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ż ź dź dż sz cz ś ć - which give most problems to foreigners?


qnicet 1 | 5  
6 Dec 2007 /  #1
Which of them (title) is the biggest problem for foreigners?
plk123 8 | 4,148  
6 Dec 2007 /  #2
you tell us.. all of those seem to be issues.. as well as ch-h; sz-rz-ż;
OP qnicet 1 | 5  
6 Dec 2007 /  #3
Well in case of ch-h i don't find .any difference. My mum was teaching me how to distinguish phonetically chleb and hak in order to write it corectly but u know... i just learnt it by heart :p

The older generation must have recognized these two sounds somehow but not mine anymore. Remember guys, the language changes... :]
Polson 5 | 1,770  
6 Dec 2007 /  #4
Which of them (title) is the biggest problem for foreigners?

I'd say "ź" and "ż" for English-speaking persons... :) The others are quite easy...actually, it depends...

ch-h

Oh ! Good you're talking about that ! I'd like to know if Poles make a difference between "h" and "ch" ? My mother told me she doesn't...
Aristoboulos 1 | 22  
6 Dec 2007 /  #5
Study in historical Slavonic grammar can help a lot. During university studies in Poland it is one year course. I don't know if there is or not such a handbook in English. But knowledge of historical development of language tells often whether it shall be ż or rz in some cases.
polishgirltx  
6 Dec 2007 /  #6
ż ź dź dż sz cz ś ć - PROBLEMS

Which of them (title) is the biggest problem for foreigners?

even Polish ppl have problems with that (with ortografia)... it's to cheer you up guys...:)
it's all i can say about it :)
OP qnicet 1 | 5  
6 Dec 2007 /  #7
Well ch as in chleb was this ch with a little bit of spit (like in arabic) and the h was smooth, like in Hull. I think this difference faded somehow and probably very few people would recognize them now. Poles (especially teens) confuse them in writing very often, which looks really terrible.
Aristoboulos 1 | 22  
6 Dec 2007 /  #8
Oh ! Good you're talking about that ! I'd like to know if Poles make a difference between "h" and "ch" ? My mother told me she doesn't...

They rather do not. For example: "chart" is kind of dog used in hunting and hart is a virtute, strength of character. No person I know makes difference in pronunciation. It is rather a dialectic or regional ability, not observed in standard Polish NOW. In 50ties or 20ties it could be quite different.

My advice: "h": is rather present in non-slavic words that occurs in Polish, like heterodoxy, hermaphrodite, helmet, humanism, hegemony etc. It's common European vocabulary.

"Ch: is rather in forms of Slavonic origin.

It is not general rule, but in most cases it works I think.
Polson 5 | 1,770  
6 Dec 2007 /  #9
Well ch as in chleb was this ch with a little bit of spit (like in arabic) and the h was smooth, like in Hull. I think this difference faded somehow and probably very few people would recognize them now. Poles (especially teens) confuse them in writing very often, which looks really terrible.

So nowadays, "h" and "ch" are pronounced the same ?...i always thought there was a difference, i thought that the "h" was softer than the "ch", til i asked my mum...

:)
polishgirltx  
6 Dec 2007 /  #10
h i ch is pronounced the same....it's the rule how to use them... you can't say the different by only hearing a word ...
Polson 5 | 1,770  
6 Dec 2007 /  #11
hearing a world

Must be scary and a bit noisy to hear the WorLd ^^ LoL kidding

Thanks for the info :)
osiol 55 | 3,922  
6 Dec 2007 /  #12
It would have to be all of the above, but let's pick on ś and sz.

I can't hear the difference and I can't really lip-read the difference.
That is unless i get someone to repeat one after the other a few times.

As most of the sounds listed are from two different positions, varying according to whether they are voiced or unvoiced, stops or whatever the opposite of stops are, there is the same problem with differenciating all of these sounds.

It helps if you're learning from someone who speaks clearly. Getting used to it pronounced clearly ought to help when you're talking to someone who doesn't and maybe even has a drink in their hand.
polishgirltx  
6 Dec 2007 /  #13
Must be scary and a bit noisy to hear the WorLd ^^ LoL kidding

Polson.... hmmm...
Polson 5 | 1,770  
6 Dec 2007 /  #14
ś and sz

"ś" is like a "sz" but kind of mixed with a "i"...it's almost an English [shi]...but i must say that the difference is not big...

:)
osiol 55 | 3,922  
6 Dec 2007 /  #15
I know how to pronounce them. I just can't hear the difference unless I'm given the other sound to compare.
Polson 5 | 1,770  
6 Dec 2007 /  #16
Polson.... hmmm...

