludziach" in this context sounds to me equally awkward as saying "kobieta razem ze swoimi trzema wujkami" instead of "wujami". Perhaps the situation here resembles the one about making a reservation of a table in a restaurant where English prefers "persons" as well.

I would not use "rozkazali" as it sounds far too strong in Polish in this context. The verb "polecili" is much better. I would also use "tamtych" instead of "tych" or would omit this personal pronoun altogether. Otherwise, your translation is excellent, Seanus.

Formally, you should use "sześcioro policjantów" and "czworgu przechodniom" as these are groups of both sexes. The reader will get additional information, but there is really no need to do this, so treating "policjantów" and "przechodniów" by their gramatical male gender is correct in my view.

Ziemowit

Actually, it was my idea that people should use sześcioro and czworgu etc, but since I didn't explicitly state that I have to blame myself. ;)

In fact, you did state that ...

Yes, it's true that I stated that the groups were of mixed sex, but I guess "policjantów" isn't technically wrong even if it's more colloquial?

Anyway, what about this wuk/wujek thing? If "wujek" sounds too informal shouldn't "ciotka" sound informal as well? Or am I mixing things up here. Which one of ciocia and ciotka is the diminutive? Hmm...

I know what you mean, Ziemowit. However, this is a grammar exercise and not semantics. Therefore, ludziach is not wrong.

Rozkazali could be right, you know how police are these days ;) ;)

Tamtych? Well, it depends if the police used their fingers to point and how close they were. A few Poles misuse tu i tam.

Lol, Scottish people from Aberdeen are renown for their ability to persevere ... :-)


If it is, then you've failed it (sześcioro, czworgu).


Now I know why I wouldn't use "ludzi" in that context. You generally use "ludzie" when you see them en masse rather than as individuals. It is most likely that here they are considered as three individuals sitting on a bench, so we see them as "osoby". In the army, however, I'm sure they would say "wysyłamy oddział w sile trzech ludzi, aby rozpoznać zamiary nieprzyjaciela". Here, the soldiers are seen simply as manpower.


Great, the good word that can replace "rozkazali" in here is in fact "kazali"!


Sure, it can be both, but it's much more likely that the bench was not close to where they were.

Sorry, it didn't need those grammatical endings at all. There are other versions and Poles often give me 5 versions for the same thing. You can rehash a sentence in many ways. It's very similar to native speakers of English with the articles a, an and the. (indefinite/definite)

Well, if they were real suspects then maybe osoby but we don't know what stage of the information gathering process it was. Maybe they were just interviewing 'people' who could have been witnesses even.

Do you know of the perfective/imperfective difference, Ziemowit? That'll show you that rozkazali is better.

This is where a native speaker of English, a good one, will win hands down. Approach has two meanings. Firstly, the one you were likely thinking of that sb comes towards you from a distance. Secondly, and the one used in criminal circles, is that the police actually came directly up to you and asked questions. I was approached means that the police came up to AND questioned me. Put that in your pipe and smoke it ;0 ;) ;)

Furthermore, if you want to get all grammatical on me ;) ;), you should note that had given should have been used/should be used in place of gave in the example sentence. Had given would make it clear that the 4 passers-by were asked first for their thoughts. Gave, when read in the context above, implies a simultaneous event. Any other reading would render 'have given' the correct answer. Unless it was taken from an American textbook ;) ;)

Ok, time for some more tricky exercises. ;)

Each question should be translated into gramatically correct and preferably formal Polish. Good luck!

1. If I hadn't wanted to eat on that day two weeks ago, I would never have bought the food.

2. Paweł was thinking about the seven violins.

3. Marek opened one door, not two.

4. The boy ran away with seven fourtythirds (7/43) of the cake.

5. She gave the children a toy each. (This translation has to start with the word "Dała")

Sorry, but it did. It was the intention of the authors of the exercise as they clearly indicated the character of the groups in brackets: "(of mixed sex)" and "(also of mixed sex)".


These are purely academic remarks which have nothing to do with the use of ludzie/osoby in this context. I'm sure I've explained it quite well by giving the example of usage in the army.


Yes, I do, Seanus. Both rozkazali and kazali are perfective. The imperfective of the former is rozkazywali. I don't know the imperfective of the latter (suggestions are welcome).

The next paragraph is an academic discussion of which I cannot grasp much.

The last paragraph refers to your doubts on rozkazali/kazali (so I should think). But since both of them are perfective, it seems to be poinless. The real difference between the two verbs is that the former is much stronger than the latter.

Ludzie is uncountable, you can't use an uncountable with a number.. osoba is countable..

You can't say 2 ludzie, 3 ludzi etc?

You can use so called "liczebniki zbiorowe" (collective numbers?) - that is dwoje, troje, you can't use ordinary numbers (I dunno if they are called ordinary numbers, but that's what springs to my mind right now ;) they are usually called just numbers ) such as dwóch, trzech.

And you can't use it with "ludzie" only with ludzi.
for instance
dwoje ludzi, troje ludzi, czworo ludzi, dziesięcioro ludzi.
You can't use it with ordinary numbers just as you can't say "dwa cukry" and so on, because these are uncountables, you can say "dwie grupy ludzi" :)

Ordinal (1st, 2nd, 3rd etc) and cardinal (1, 2, 3 etc) are the terms, frd. I've consulted my fiancee and she disagrees with you.

Nope, "liczebnik zbiorowy" is called "collective numeral" in english. Anyway I have to agree with you :). I just checked and you can say dwóch/trzech/czterech ludzi if you are talking about a group of males. You say dwoje/troje/czworo ludzi when you are talking about a mixed gender group ( males and females or females and children or males and children ).

You can't say "2 ludzie" because it's grammaticaly incorrect. You can say "dwóch ludzi"/"dwoje ludzi" or "dwie osoby". You can't use "liczebniki zbiorowe" with osoby - fi "dwoje osób"/"pięcioro osób" etc.

Sorry for misleading you.

It's also possible to say "dwaj ludzie", "trzej ludzie", etc if it's just men, right?

It certainly possible to say that, but these would not be correct.

"Wielki słownik poprawnej polszczyzny" (Great dictionary of correct polish ) disagrees.. : o
although I'm not really sure, it's strange, because "dwóch" + genetive is correct so why not "dwaj" + nominative..

Both dwaj ludzie and dwóch ludzi is correct. ("Dwoje ludzi" is also correct, it will mean a couple).
Why is it correct? Here is the dictionary explanation in Polish:

Przy rzeczownikach męskosobowych [and such are the nouns: ludzie, koledzy] używana jest forma dwaj łącząca się z mianownikiem liczby mnogiej rzeczownika: dwaj koledzy,

lub forma dopełniaczowa dwóch łącząca się w związku zgody z dopełniaczem liczby mnogiej rzeczownika: dwóch kolegów.

Obie te formy: dwaj koledzy i dwóch kolegów występują w zdaniu w funkcji podmiotu. Orzeczenie przybiera przy wyrażeniu dwaj koledzy formę liczby mnogiej: dwaj koledzy idą, dwaj koledzy szli. [Per analogiam: dwaj ludzie idą, dwaj ludzie szli.]

Przy wyrażeniu dwóch kolegów – formę liczby pojedynczej: dwóch kolegów idzie, dwóch kolegów szło. [Per analogiam: dwóch ludzi idzie, dwóch ludzi szło.]

To end this rather complicated explanation, here is a joke:
Dwóch Rosjan wraca [the verb is in the singular] z polowania dźwigając niedźwiedzia.
Dwaj Amerykanie pytają [the verb is in the plural]:
- Grizli?
- Niet, strielali...

No one feels like giving the latest exercises a shot? ;)

Seanus

Is kazać perfective or imperfective? Now it seems to me now that you were right (imperfective), although that doesn't change my view on those policemen gving their orders. Can the verb be perfective and imperfective at the same time? I'm asking myself this question, but I don't find any answer yet ....

Well, ask yourself about compound future (przyszły złożony). If kazali is perfective, it MUST have future simple. It doesn't because you have to use będę kazać (będę kazał/a), będziesz kazać/kazał/kazała itd itd. Please don't tell me that the future simple of kazać is każę because it's the present. They can't be perfective/imperfective at the same time.

Only kazali can't be perfective but think of rozkazywać and rozkać. The first is progressive and the second is a one-off action.

About the ludziach/osobach, it depends if you are focussing in on the differences between them. Collectively, they are doing the same thing (sitting and reading) so it should be ludziach. Osobach would be when you have 3 people doing different things. You have to differentiate between język potoczny (ma swoją gramatykę) and ą ę.

Please explain the policeman giving those orders as I don't see what you mean.

Any idea why different dictionaries describe it differently?


I've checked in few dictionaries and as I said earlier they all say that collective numerals plus "osoby" is incorrect - for example dwoje osób.. and so on.. You can't put everything into colloquial speech.. If I remember correctly this thread is about proper correct polish not about far fetched colloquial speech, that's why we are trying here to get to the proper way of speaking and writing.

But it's o trzech ludziach (them), NOT 3 people. The 'o' part changes things. Why can't you accept that ludziach is fine, as is osobach?

I never said anything about collective numerals acting in the way you mentioned. I've been saying ludziach all along.

Point me to my mistake.

Where have I said anything about trzech ludziach? Beside you guys constantly write 3,2 people, use words instead of numbers because it's slightly misleading.. "o trzech osobach" is perfectly fine Seanus, I never said it isn't...

You said "2 ludzie" and I wrote about all possible meaning of "2" in here because you hadn't specified that. And I added that you can't say "dwaj ludzie" because that's what my dictionary said. But in the next post I called it off - I wasn't sure the dictionary was correct.. have you read my previous posts at all? Beside I wasn't addressing your post only. I was commenting on the whole "ludzie" + numerals problem..

I think it's fine too to use 'o trzech osobach'. It doesn't appear like we have anything to argue about. 2 ludzie is not the point here. The point is the difference between osobach and ludziach and that's what I've been arguing all along.

Wielu ludzi leżących na ziemi, many people lying on the ground (I've just watched a TVN example where Poles wrote the translation from an English dialogue). They are doing the same thing, lying on the ground.

But it's something different it's a indefinite numeral... anyways I wasn't talking about these differences.. ; ) Just about 2 ludzie which you wrote earlier..

Right, well, just to be sure, I was talking about ludziach Vs osobach so we are clear now. Good :)

I know the difference between ordinal and cardinal, laddie.

Ah, here you've supplied me with the amunition that I needed, Seanus. While I never said your phrase "o trzech ludziach" is incorrect, I did say such usage is very awkward and should be avoided. "Wielu ludzi" is perfectly all right. Three is really too few to talk about them this way. I am sure that if TVN were, for example, reporting an accident they would use "trzy osoby zostały dzisiaj ranne w wypadku" or "brak jest jakichkolwiek informacji o trzech osobach zaginionych w wyniku katastrofy statku". They would never use "trzej ludzie" or "o trzech ludziach" in the above contexts, this risking to be too clumsy, although grammatically correct.

The only good context for using "trzej ludzie" or "o trzech ludziach" will be the military where they will certainly say "od wczoraj nie mamy wiadomosci o naszych trzech ludziach wysłanych na akcję"; they will never say "nie mamy wiadomości o trzech osobach wysłanych na akcję" as this would sound somewhat artificial in the army.

Well, grammatically correct is what it's all about so I guess that's that :)