Sorry ;P
Davey 13 | 388  
6 Dec 2007 /  #17
Well ś is kind of said with the front teeth together and sz just like the English sh, i guess?
and I think you will hear a difference if you a hear a word like 'strach' compared to a word like 'marihuana'
I as found Polish actually easier to pronounce than a lot of languages because what's written is exactly what is said with no acceptions unlike English with silent letters.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
6 Dec 2007 /  #18
as found Polish actually easier to pronounce than a lot of languages because what's written is exactly what is said with no acceptions

ch - c is silent

ę, ą, ź, ż, ć, dź etc are pronounced in a few various forms depending on their proximity to other sounds.
Michal - | 1,865  
7 Dec 2007 /  #19
Probably one of the hardest differences for foreign people is the difference between sz and si because there is a difference but most text books describe the sounds as being really very much the same. Mind you, in practice, I doubt if someone listening would really notice an error.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
7 Dec 2007 /  #20
Mind you, in practice, I doubt if someone listening would really notice an error.

A native Polish speaker would easilly notice the error.
Michal - | 1,865  
7 Dec 2007 /  #21
Just like foreign people use the sound 'z' for a 'th' and it sounds dreadful.
plk123 8 | 4,148  
7 Dec 2007 /  #22
Study in historical Slavonic grammar can help a lot. During university studies in Poland it is one year course. I don't know if there is or not such a handbook in English. But knowledge of historical development of language tells often whether it shall be ż or rz in some cases.

knowledge of russian surely helps in most instances

It would have to be all of the above, but let's pick on ś and sz.

sz is exactly like sh.. to pronounce ś.. start with the sh sound and then flatten your tongue and move the lower jaw slightly forward.. kind of like underbite a little.. teeth almost together and vertically lined up.

ę, ą, ź, ż, ć, dź etc are pronounced in a few various forms depending on their proximity to other sounds.

nope.. always the same

A native Polish speaker would easilly notice the error.

definitely.. ś and sz are not even close, really.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
7 Dec 2007 /  #23
nope.. always the same

really?
try: gęba and tędy
or: więk and w gołole

sz is exactly like sh

very close, but not identical. English "sh" is somewhere between Polish "sz" and "ś".
plk123 8 | 4,148  
7 Dec 2007 /  #24
very close, but not identical. English "sh" is somewhere between Polish "sz" and "ś".

nope... it's the same sound

really?
try: gęba and tędy
or: dźwięk and w gołoledź

yeah.. same sounds here too. maybe you pronounce those differently but you shouldn't.. i can also see the adjacent letter sounds may be confusing you but in the end those are exactly the same sounds.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
7 Dec 2007 /  #25
I thought that some sounds tend to be pulled by the sounds adjacent to them.
This can be heard in the voicing or de-voicing of some consonants, for example.
It might have just been someone's accent I used to hear, but I have definately heard words such as 'cześć' where the 'e' has been pulled into a slight dipthong.

I do tend to think of English 'sh' as being somewhere between 'ś' and 'sz'.
plk123 8 | 4,148  
7 Dec 2007 /  #26
i pronounce sh and sz exactly the same because they are. :)

as to the other part osiol, i think you're just hearing the other letters and maybe they are masking the vowel but that vowel should be pronounced the same in all words.
?????  
7 Dec 2007 /  #27
I do tend to think of English 'sh' as being somewhere between 'ś' and 'sz'.

Yes the English “sh” is close to polish “si”

i pronounce sh and sz exactly the same because they are. :)

They are not the same sound
osiol 55 | 3,922  
7 Dec 2007 /  #28
i pronounce sh and sz exactly the same because they are. :)

You speak some sort of American English as a second language, don't you?

What about £.

It is usually said to resemble the English 'W', but I have also read that by some speakers (maybe when speaking very clearly? certain dialects? old people?) it can be pronounced as a very dark L, tending towards W, rather like the one found in the English of Southeast England when L is found before a consonant or in a post-vocalic setting (I might have got the right term there). For me, in these settings, it is often easier to pronounce £ this way, otherwise the W sound is easier.

Which of the two is better, Dr. Polish? (whoever that is)
?????  
7 Dec 2007 /  #29
I have no idea because I’m not familiar with British English and their dialects.
I only know American English.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
7 Dec 2007 /  #30
I only know American English

Imagine the difference between the two different L sounds in the word 'Little'
If there is no difference to you, then it's not so easy to explain.
If there is some difference, then just try exagerrating that difference.
For the second L, try moving the tip of the tongue further back in the mouth, and don't let it make contact with the roof of the mouth. You have just made that L 'dark'.

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